New to woodwork and not sure what to buy to get project done
Hello there,
Apart from those of you that have had wood working skills handed down to them I guess most of us will have been in my position? Although I could be wrong!
I need to make some shelves to hold glasses and other stuff in a horsebox that’s been converted to a bar. I can turn my hands to most things given the time and internet videos. This site is great and will be really useful and interesting even after this project as I plan to spend more time wood working. I purchased Mike Pecovich’s book which is good reading and I plan to start making furniture as soon as I have these shelves finished. If I enjoy it as much as I think I will I will convert a single garage into a shop. (It’s not really a garage any more it’s currently a cinema but doesn’t get used enough)
Anyway…I’m waffling……Where do I start? The shelves are 2000 x 900 and split into 3 vertical sections with the middle section having one shelf whilst the other sections have two. So a top, two sides and a base. I was thinking of using some sort of butt joint for the corner joints unless otherwise educated? And not sure at all how to fix the shelves themselves.
I thought about using my local DIY shops Whitewood PSE 18mm as we are trying to keep the price down for the job. My wife would then stain the wood. One of her specifications is that the top shelf has an interesting front edge to it. Like a simple rounded edge or if not to difficult something slightly more decorative. But rounded will do! I had entertained the idea of buying a router to do this and also to make wine glass hangers. These would be a router cut the same width and depth as the base of the wine glass so the glasses slide in and out.
I pretty much don’t have any hand tools worth talking about. Anybody care to suggest what I need? I also don’t have a bench! So was thinking a workmate of some sort and then my second project as I don’t have time to make it my first will be to build a bench.
My next post will be where do you buy decent hand tools that will last if they are looked after? I’m sure the rabbit hole is looking very long and deep.
Sorry for the long post….and cheers in advance to anyone who can help.
Replies
There are lots of articles on Fine Woodworking about what tools to have. I suggest you do a search. I don't think there is a do it all tool to buy and you will need several to start. However, a router with several bits is very versatile but still not the only tool you will want to have. Mike's book is also a good start and I suggest you buy a copy of Peter Korn's book "Basic Woodworking" and follow the process layed out in his book. Peter Korn is the executive director of the "Center for Furniture Craftsmanship" and the book is the textbook for their basic woodworking class. If you can master what is in the book you are well on your way. Wishing you good fortune and fun.
Hi hotdogman.
Thank you for the Peter Korn book recommendation. I have bought it now and since your post have read quite a bit! Really useful. The projects are great and Peter lists what tools you’ll need. I think that has put me in a very sound direction to start my woodworking. I have a week to practice before I need to build the shelves. I might end up using dovetails for the shelves now. :-)
Thanks again.
I would start with tools that have multiple uses.
You will always find a workmate handy.
A circular saw and two quick grip clamps, a cordless drill and bits are all you need for plain shelves.
A router will put any number of nice edges on and is way cheaper and more versatile than a hand plane which will also need a minimum of $200 worth of sharpening gear.
The key to combining woodwork with a good relationship is only buying tools you need for each project but making sure you pick projects that require a new tool! See darling, I used that new router and bit set to put an interesting edge on...
:-) and also when darling says when did you get that new router? Noooo I’ve had that for years! Good tips thank you Rob. Is a workmate stable enough for woodworking and larger pieces or sheets that need cutting?
Yes, a workmate is fine though for larger sheets you may need two.
If I am using a big bit of sheet, I will usually trim the offcuts with a circ saw whilst the sheets are still in, or balanced across my trailer.
More complex cuts are done with some sacrificial scrap 4x2 or 2x2 on the ground. You need one piece across about each foot of cut (30cm to the non-heathens) of each cut. Set your circ saw to cut through the board and just into the support timbers.
This project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHpFGtBsl9k
Can be built with minimal tools and is well worth the effort if you plan to do a lot of sheet work. I didn't bother making one as I find the floor dimensioning easy and it's a choice of what will fit - the sheet cart or a big assembly table - the assembly table is going to win!
Ok. Thanks for tips. I’ll have a look at the link. I’m going to work through Peter Korns projects in his book which are pretty much basics training but looking forward to getting stuck in.
Thanks again.
I am glad you are finding the book helpful. It will help you through the learning curve and build your confidence. Don't get too discouraged when the screw up fairy visits. That will always be part of the process from time to time. So practice practice practice and you will be better for it. The projects in the book build skills and also teaches how things are put together. Just one more thing. Pay close attention to how to sharpen your hand tools, very important and you will be rewarded for getting the process of sharpening down. Good luck to you.
Fine Woodworking has a good video series “Getting Started in Woodworking”. I’d also watch those. They’ll answer a lot of your original questions.
@hotdogman, you should be fairly safe, she seems to live in my workshop....
Thanks for all the posts so far....Ash, Rob, Tim and Hotdog...….
So I've made a list of tools that I need to do the exercises In Peter Korn's book.
Mortise and Tenon exercise:
Folding rule
Mortise Gauge
Marking Knife
Mallet
1/4 inch, 1/2 inch and 1 inch chisel
1/4 inch brad point drill bit
and for Dovetails:
Cutting Gauge
Sliding T bevel
Dovetail saw
coping saw
block plane
That's quite a few tools! £££$$$£££ just to get into the exercises :-)
How do people get into WW on a budget?
The tools Mr Korn reaches for are there for the lifting.. in his well-equipped shop. The gauges and ruler can all be replaced by a combination square, the drills are not really needed at all. any knife will do, or just a pencil. You'll need a backsaw for both the tenons and the dovetails. Waste can be chiseled out if you don't have a coping saw and you can make a single-angle bevel gauge for your dovetail layout out of scraps with the tools named below.
So: Saw, combo square, 1/4 & 1" chisels, mallet (old hammer?), pencil.
You should add a way to sharpen the chisels. I think I've been to garage sales where the whole lot could be had for $10.
MJ
Thanks for reply. That makes it easier and other tools can come at a later time. For garage sales or car boot sales I guess you have to have a good idea about what you’re buying? You could end up with tools that are at end of life and no amount of TLC on a stone is going to help?
Avoid pitted steel and make sure the square is really square...that's about it to start. Don't buy a dull saw, a sharp one will last a long time and by then you will understand more of what you are looking for. Don't worry, we all buy bad tools and learn from them.
thanks MJ....how do you test for a dull saw......draw blood?
If a tooth will take a shaving from a fingernail it should be good. Since I am right handed the blood test is usually on my left side. My right hand has been trying to kill my left hand for over 40 years!
Brilliant! Haha...I look forward to letting you know how I get on testing saws.
I think a pre requisite is probably a tetanus jab!
So I have to make a choice before the weekend. you've all been really helpful so far....crunch time now. I need to make these shelves 2000mm x 900mm x 17mm is the outer dimension (Sounds like a sci fi movie). They will be split into 3 vertically with One shelf in the middle section and two either side. Not really any great weight going on them as they will be used to hang glasses.
I was thinking Housing dado joints? A joint fit for purpose I think unless anyone tells me different? Reasonably easy with a sharp chisel. I watched a great video from Paul Sellers and feel confident I can do these with limited practice and limited time.
Hard to speak to the joinery w/o more info or a sketch. Dados are ok for small shelves bearing little weight though. I'm guessing eyeglasses at only 17mm deep?
HOLD EVERYTHING - I'm usually first up in the world due to being in NZ so hopefully this gets to you before the start of your weekend...
Just thought.
2000*900. That's a VERY deep shelf.
Yes, housing Dados will be fine as supports at the back, but that is not enough to hold such large shelves up.
You will find that it sags under it's own weight if supported only the way you describe. Also it will be very difficult to reach the back of any of the shelves once they are together. 900mm is longer than most people's arms.
A shelf that deep would require vertical supports at or very near the front of the shelf- I'd suggest every third of the width. You MIGHT get away with full-depth supports at the joints, but that would make the corners very inaccessible. You can span about 600mm reliably with 17mm thick boards and up to 1.2m if not loaded or very lightly loaded, though you'd want to stiffen the front edge.
If buying brackets, then you want to support at least 2/3 of the shelf on the bracket.
Also, I second @ _MJ_'s line on the tools to use. You don't need most of what you listed, but if you buy chisels, you also need at the very least a honing guide and some wet/dry sandpaper in 600,800,1000 and 2000 grit, spray adhesive and some thick old glass (ideally) or a really flat tile to stick it to.
Good Luck
MJ and ROB
Thanks for reply’s
Probably confused by my sizing. The shelves are 2m across and .9m high in total. They are about 17cm deep and 18mm thick depending on what I buy from the builders merchants. Possibly dodgy terminology.
It will already be planed and square edge to make my life easy.
:-) 170mm deep is fine.
Be careful how you design and cut your dadoes though.
I am no engineer, but for what it is worth this may help a bit:
The problem you may face is that the force on the joint is proportional to:
1. The width of the shelf
2. The weight loading on the shelf (including the weight of the shelf itself)
3. The depth of the dado.
4. The thickness of the shelf.
If you imagine loading your shelf to destruction, what happens is that the shelf pivots around the point where the bottom lip of the dado touches the shelf. The back edge of the shelf will try to describe an arc, and this is constrained by the top of the dado.
The force applied to the top of the dado is equal to the total weight of the shelf and it's load, multiplied by the ratio of the width to the depth of the dado.
Consider your shelf. 170mm wide. 10 Kg load, 17mm thick, 17mm dado. The force acting on the back corner of the shelf is 170/17 X 10 = 100Kg
The lower lip of the dado also experiences the same force.
In this case, where depth of dado is equal to thickness, the problem is compounded because the force is applied only to a tiny sliver of the timber, right at the edge where it is weakest. That 100Kg of force is applied to perhaps 25 sqmm of wood at most, assuming a 50mm wide support. 4 MILLION Kg/SqM, or about 5700PSI.
This huge force will compress and splinter the wood, causing the shelf to pull out.
Now, if you make the dado deeper, every extra mm shares the load. Making that dado 20mm spreads the load over 6 times as much area AND most of that wood is stronger.
Now you have 170/20 x 10 = 85 Kg loading AND you are sharing that over an extra 3mm = 175 sqmm. The total loading drops to 485,000 Kg/SqM or 690 PSI. Just 3mm extra depth reduced the loading by over 8 times.
These assume that you have cut your dadoes perfectly and that there is no gap. If there is a gap, then the corner of the shelf will again be loaded and will crumple until enough wood takes the load or the shelf fails.
Bear with me for one last example.
Now you screw a 50mm triangular piece of timber under the dado. This increases the effective depth of the dado by 50mm, but you still have the same area of timber being compressed.
170/70 = 24.2 Kg loading force on the back of the dado. This will reduce the force by a factor of 3.5 times - now we are down to under 200 PSI - not something you want your fingers trapped in but not going to fail any time soon, even if you stumble and grab the shelf.
In summary: Deeper dadoes really help, small RIGID brackets with dadoes make a difference.
Insetting the shelf so that the back of the shelf touches the wall will also help, but only by reducing the length of the shelf. Make the dadoes as deep as you can.
Thank god you’re not an engineer ! The formulas are wrong, the units are wrong and the results....the actual pressure exerted by a 10Kg load placed on one end of 7 inches wide, 3/4 inch thick shelve glued in a 1/2 inch deep dado is just shy of 2 psi.
Back to the topic, I suggest you purchase a tablesaw to cut your dado and planks to length, it will comme in handy for your next project, the workbench.
@gulfstar :-)
Please explain.
As I see it, the shelf pivots around the bottom lip of the dado.
A 100N load placed at a ratio of 10:1 of the way along a pivot will exert a force of 1000N in the opposite direction by simple leverage.
In the specific case of a dado exactly the depth of the stock width, this bears almost all the load on a very narrow strip of timber, which is why such shallow dadoes are not good for free edge shelving.
As I said, not an engineer, but the physics seems pretty sound to me.
I converted to PSI for the US market.
Would you rely on a 17mm dado in this case?
Yes I would use a 17mm dado. Retired mechanical engineer, worked in large furniture making plants (1,000,000 bd.ft/year usage) started woodworking 52 years ago. This is a shelve, not a cantilever beam, there is no moment at the ends, simply gravity that pulls down. The force is applied to the glue joint, its area is the top, end and bottom of the dado area (12 in2) , there is no pivot. the weight is 22 pounds (10kg) this amounts to 1,8 psi.
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