Replies

1. 
   camel | Jun 06, 2002 03:22pm | #1

     I wouldn't say it's too much.  Hell, if you've got the money and space, then get yourself a nice cabinet saw.  No I don't have any reccomendations.  I've got an Uni saw w/ a Biesmeyer fence system and have no complaints.  I think if I had to do it all over, I'd buy an general though.  Good luck.

2. 
   camel | Jun 06, 2002 03:24pm | #2

     I forgot, I do have one regret.  I wish I'd of went with the 5hp instead of the 3hp.  There's been situations where the extra power would've been nice.

3. 
   forestgirl | Jun 06, 2002 07:46pm | #3

   I'm an almost-new woodworker, and have a Jet 10" contractors saw.  If you have the $$, go for the cabinet saw!  I think most of us start smaller because of funding issues, and the contractor's saw works fine for the time being, but a cabinet saw will be much, much better and if you get a good one you probably won't have to replace it for the forseeable future.

   Get a good saw with a great fence and you'll be a happy camper. 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   MPHarper | Jun 06, 2002 08:29pm | #4

   Go with the cabinet saw.  The only way to learn to handle a tool is to use it.  There are a lot of good cabinet saws out there, be sure and do your homework.  The only bad thing about starting out with a cabinet saw is that once you've used it for awhile you won't ever want to work with anything less.  It's like the difference between driving a Chevy cavalier and driving a Porsche.  Oh, and welcome to the craft.

   Matt-

   P.S. One more thing make sure you get a good blade.  Any saw is only as good as the blade doing the cutting.  And remember to keep your blades clean and sharp.

5. 
   MichaelLomax | Jun 06, 2002 11:21pm | #5

   A table saw, while a very important tool in my shop, would be near useless without other tools.  If you have the bucks to buy a big cabinet saw, you might consider spending some money on a jointer and a planer and hopefully some hand tools also.

   I am not recommending cheap tools.  Buy the best you can afford.  Just remember that a table saw is only one stop from raw raw wood to fine furniture.

   lomax 

6. 
   chairmake1 | Jun 06, 2002 11:51pm | #6

   I started with a contractors saw and built a LOT of cabinets with it and still have it around. Boy, it did a lot of work and I was happy with it cutting sheet stock. I moved out of cabinets and into hardwood furniture and it just would not stand up to the daily use of cutting hardwood. So now I have a cabinet saw and the difference is night and day. If you can start off with a cabinet saw - please do so - you will not be sorry. I suggest you also buy three types of blades 1- a 24 tooth flat top grind rip blade 2- a 50 tooth combo

   ATB grind and 3- a 80 tooth ATB&R cross cut blade use them as they are needed and keep them clean.

   Hope this helps - good luck

   Robert

7. 
   cgreen | Jun 07, 2002 04:38am | #7

   I agree with the idea of a cabinet saw, I wish I could afford one. I thought long and hard about where I was going with woodworking and decided that the Jet contractors saw would suit my needs. All right I admit it I didn't have the cash to get a cabinet saw : ( .  I have however built a well equipped shop in my garage with most of the nessasary machines. Granted they are not all the best you can buy but they all do the job I need them to do. I guess what I'm getting at is sometimes you don't need the very best to do what you want to do. If you really want the best, a cabinet saw is a step down from one of those fancy sliding table commercial saws that you see sometimes at woodworking shows. If you're only a weekend woodworker and a newbee like me I can't see spending the extra bucks.

   Just a note about safety, I'm sure that if I had a cabinet saw the chances of the little mistakes I have made could have been big mistakes given the substantial increase in power of most cabinet saw.  I can tell you that if you don't have a spliter to keep the wood from closing up on the far side of the blade when ripping, you should under any circumstances wedge the saw kerf as it pass though the blade with a tappered piece of wood. The reason is because if that wedge comes in contact with the teeth of the blade that wedge will be ripped forceable from your hand and flung at an extermely high rate of speed in your direction. Thank the good lord I was just out of its path but the wall wasn't. That wedge is to this day stuck in the sheetrock wall just as a reminder.

   Sorry about the lecture on safety but I think stories about anear serious accident can sometimes make people think about what they are doing before they do something as stupid as what I did. You know if that were a cabinet saw and that happened maybe the wedge would not have been place in the kerf. The extra power would have kept the blade going until the blade jamed tight and the 2 x 6 x 3 foot long white oak board could have been throw in my direction.   

1. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 07, 2002 07:43am | #8

   . . .I can tell you that if you don't have a spliter to keep the wood from closing up on the far side of the blade when ripping, you should under any circumstances wedge the saw kerf as it pass though the blade with a tappered piece of wood. The reason is because if that wedge comes in contact with the teeth of the blade that wedge will be ripped forceable from your hand . . .

   I assume you meant "you should not under any circumstances . . ." But I think the real message here is always use a splitter. View Image

2. 
   sydspal | Jun 08, 2002 08:05pm | #12

   Noted your problem with kickback.  Very dangerous.  A good spitter should help avoid this. Also, a left tilt saw is reported to alleviate this because the stock is not trapped between the fence and the blade.  This is the big 'selling point' of the Powermatic and the Delta and Jet left tilt models.

1. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 09, 2002 07:41am | #13

   Also, a left tilt saw is reported to alleviate this because the stock is not trapped between the fence and the blade.  This is the big 'selling point' of the Powermatic and the Delta and Jet left tilt models. . .

   SFAIK, the solution for a right-tilt has always been "move the rip fence to the left side of the blade."

1. 
   SCFrankland | Jun 09, 2002 02:04pm | #14

   From someone who owns both a left and right tilt tablesaw I don't see why they even make a right tilt model. For any blade tilt operations that require the fence then as Norm said you have to place the fence on the left side of the blade but if your cut is any wider than 12" than you have to make the cut with fence on the right side which doesn't feel safe to me. Also if you have to use feather boards or any other guides they are hardier to setup because of the span from the edge and the fact that any guides you have installed on your fence have to be turned around. Also some fences like the Uni Fence have to be taken apart and the fence installed on the opposite side of the locking mechanism in order to work at all.

   With all that said it all boils down to personal preference in the end.Scott C. Frankland

   Newfoundland Wood Worker

2. 
   sydspal | Jun 11, 2002 10:49pm | #16

   Perhaps this is my lower level of experience speaking regarding the left tilt blade saws but, what does SFAIK stand for?  Seems less than courteous to me.

1. 
   cuttoff | Jun 11, 2002 11:19pm | #17

   Yeah, I want to know too... But not to worry Sydspal, Norm is that last person on this board that would be anything less than totally courteous. He probaly just thinks everyone knows what it means.John

2. 
   JohnYaya | Jun 11, 2002 11:35pm | #18

   Perhaps it means So Far As I Know?  Seems like a good guess to me,and pretty darn innocuous :)

3. 
   cuttoff | Jun 11, 2002 11:39pm | #19

   Of course it is..... LOL Now I remember it. Thanks for the refresher.John

4. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 12, 2002 12:25am | #21

   SFAIK:

     That's right, and SFAICT is "So Far As I Can Tell." Sorry for any confusion.

5. 
   Pike2003 | Jun 11, 2002 11:44pm | #20

   I was always taught that its the person behind the machine is what counts. Order your lumber and parts pre-milled and drink some beer while you wait. You won't do anything but punish the liver then...;)       

6. 
   UncleDunc | Jun 12, 2002 01:41am | #22

   A web search for "internet acronyms" or "usenet acronyms" turns up a multitude of interesting and/or entertaining sites. Some of the phrases that have been acronymized (how's that for an ugly word) may have you ROTFLOL. Or maybe not.

   I'm not sure why using acronyms here would seem discourteous. Were you offended the first time you enountered ASAP or SNAFU? Or, since this is a woodworking site, RAS or SMCS? If we couldn't use acronyms without defining them, there would be little point in using them at all.

   That being said, there is no doubt that acronyms as one element of jargon, and one of the uses of jargon (though not, SFAIK, :) the primary use) has been to define and identify the holders of any kind of specialized knowledge in any human society I've ever heard of. And to exclude, however gently or temporarily, those lacking that knowledge. I've met people who use jargon, including acronyms, discourteously, with the intention of excluding others, but I agree with John that Norm probably isn't one of them.

   Edited 6/11/2002 6:50:59 PM ET by Uncle Dunc

7. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 12, 2002 06:54am | #23

   Thank you; you're also right, it certainly wasn't my intention to exclude anyone; I often puzzle over acronyms I don't understand, but I've never felt that some used them deliberately to shut me out. I still now remember the first time I understood what ROTFL means!

8. 
   scott1578 | Jun 07, 2002 07:31pm | #9

   I as well am a new woodworker.  After reading through the discussions, I have a question.  I have never heard of the terms Contractor Saw or Cabinet Saw.  Are they the same thing as a table saw?

9. 
   srobinson | Jun 08, 2002 01:57pm | #10

   I would recommend a cabinet saw.  I would try to find a used one first, save the extra bucks for other tools.  Be sure that whatever you buy, get a good blade for it.  If you have a really good saw and bad blades you won't get the results you expect.  My first choice would be a Delta Unisaw new or used, but for around $800.00 you can get a brand new Grizzly.  Yeah, its not American made but its a lot of saw for the buck.

   Well good luck with what ever you choose.

   Steve

10. 
    sydspal | Jun 08, 2002 07:56pm | #11

    cabinet and get used to its nuances.  The contractor type is lighter and has more vibration than the cabinet yielding slight inaccuracies.  Seems to me if you start with quality products, you have fewer problems to try to overcome.

11. 
    eddiefromAustralia | Jun 11, 2002 02:54pm | #15

    Might be a stupid question, coming in late in the piece, but WHY do you need the tablesaw (regardless of whether or not you can afford it)? 

    If you're only setting up new as a hobbyist, why not pay a local shop to cut your panels for the first few projects until you're sure the woodworking bug has bit.

    The local shop will be accurate also - far cheaper than destroying veneered panels learning how to cut

    I'm a cabinetmaker and on a table saw all day - teaching schoolkids now - for me the cost is too much for a home shop unless you are working on it regularly. 

    Could save yourself USD1000 for outlay of maybe USD100

1. 
   sschefer | Jun 13, 2002 12:00am | #24

   A newbe that can afford a cabinet saw is certainly a fortunate person.

   Before I start, this isnt another Steve Schefer rant. I just want to understand your true feelings because I think I may have misunderstood the true meaning of your response.

   As to the need, well does anybody need any tool if they can pay someone else to do it for them. I'm not so sure I can classify that as woodworking.

   If that were the reason for doing woodworking I would have quit years ago. Learning how to do it yourself, making the mistakes, interacting with others, gaining knowledge, gaining a skill set, eventually producing something that you can be proud of, having someone else describe the beauty of your work, etc., etc.. Aren't these the reasons that you are now teaching others your craft.

   No disrespect inteded but I'm sure you wouldn't tell your student to skip the portions of your classes that they can pay someone else to do for them.

   If nothing else, a good cabinet saw maintains its value and if he decides that woodworking is not his gig, he can always sell the equipment and get a fair amount of his money back.Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jun 13, 2002 05:20am | #25

   Hi Steve/Bigdonny/others,

   Thanks for your eloquently phrased reply/question Steve. No offence or disrespect taken - I tend to call the shots as I see them.

   The underlying theme in my reply was that I can see the potential that a newcomer to woodworking buying a cabinet saw may be aiming too high too quickly - a sure recipe to either poor quality jobs or professional quality jobs, with little middle ground in between.

   Perhaps it's far better to hold off on trying to do absolutely everything yourself as a newcomer, and concentrate on the joinery/router work (if that's what's required) for the first few projects until your skills and confidence are at that higher level. There is a huge learning curve in doing this work alone. After a few jobs, you'll also know whether or not woodworking is exactly what you thought it would be and you'll be in the position to make an informed choice yourself, Donny.

   Putting things another way, imagine how many of us would have thrown our hands up in disgust if our first task was to produce a complex breakfronted cabinet, etc...

   As an aside, Steve, my kids actually come to me and suggest what work may need to be outsourced, when they feel that it is way beyond their abilities or our shop's capabilities (eg: polyurethane spray, using woodwizz to level the top of a surface). In teaching woodworking, I am aiming to get them working to the best of their abilities - at times, I can talk them into doing work if I feel they can (such as using a jointer plane to level a tabletop for some), otherwise I let them outsource some parts.

   As you said, the satisfaction and ownership of a job is important - above all else, we need to have, as woodworkers, a chance to keep this feeling going, or else a hobby soon goes belly-up.

   Trust that similarly this post causes no offence or feeling of disrespect - Hope that I've explained my underlying message well enough behind the first posting and, indeed, I feel as though it's been a lot more thorough - certainly a lot more words.

   Cheers,

   Eddie

1. 
   cuttoff | Jun 13, 2002 05:48pm | #27

   Eddie, just wanted to say thanks to you and Steve for keeping this conversation at the intelligent level that it should be.John

12. 
    geo1025 | Jun 13, 2002 12:01pm | #26

    There is no substitute for sheer mass and rigidity. So please save yourself time and money by buying the heavy cabinet saw first. I've had good luck with several different manufacturers but highly recommend the Bessemer fence. Once the saw and fence are set up you're good for just about all operations. The reply saying "get a good blade" is good advice. I've had fine results with Forest products. If you buy a 10" saw and get two Forest blades you'll probably be happy. Forget the initial cost. It is far less expensive to get the good stuff first, have redundancy ( so you can keep working while the other blade is in the sharpening shop) and get used to quality. My father was right... buying a cheap tool only guarantees that you'll end up buying two tools. Good luck! Geo

13. 
    cuttoff | Jun 13, 2002 09:01pm | #28

    All jealousy aside---- The cabinet saw is the way to go. Good blades and an excellent fence are mandatory items and will add to the cost. This is why many of us buy contractors saws and then upgrade them with high end blades and fences. The one thing that always gets us is the power. The cabinet saw is far superior in this area and will make your life much less miserable while learning how to use the equipment.

    If there is one lesson that I have learned its that while lesser equipment can be adjusted to, its soooooo much nicer when you have good equipment. I say jump in there with both feet and get that cabinet saw. You'll still need to ensure it has a good fence and good blades but you won't be questioning all the other things when your expectations are not met. It will simply be your skills that need improving and thats something that you can deal with by practicing.

    If I flip the coin over, I see a lot of fine work comming from inexpensive equipment. I don't doubt that you could get buy with something like this but why. You have the money so go for it. I would have had I been able to afford it.

    Hope this helps, good luck, and welcome to the "sawdust in your shorts" gang.

    John

1. 
   rody | Jun 13, 2002 10:44pm | #29

   i'm a very amatuer WW'er and of course have an opinion. I'm pretty cheap but like nice tools if I'm going to use them. My normal plan is to buy a particular tool twice. The first is a cheap version or an inexpensive used one. This gives me a chance to beat one around and see if I will use it much. If it gets a lot of use for my type of projects and I see what I like and don't like, then I can spend the big bucks for quality. If it is a tool that only gets used once in a blue moon, either because it doesn't apply to what I'm building or because I don't like it, then I have only wasted a couple hundred bucks at most. It has kept me from blowing several times that on something to sit in the corner and collect scrap wood.

   Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue

14. 
    ScottDoten | Jun 17, 2002 06:13am | #30

    Hello!

    Money not being a problem I would go ahead and purchase a cabinet saw.  I own the Jet 10"  3hp single-phase, 230 volt motor with the XACTA fence.  My saw's blade tilts to the right, if I had to do it over again I would have purchased the model which tilts to the left.  The reasons I say this is because I have used both and like the left tilting saws.  For me, I have had to turn a board up on its edge in order to cut complicated angles and you just can not do that and still rip on the right side of the blade -- I have found it difficult to put the rip fence to the left side of the blade. 

    If you are worried about a 50" fence being too long I am sure that a shorter fence could be ordered or you can do what I am about to do and that is cut "X" amount of inches off.  For me its going to be about 38" due to the fact that I have never had to rip anything near 38" but then again I will be able to rip a sheet of plywood.  I hope this information helps you make your decision.

    Talk to you later

    Scott