Replies

1. 
   ring | Sep 16, 2005 10:23am | #1

   dear SOH,

   As time has proven, there is nothing wrong with "an 1805 design".  In the end it is just a matter of taste.   I like the feel of a wooden drawer running on a wooden glide.  But professionally, my shop uses Blum undermount slides by the hundreds.  Are they better?  They're better for the shop that needs to turn them out and can't be bothered with playing around to fit each drawer individually.   It's a great bit of engineering, in my opinion.   If the piece is for personal use, make a personal decision.  Both ways are fine.

   DR

1. 
   SqueezeOutHater | Nov 10, 2005 12:34am | #16

   Ahh yes.  The drawers are great.  The cherry fronts are 1/2 blind DTd to the poplar sides, while the backs are through DTd.  The bottoms are 1/2" ply and I only over routed one drawer side which made a little unsightly gap on 1 drawer. 

   I went total old school.  The "slipit" slick stuff works great and the little animal knobs are a big hit with the wife too.  I even got a racing stripe going across the top and down the sides!  I will attach pics when I get home. 

   Thanks for the advice. 

   SOH

2. 
   AlanTurner | Sep 16, 2005 12:04pm | #2

   Squeeze --
   I am in favor of traditional drawers. To me they are worth the effort, and represent one of the best reasons to hand make furniture. The feel of shellaced wood on wood, waxed, is terrific. Such a drawer can be as smooth as a bearing guided system. And, you don't have to give away room in the box for the hardware. Heirlooms do not have metal slides, IMHO.

   Drawers are not an easy thing to build, but I thoroughly enjoy the process. Sharpen up your planes and go for it.

   Richard Jones, of this forum, now in the UK, wrote that for traditional drawers, without adornment, he allowed 8 hours per drawer for building and fitting. I did not believe it at first, but now I do. 8 hours is about right, and well worth it.

   Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

1. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 17, 2005 06:15pm | #9

   Liuke Alan posted..If you can 'fit' the drawer WAX is MORE that OK..You said ALOT of use.. Ever see a really old well used piece wher the drawers still fit perfect... A few but not many.

3. 
   hammer1 | Sep 16, 2005 05:39pm | #3

   I often end up repairing old furniture. It has usually been "repaired" in the past. The experience has me questioning traditional drawer construction techniques. I can tell you that metal in any form, nails, screws and hardware will not stand the test of time. The same can be said for glued joints. Most of the dovetailed drawers, with 1/2" sides that are ploughed for the bottoms, don't last either. I took some pictures of some drawers I recently had to "fix". I was hoping to use them to start a discussion about the myths associated with traditional drawer construction.

   Dovetails only hold in one direction. As time goes by and the wood expands and contracts, these often get pushed out. The drawer sides often break or crack where the groove for the bottoms are cut. Thin bottoms bow down and often pull out of the sides. Nails and screws that are used at the back of the bottom work loose. The bottom of the sides get worn from riding on guides, the guides get worn or fall out.

   If I used dovetails, I would pin them vertically. I'd rather use a dovetail dado or a sliding lock joint at the drawer face, same at the back. A dovetailed, wood center slide will keep the drawers from running on the sides as well as keep it centered and square with the opening. It would help to prevent tip out, too. The better pieces of furniture I've worked on use these. This is where you would use the Slipit. The center slides would also give some needed support in the center of the bottom. With a plywood bottom, I would plough the drawer back and not just keep it above the bottom. I think a shallow dovetail dado and some slightly thicker sides would also stand up better over the years for the bottom. You don't have the issue of expansion and contraction that was common with solid wood bottoms.

   If I ever get the time, I will post some pictures of drawers that have lasted and hopefully open a discussion of techniques that will pass the 200 year test. The couple of pictures below show, how a drawer that runs on it's sides, will wear. They also show how a previous owner tried to repair them.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

   
1. 
   JohnH | Sep 16, 2005 06:12pm | #4

   Amen to what you say, hammer1!

   I have owned at least seven chests of drawers from the mid-1800s. In buying them, I have examined at least ten times as many. That experience taught me that it is common for at least one of the drawers to have the dovetails broken and it is common that at least one of the drawers will not slide smoothly from wear. Wood-on-wood is prettier, but it wears out faster than metal slides. I am building my fourth chest of drawers; they all use Accuride ball bearing slides.

2. 
   donkey | Sep 16, 2005 06:19pm | #5

   I understand the idea of "built" to last, using the metal hardware.  But looking at the "repaired" parts that you show, they sure have a lot more "character" than a galvanized, stainless, or brushed surface (they dont build up a patina, etc).  I guess what I am saying is heirloom (read one off) or production have different needs for the owner.  So in 100-150 years, "repairing" a hand made dovetail or split side will give someone the same rush/sense of accomplishment that it does to me or others right now...or just replace the metal hardware on the other ones.

   My two cents,

    

   Donkeyeww...don't poke me there, it hurts.

3. 
   SqueezeOutHater | Sep 17, 2005 12:24am | #6

   Hammer1 et al -

   Thanks!  I like the idea of pinning the DTs top down and I was already planning to use 3/4 stock for the drawers! 

   Shellac on wax is in the lead at this point and yes all the dividers will be sliding dovetailed to the case.  The idea of somebody repairing this piece in 100 years is cool to think about.  It will probably go for $6.00 at a garage sale...the same cost as 1.15 bf of the cherry drawer fronts!

   SOH

1. 
   SgianDubh | Sep 17, 2005 01:30am | #8

   SqueezeOutHater-- what an interesting handle-- you might find the 3/4" stock you  are planning on using a bit lumpen looking for the drawer sides and back thickness, although 3/4" is usually fine for fronts. It all depends a bit on the overall size of the drawer opening and drawer itself.

   Slimmer sides of course would mean more rapid wear on their bottom edge because there's naturally less wood in contact with the runners. To overcome that tendency furniture makers of old came up with a cunning solution, i.e., slips.

   Here's a link to something wot I writ a wee while back that might help. Slainte.

   http://curve.phpwebhosting.com/~luka/articles/drawers/rjones1.html Richard Jones Furniture

1. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 17, 2005 06:18pm | #10

   I just loved that post! Thanks...A drawer like this takes a skilled craftsman between seven and eight hours to make and to shoot in precisely to the drawer opening. If multiples of similar drawers of this basic pattern are made the time element can be brought down to about 6-1/2 hours per drawer. Staining and polishing procedures take about another hour. 6-1/2 hours per drawer.?? LOL.. really funnyStaining and polishing procedures take about another hour.
   LOL also.. me about 6-1/2 hours...

1. 
   SgianDubh | Sep 19, 2005 01:51am | #12

   I know Will. It's far too fast for some, and a wee bit too slow for others, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

2. 
   Ricks503 | Sep 19, 2005 11:16pm | #13

   The interesting thing about that article is that while on page 1 he talks about the Slips, later it shows him using metal slides.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

3. 
   SgianDubh | Sep 20, 2005 02:32am | #14

   Ricks, I did use metal slides in my illustrated example. The first page was an introduction to traditional drawer making which was intended to show that there are always options available.

   The stack of drawers could have been made with the configuration of sliding between wooden runners and kickers, but the customer had specific preferences, i.e., fully extending contemporary slides.

   As ever, I take a pragmatic attitude to furniture design, and I make what the customer wants to pay for. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

4. 
   Ricks503 | Sep 20, 2005 03:51pm | #15

   Did not mean to criticize - I did a quick one thru on the post - thought it was an article on traditional cabinet making with an example of piece you made.

   Customers - aren't they just the bane of the true craftsman - wanting things made their way!    LOL1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

5. 
   Patto | Nov 10, 2005 01:58am | #17

   Sgain,

   The thing I like about that estimate is that it makes me feel less a goose when it takes 10.

   Dave

   (just a simple infantryman)

4. 
   notDusty | Sep 17, 2005 01:08am | #7

       SOH ,

                      What I learned when I apprenticed in a restoration and reproduction shop was , Make the wood that the drawer slides on softer then the drawer , so the drawer will not wear out .

                 regards                dusty

1. 
   SqueezeOutHater | Sep 17, 2005 11:46pm | #11

   I would like to thank everyone for their help.  Richard that was a great article.  I need to log off and get to it...6 drawers x 8+ hours each... 

   Cheers

   SOH