I’m new to waterstones and am confused about grit size.
Given a choice of a combination stone of grit 250/1,000 or 1,000/6,000 which would serve me best? I currently use a soft grinding wheel followed by a fine grade oil stone and this is usually satisfactory. Would I get a better result from one of the above waterstones – which one?
I’ve read Jefferson Kolle’s article in Fine Woodworking no. 140 where he suggests starting with 1,200, followed by 2,400 and finally 6,000.
As a newcomer to waterstones should I experiment with the 250/1,000 or 1,000/6,000?
Fred in UK
Replies
Fred,
Several months ago, after reading the fine woodworking article you mentioned, I went out with about $300 dollars in my pocket to stock up on Norton stones..and do it poperly. I was still confused about water, oil and diamonds..as well as India, Arkansas, Japanese..and let not forget paste and leather strops....wheh!
Long story short, I ended up in the automotive supply house and bought sandpaper up to 2000 grit. I came home and attached (with spray glue) various grits starting with 150 and going up to 2000 to some 8x12 pieces of glass I had in the shop....no special float glass. It works great..cost about $20-30 bucks and that will last several years.
If I bought a bunch of stones who says they are perfectly flat? if I take a diamond stone to the waterstone..what, all of a sudden I can make that waterstone perfectly flat? Just a few thoughts....
250 - takes out nicks in the blade
1000 - use on a blade that needs sharpening but is in otherwise good shape
4000 - puts a very sharp edge on a usable blade
6000 - puts a razor edge on a blade that is already sharp
8000 - not so significantly different from a 6000 to be worth buying. To experiment you can get a pocket-sized stone in 8000 and see for yourself.
Waterstones require frequent flattening. This is done with a piece of glass and silicon carbide paper, using 400, 600 or 1000 grit (these grit sizes have nothing to do with waterstone grit sizes).
Ben,
Thanks for quantifying waterstone grit sizes. That was just what I wanted.
Thanks again,
Fred.
To reinforce what Ben said, you have to be very careful about flattening waterstones. They wear very quickly, and of course once the stone is not flat it cannot put a flat edge on your tools. I went through lots of grief and mess with waterstones, thinking this was the price of being a "real" woodworker, until I read an article about sandpaper on glass. That's where I've been every since.
I am another sandpaper convert. Used waterstones for years but flettening them gets tiresome. Sandpaper is fast, reliable and cheap.
I have 1000/4000 combo waterstone and a 8000 grit king stone and they sharpen beautifully, flattening is easy I use a n old diamond stone. I have had hese for yrs and they have yrs left on them. I actually want to upgrade to sharpton ceramic stones as I am hearing how much better these are and FASTER cutting. I dont think I want to deal with scary sharp method except for flattening plane soles.
my opinion
I have the Norton 4000/8000, and is pretty much all I use. I have heard good things about the Shaptons as well. The stones work better than sandpaper on glass for me. I still have sandpaper on glass to flatten my stones, and I use AL-Zi to flatten all plane bodies. If they made Al-Zi sandpaper in fine grits, I might go back to SS, but it just wears out too fast for me, and the stones leave a flatter surface and slip less.
Tom
One other option to consider that was mentioned in the FWW article but not discussed in detail is ceramic stones. Most of the ceramic stones that are commonly seen in the catalogs are too small, but Spyderco makes ceramic bench stones in 3 grits. Medium, fine and ultra fine. I believe that the ultra fine is on the order of 6000-8000 grit. A tool edge touched up with the ultra fine will shine with a mirror like sheen. I don't know how to equate the medium and fine grits, but I'm guessing about 1000 and 2-3000, respectively
I prefer the ceramics to oil, water or diamond stones. They can be used wet or dry, they are capable of putting a finer edge on a tool than a diamond stone and they stay flat. The only downside is availability. I was disappointed that the sharpening article didn't include these in the testing.
http://www.spyderco.com/
Dear Kurt, Now that I've seen your contribution, I'm ready to drop everything and 'go ceramic'!I looked at the Spyderco website that you suggested and have now found similar stones on offer by Axminster Tools here in UK. They are about 31 pounds sterling - obviously cheaper than in US (surprisingly!). Thanks for your intervention with ceramics - you have sent me in an unexpected direction. One point - ceramics must surely wear unflat eventually? Fred at Kington in UK.
ps. to all other list contributors on this topic my thanks - is there anyone else able to speak up for ceramics? Surely there must be some disadvantages?
FP
My combination Japanese water stone broke into two halves about 18 months or so back. It's still usable for smaller tools, but it meant I needed a new stone. I went to the local tool shop and was just about to purchase a similar Japanese combination when I spotted the expensive ceramic offerings.
I'd heard of their reputation for staying flat for long periods, and their ability to produce a fine edge, so I coughed up and walked out with a 'coarse' and 'medium' stone thinking I'd go back for the fine stone if I liked what I'd bought. I've never been back for that fine stone because I've not yet found a need for it.
Usually, I just 'top up' the edge on the 'coarse' stone, flip the tool back and forth on the palm of the hand as a final stropping, and get back to work. Every now and then-- final planing of a table top for e.g., I feel a need for something a bit better, and hit the iron with the medium stone after the coarse stone before again doing the flipping on the palm of the hand trick. This seems to work just fine, and my chisels almost never get close to the medium stone.
So, in conclusion, I've come to like the ceramic stones, but they did take a little while to settle in, and for me to get used to them. I noticed with the medium stone that there was a slight raised lip at one edge when new, but I managed to knock that off fairly quickly. They are a little strange to use at first because they are very flat and the abrasive surface doesn't 'give' to accomodate a curved iron as a soft Japanese stone does.
If the cutting edge of your iron has inadvertantly developed a curve, you have to hone away until you get a straight cutting edge, if that's what you're after. Some of my plane irons deliberately have a slight crown or curve, and I find this easy enough to maintain with a bit of blade rocking as I sharpen. Yes, I've developed a distinct liking for them, and I don't now mind having dumped the 40 odd $$'s per stone to buy them-- that's not much different to £30. Now, when they do develop a hollow, as I guess they must eventually do, I've no idea how I'll get them flat again, ha, ha!! Maybe it would be cheaper to buy new ones. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Sgian,
Thanks enormously.
I'm on my way to becoming a ceramic.
Fred.
FP,
It's certainly true that a water stone needs to be flattened frequently; but doing so needs to be neither difficult nor odious.
I spent sixty-some dollars on the "stone flattening stone" or whatever it's called (the one that looks like a brick with diagonal channels). Before I got that tool I didn't flatten my stones nearly as often as I should, with the inevitable consequences on my edge tools. Digging out my piece of plate glass, finding the spray adhesive and the proper grits of paper--which too often meant a trip to the hardware store--along with the mess it made, meant that too often I let it go.
The flattening brick changed all that. It's so quick and easy I no longer hesitate to flatten my stones. Now I always flatten my softer stones at least every twenty minutes or so.
You don't really need the flattening brick. I have a friend that flattens his stones on the poured concrete floor of his garage; and I've seen it done with a plane old, gray concrete block.
So don't let flattusaphobia scare you away from water stones.
Alan
To flatten one of these soft stones, just rub it on what's called in the UK a breeze block, and known in the US (I think) as a cinder block-- it's a rough concrete thing about 15" long by about 8" or 9" deep with a big hole at either end, and these things are used to build walls.
Before you rub your waterstone in an effort to flatten it, just check the block for flatness with a straight edge to make sure it's something like. They are usually pretty reliably flat, but the odd one is way out. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
O.K.... So I've just sharpened to the utmost and I take my first cut... Do I stop and resharpen because its no longer as sharp as when I started... I think not. IMHO you are wasting fine woodworking time just trying to have the best/sharpest tools. If you/we would only take time to learn the tools you/we have, we would be suprised at the results we can achieve with what might be considered mediocre.
This statement is made because I've too often succomed to the stigma of ultimate perfection and inadequate production.
S
Well, that's true no one. You can sharpen until a falling feather will split into two halves on the better than razor sharp, invisible, edge of your freshly freshly honed tool if a worker wants to waste their time getting their tools this good-- I mostly don't bother. Just a few strokes over a medium grit ceramic stone gets me up and running again for average work.
After the first pass of your freshly perfect plane, the tool is inevitably on its way towards blunt. My cutting edge tools are seldom perfect throughout their useful working life before it's time to resharpen. If the truth is to be told, my plane irons, for example, are almost never at their peak condition, since they are always somewhere between freshly sharpened, and too dull to any longer be effective.
There's a lot of tosh talked about sharpening tools, As a working furniture maker, I don't really have too much time to get all excited about the subject-- sharpen, use it, blunt it, resharpen, use again, etc.. It's a normal cycle, and the edge seldom needs to be perfect. That's what scrapers, sandpaper, and other aids are for-- to make the compromise, and for me to make a profit to pay the bills. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
Sgian, thanks for backing me up on this one. Truth be told, its not allways the sharpest tool that brings home the bucks. Spoken from a true wood worker. Respect is a given.
Oh by the way, I have a full set of ceramics. I've been using them for some 10 years now and the only thing I've found that even gets close to them is the new diamonds or the old sand paper trick. All in all, the trick is to get the job done and get back to work and I think the ceramics are just the ticket for that. That's just my opinion.
Edited 11/17/2002 1:40:32 AM ET by no one
I spend a good deal of time getting a plane iron in shape- flattening the back, grinding the bezel, and honing the edge- but once I have that initial output through with, it is no big deal to sharpen up to 8000 grit on my waterstones. It probably only takes me about 15-30 seconds to dip the stone in water, flip it over and take a couple swipes on the working end.
I agree that you don't need the sharpest edge possible for a lot of things, but when it's so easy, why not do it. When I'm finish planing some curly maple, I will be sure to do an extra good job, and probably make sure to rehone my edges more often. I'm not trying to say my plane irons could win a sharpness contest, I'm just saying that instead of risking a tear out when finish planing, I would prefer to spend two minutes honing the blade instead. Maybe this is what you're saying too, I'm not really sure.
Tom
Big Country and Dave you both make extremely valid points. I for one seem to be able to take a lighter stroke and reduce the tear out/cut problems. I don't now, maybe I've just learned a different method than you guy's.
My point about this whole thread was that sometimes we get way beyond what is required to do the job. A sharp tool is definitly a joy to work with but at what point have we gone from working to ridiculous.
I still remember when I was in the Navy. The enginemen had the sharpest knives but really had no use for a sharp knive. The deck folks had the crappy dull knives that were sharpened with a file but they used them day in and out.
But hey, who am I to know. I'm the guy that sharpens his utility knife blades. Don't think I don't catch heck for that!
LOL no one. I know what you mean; kinda like taking a chainsaw to a shrubbery. I think I was just feeling disagreeable yesterday.
Tom
Ditto what Tom said... I agree with your call for balance, and was just adding-on. As far as taking big cuts, that was just (youthful - ha!) impatience. I've since learned to take my time, to keep my tools sharp, and to make sure my fingers are behind the blade/edge! :-)
DavidLook, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
<snip>
I've since learned to take my time, to keep my tools sharp, and to make sure my fingers are behind the blade/edge! :-)
<snip>
Well, that is a good creedo to work by. It was a good day when I realized with both hands behind a sharp chisel, it was hard to cut myself...although I now have a chisel that likes to jump off the rack and into my arm...
Tom
Tom, do you really have one of those goofy chisles..? Me too... LOL. darn two cherries chisles just seem to get offended when you put them in that plastic wall mounted stanley chisle rack.
Haha! well, my two cherries stay put alright, its my grandpa's Buck Bros. chisel that jumps out at me. I didn't have a drill bit big enough for the ferrule, so it doesn't seat too well...That or my grandfather wants his chisel back!
Tom
Tom, most likely its the later... keep em and keep em happy!
While I agree with you and Sgian about the need to balance time spent sharpening with time spent producing, I do want to throw one more thought into the mix and point out that (in my experience) a sharper blade is a safer blade, especially when it comes to chisels.
Of course, my technique has much improved, but early on I never cut myself on a sharp chisel. When sharp, the cuts are made smoothly and with relatively little effort. Once they get dull, however, you often make a choice between forcing the cut or taking a little time to re-sharpen. Tending toward the former, in the past, I regularly slipped and if I didn't stab myself, I usually took an unwanted nick out of whatever I was working on.
David (still with his original eight fingers and two thumbs)Look, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled