Tablesaws of the “American kind” are very limited here in Denmark. Despite searching high and low the only one that comes even close is the Jet 10″ Super Saw. So if anyone out there has any experience or insight regarding this machine I’d sure appreciate hearing from you.
I’m new to woodworking but serious about it. Money IS an object so kind suggestions about just buying a european style cabinet saw is, unfortunately, out of the question.
Thanks,
Vallance
Replies
Vallance, welcome! Love it when a newbie just plunges in here. The Super Saw has been discussed relative to the other hybrid saws (DeWalt, and ?? General maybe, can't remember), and there have been a number of magazine reviews over the past 2 years. Since you are not, evidently, trying to decide between it and other hybrids, or between it and a low-priced cabinet saw, I'd guess you're mostly wanting to know if there's anything about it that screams "Don't buy this saw!"
From what I've read, in both reviews and user comments, nope there isn't. It has a few quirks, but nothing major. Do you have a dealer over there? IMO, it would be important to buy from a dealer, and not on-line, if at all possible, so you have some easily-accessed customer support.
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for your swift reply.
There is a dealer, but as the Jet is the only one of the kind he sells I'm not too sure what to put into what he may say... and he is trying to sell something, which always makes me a little doubtful about the praise and whatever bells and whistles he may blow. There really isn't a woodworking community here like you have in America, so I'm more or less depending on input from across the ocean and common sense. But you're right, I am looking for a warning signal, someone telling me this particular saw isn't worth the $2.300 price tag!
Vallance
Vallance, if that's what you can afford, I think you'll be OK. Over here, there are a couple other options in the same price range that some think are better. But overall, I think the Super Saw passes muster quite well. Not sure how many Knotheads you'll find who have or use the saw. Here, take a look at the Amazon reviews. They should help you out! Best of luck!forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Once again, thanks! The reviews certainly made me aware of things to be attentive of when I'll be visiting the dealer.
Vallance
The Jet saw has not been particularly well received in the forums I visit. There does seem to be a few owners who are happy with the machine and quite a few more who have decided to spend their money elsewhere. I believe the dewalt 746 is available in Europe and to make it sweeter it comes with a riving knife and crown guard which the US model does not have. I would suspect any “US” style saw you could buy will have a short arbor though.
If I were looking at this class of machine I would go with the dewalt over the SS due to its better fence, t-slot in the sliding table, better trunion, and blade shroud. I also like the controls more.
Aren’t there some (cheaper than felder, minimax, etal) saws available to you though?
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
True, the Dewalt 746 IS available here... at a price only a few hundred buck less than the Felder K700 Eco!!!! I hadn't really expected to pay that much for a decent saw, but the more I look around, the more I search and seek the more disappointing it gets. The 746 costs $ 5.132 the Felder $ 5.495 - both are are light years away from the Jet Super Saw at $ 2.254.
I'm think it could actually be worth the hassle and effort to import something like the Powermatic or General from the US or Canada, but that would surely be my last choice.
Thanks for your input though, and for that really informative and well-put-together homepage you have, I'll be sure to bother you in the future :-)
Thanks,
Vallance
The price you quote for a felder sounds like USD so I'm assuming the $5132.00 price for the 746 is not some kind of 5:1 evaluation of some sort. I don't understand how British woodworking equip is about twice what it is here so there is no way I'll be able to understand why it would cost five times as much for you, very disheartening. Every now and then I hear some Brits get worked up enough to talk about importing a Unisaw (the Nahm machine), I don't know if any of those folks have gone through with it.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
I have no idea how things are princed in the UK, I'm from Denmark. Supplies and materials are are no where near as ready handed as they are in the UK and of course even lesser so than in the US. Paying over $ 5.000 for a saw like the DeWalt is out of the question. But paying far more for a saw than you would in the US is pretty much a fact of life with practically everything here; wages are high but so are the taxes!
Do you happen to know anything about a brand called "Wadkin"?
Vallance
Vallance
"Do you know anything about a brand called Wadkin"?
Seek out Sgain Dubh (Richard Jones) who has just moved back to the UK. He took a job teaching there after building professionally for years. He sold his large Wadkin before he left Houston TX. He is very familar with them as I would guess a number of Brits would be.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I tried finding this guy but no luck. Thanks anyway!
This is in reply to your quesiton about Wadkin. The photo you posted is very similar to a Wadkin Bursgreen saw I bought in 1978. It was made in Britain (I'm in the U.S.), and it has served me well all these years. Mine will take a 12-in. blade, but I mostly use 10-in. blades on it. I bought it for the wonderful added convenience of the sliding crosscut table, which will cut a panel up to about 38 in. wide. by 8-10 ft. long. The factory-supplied motor is 3 hp, 3 phase and after many years of heavy use, it still works fine. I've only had to replace the belts once and fit it with a new switch after the first one burned out.
I heard a rumor that Wadkin had gone out of business, but I don't know for sure whether that's true. Even if it is, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used Wadkin machine if it were in decent shape and on the market for a good price.
Wadkin are in fact still in business but they don't make saws anymore, I believe they manufacture cutterheads and shapers now. I can get a 15 year old Wadkin at a reasonable price and the dealer has told me that they sell quite a few of these used. Unfortunately I have absolutely no room for a sliding table in that size, almost any size, so I'm thinking in other directions and may have to return to a Wadkin when time and space allows.
Thanks for your input,
Vallance
Phil,
You wonder why things are so expensive in Europe. That's easy to answer. It's called the great gravy train AKA, The European Union.
To misquote Winston Churchill;"Never in the field of humanity, have so few, conspired to tax so many untill they squeak".
PeterW
Edited 1/12/2004 2:01:58 AM ET by PeterW
Edited 1/12/2004 2:02:52 AM ET by PeterW
Hi Vallance,
I have no experience with the Jet saw but as I also live in Europe (Austria) I may offer some ideas.
How much can you afford to spend and how much space do you have for the saw?
I'd look at Metabo (TKU 1693 and TK 1256 which ran out of production but might be still available), Kity 619, Scheppach TS 2000 and TS 2500, Festool Precisio, Mafell Erika.
Hope this helps,
Christian
Thanks for the suggestions. As it is now room and money is an important factor. I don't want to wait untill I build my house so I'll have to make due with what I have. I found a Bosch table(top)saw that I might buy and make the best of untill I have room for something larger ie. a real cabinet saw.
I've looked into the Kity but it seems all their models are hopelessly underpowered not to mention French. I'd give if not my right hand then at least a finger of my left hand for a Felder, but room and money just has too much to say right now.
Thanks for your reply though,
Vallance
Vallance,
Many of us started out with a table top model that delivered quite a bit of utility at a very low cost. The one disappointment in my Skill ($99) saw was that the miter was not standard and, therefore, aftermarket products that could improve accuracy did not fit the machine. The Bosch is a much better machine than the Skill. I have a cabinet saw now so the Skill lays on it side in the corner of my shop. Recently I bought a bandsaw from Delta. Rather than paying Delta $149 for the bandsaw fense I have recycled the fense from the Skill....works like a charm. I may take my Skill table top and convert it into a sanding machine. My point is that $99 investment in the table top is still delivering quite a bit of utility... good luck
Hi Vallance,
as for the Kity saws, I don't think that all of them are underpowered but I don't have any personal experience. The Kity 419 is not very powerful, only 1.1 kW (1.5 hp). But the Kity 619 has a 3.15 kW (4 hp) motor which is quite powerful for a hobby woodworker's table saw IMO.
How much power does the Jet have? - 1.3 kW (1.75 hp)?
Please inform us about your decision.
Regards,
Christian
Hi Christian,
The Jet has 2 hp and the Kity 619 is equally delivered with a mere 2 hp motor - but that's here in Denmark, which for a tablesaw of that kind is a shortcomming I think. I like the Kity 619 but it's pricy and underpowered. Bosch has a new portable saw, GTS 10, which comes with a 10" blade and has a 1800 watt motor (something like 2½ hp) and it's offered for sale at an introduction price which puts it within my grasp. Like I've mentioned before both money and space is an issue for me, so the saw of a lifetime will have to wait untill I've built us a house with a shop.
Regards,
Vallance
Hi Vallance,
thanks for your update. I already saw the Bosch and I'm not very enthused about it because there are no acessories (sliding table, extension, ...) available. Which kind of motor does the Bosch have? An asynchron motor?As for the Kity 619 is it available with 230 V and 400 V? Are we really talking about the same saw? The Kity 619 here http://diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/Product.asp?ProdID=2192 has 2.5 hp (single phase) or 3 hp (three phase) OUTPUT.
How much is the new Bosch?
Regards,
Christian
Hi Christian,
I really don't know what kind of motor the Bosch has, I don't know much about motors but supposedly it has a smooth start which should be indicative of what kind of motor it is. Perhaps you would know from this? (Induction motor perhaps???)
To give you an idea of just how little room I have for a saw I would have to use it outdoors!!!! if I'm to build anything larger than small bookcases and wall cabinets, so you see the idea of being without a sliding table dosn't concern me too much, as for the extension table I can make one myself which is tailor made to suit what little room I have, I expect I'll make a mobil base for the saw to move around depending on the projekt.
We are indeed talking about the same Kity saw, the 619. For some reason however the motor seems to differ from what's available to you
The Bosch sells for kr 5.000 which is US $ 855. At this price it's the best I can get right now. The DeWalt 744 would be an alternative, but it has gotten primarily rotten reviews so I quickly forgot all about that.
Cheers,
Vallance
Hi Vallance,
my space is also very limited so I only use a handheld circular saw with guide rails. This works really well, I have the Festool plunge saw which gives smooth and accurate cuts. You might consider this setup for cutting large sheets.
The Bosch and the Dewalt saws are way cheaper in the US than here. I'd pay about EUR 900 for the Bosch or the Dewalt.
If the Bosch has an induction motor it seems to be a good choice. This kind of motor isn't as loud as a universal motor.
You might be interested in the Yahoo Bosch 4000 table saw group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bosch_4000/?yguid=90030158
Regards,
Christian
Hey,
A Festool plunge saw would be a sweet addition but it costs about the same as the Bosch tablesaw!!! Expensive but nice, very nice!
I've used my circular saw for the same as you have, I even had it mounted underneath a piece of MDF as an ultra simple tabletop saw, ripped lumber to build a small greenhouse that way!
The Bosch 4000 is just a more powerful edition of the GTS 10 I think, but thanks for the link.
Vallance
I don't know if the US Bosch saw is really more powerful. I've had long discussions about hp, amps and Watt and it seems that the companies provide us with theoretic numbers which can't be achieved in real use. I question that the Bosch will ever reach 4.4 hp. According to Physics P = U * I -> 115 * 15 = 1725 Watt = 2.313 hp.
Please let me know how you like the saw.
Regards,
Christian
Christian,
I see your power point, regardless though I think the GTS 10 has the juice I need for my projects.
Another thing, the blade that comes with the saw is some generic type combination blade which (at that price) probably isn't honkey dory. I read the article in FWW testing combination blades and I thought I'd go for the Forrester WWII - do you know of a dealer in northern Europe?
Don't worry I'll rant and rave about the saw once I get it!
Cheers,
Vallance
Hi Vallence,
I also think that the Bosch has enough power for many ww projects. One point which should be considered IMO is the riving knife/splitter. Many splitters don't allow to cut grooves because the splitters are set at a higher level than the saw blade. In order to cut grooves you might have to add a shopmade splitter. I'm not sure about the splitter of the Bosch but I'd check it out before getting the saw.
I don't know any Forrest dealers in Europe and have never looked for one. I think there are a couple of European companies which produce excellent saw blades. My Festool circular saw has a 48 teeth HM blade. I can cut melamine, plywood, ... without any tear out. As far as I know, Festool gets the blades from Leitz, a very reputable company.
The GTS 10 has a typical US size blade - 254 mm which is somewhat exotic here. You might be able to use a 250 mm blade which should be widely available from different brands. If I remember correctly, Bosch uses Hawera saw blades.http://www.leitz.org/leitz_english/index.htmlhttp://www.edessoe.de/englisch/index.htmlhttp://www.guhdo.de/http://www.fisch-tools.com/index_en.phphttp://www.leuco.de/http://www.stark-werkzeuge.de/http://www.stehle-germany.de/http://www.hawera.com/start/index.htm
Regards,
Christian
Hi Vallance, I was a bit late spotting this discussion, but here in the UK there is a Jet dealer, http://www.jet.uk.com/home.html
I see they and their network of dealers in the UK are selling the JTS-250S saw for £1175. I’m not sure what the £/€ exchange rate is, but if it’s €1.60/£1 then the cost is €1880. You might be able to get one of these models set up for your electrical needs and shipped from the UK--- we are all supposed be in the same EC, ha, ha.
The chances are the machine will be configured to suit European woodworking regulations with an arbor too short to accept a dado blade for instance. Jet along with Powermatic and Performax, the latter both primarily US companies, are owned by WMH Holdings in Switzerland.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/default.asp?sub=464 This link to saw benches at Axminster Tools should take you to their section on saw benches, but if it doesn’t a bit of clicking around will get you where you need to be. They sell saws in a wide price range down to as little as ~£330 for the Elektra Beckum saw, up to ~£2805 for their top of the line model.
Elektra Beckum make a range of woodworking tools generally economically priced, so therefore probably ‘economical’ in performance too, ha, ha. But I’m aware of Europeans using their kit in places as diverse as Sweden to Spain, so there must be mainland European suppliers as well as UK based ones that you could locate.
Anyway, there are economically priced saws made and sold in Europe—by economically priced, I mean less than about €1000. I’ve never been much impressed with these economically priced tools, but then I’ve never been an occasional woodworker and I’ve spent most of my life around bigger machinery.
Which brings us neatly to Wadkin. I ‘grew up’ so to speak using Wadkin kit, and I’m surrounded by the stuff at work. They did go belly up a couple of years back, and they have reemerged (as far as I know) producing and selling what they call their classic range of light industrial machines. I think one of the causes of their financial problems (and this is pure speculation) was the move away from general purpose machinery into supplying almost exclusively four sided planers and specialist moulding machinery. Here’s a link to their website. http://www.wadkin.com/ Slainte.Website
Crickey Sgian
If you class Wadkin stuff as light industrial, I wouldn't like to see the heavy stuff ;-)
Scrit
Another Wadkin user, BTW
Ha, ha, Scrit. Some eight or ten years ago when discussing their range with a representative of Wadkin, he described their 'classic' range of machinery as, "light industrial." I too scratched my head a bit at that description, but if they class it as that, well then, that's good enough for me. I think he was describing the smaller machines-- the 13" planer/thicknesser, hollow chisel mortiser, the old bench ripping saws, etc.. Slainte.Website
Sgian Dubh,
Thanks for writing. Elektra Beckum is an option. But machinery in that size comes in much nicer packages, say wrapped like a Felder perhaps?! Anyway, EB is too pricey and too bulky for my blade grinder / garden tool / wood depot / bike shed. The Wadkin looked appealing because the sliding table could be dismounted and it had appearance and function like an American type cabinet saw (not that that was an absolute must). However the Wadkin is 15 years old (not necessarily a drawback) and costs £ 1800 or 2600 Euros.
I am an amateur and an unexperienced one too. I haven't got room or money to buy what I really want, so until that day comes I have to make some compromises. I could buy something like the Jet which I initially started out wanting, but mixed reviews and a high price with low motor power makes it look like an expensive transitional machine. The DeWalt 746 costs over $ 5.000, which otherwise could have been an option, and is in the same category as the Jet.
It's a bit bewildering at times to choose ones first saw especially as I have practically no experience working with one. The way I see it though is that you eventually learn to maximize whatever tool you have to its utmost, in this case because of need and lack of something better. My need is to make accurate rip- and crosscuts. I know this is what all saws do, but patience and meticulousness from my side will outweigh the saw's shortcomings. In the end time will tell if I'm doing the right thing, the best I can do is to make the most educated guess at what will be right from the variables involved.
Skaal,
Vallance
I have read all the replies to your original question, and hope this may help a bit. I bought the Jet Super Saw w/sliding table just over a year ago. For the most part it is a well built machine. I have not had a problem with power from the 2hp motor (i a running it at 230V) The problems/complaints I have are 1) the sliding table has a lot of problems a) It is very difficult to adjust the table travel to stay co-planar with the main table top. The sliding table "lifts and moves away from the blade" making it hard to make a square cross cut or flat bottom dado. b) The table will not stay in adjustment for very long. c) The owners manual suggests having the sliding table 0.020" higher than the main table top to reduce sliding friction. However, if you are crosscutting a piece around 4"-5" long this 0.020" will cause the cuts to be out of square by about a degree. 2) There is no miter slot on the left side of the blade. Most accessories use this slot, ESP. tennoning jig. 3) A rubber belt is used for the blade lift mechanism. This belt is a timing belt (with teeth across the inside face if the belt) These teeth can, and have stripped very easily. US$15 to replace one. 4) The tape along the front rail (used for setting the fence) is made of mylar. I found that mine was 1/8" off over the 33" length of the tape. This amount of inaccuracy is variable depending on the temperature in the factory the day the tape in applied and the force used to straighten the tape. 5) The fence magnifier/cursor is hard to line up with the marks on the tape. I know some of these complaints are minor and nit picky, but these are issues that I have to deal with on a daily basis. If i were to do it all over again, i would get the Super Saw with out the sliding table and saved about US $400. Hope this helps. Has anyone else had these same issues?
Pictureman,
I've read some of the same complaints about the sliding table before. Before knowing anything else about this saw I noticed the missing slot of the left side of the blade and felt this could be a problem. The sliding table comes as standard so I'm pretty much stuck with it, misalignment or not. As I've replied to others during the past two days or so I think I'm stepping down from the SS and going with a Bosch GTS 10 which is (I think) a European edition of the Bosch 4000. From what I've read from reviews and read here in the answers I've gotten the SS is a decent saw but has some shortcomings I won't be happy with in the long run. So, the cabinet saw of my dreams will have to wait some years, and until then I'll learn to work with what I have (i.e. the Bosch) and gather experience and techniques from, among others, all of you in this fine forum.
Thanks for your reply,
Vallance
Edited 1/12/2004 2:19:53 AM ET by Vallance
Hey,
I've got a Jet Super Saw and my comments would parallel what I've seen in the review or two that I've scanned. With a good blade (Forrest), I get good quality rips. The power is fine for almost all of what I do. Sometimes it will bog a little with really thick hardwoods but not often enough to bother me. I have a love/hate relationship with the sliding table. Once set up, it cuts very accurately, particularly handy for crosscutting panels. The downside is that the setup is fiddly and time consuming, at least for me. Once in place it stays put reasonably well. I'm careful not to lean on it when it's extended. Sadly the mechanism that is supposed to lock it in place so it doesn't slide does not work at all. The dust collection isn't great. The holes in the bottom of the cabinet seem to get clogged pretty often. I cut out the bottom and put an aftermarket dust hood in place. I also added the Penn State overarm guard/dust collector up top.
So I'm not convinced that it's necessarily the best saw for the money at least on the US market, but it works great for almost all of what I do. I can't say that I regret buying it. Of course, I've only been a woodworker for a year or two, and I haven't had the opportunity to try out lots of different types of saws.
Hope this helps.
Drew Ross
Drew,
I wouldn't have second thoughts about this machine if it was priced as it is in the US, but here it costs over $2.000 and I'm not sure this is the smartest thing to go for since I was either in for a cabinet saw with dual mitre slots or a serious sliding table. For now though saws like that are just out of my reach; the most important thing for me now is to get something that can get me started with those relatively uncomplicated things I want to do.
Should I change my mind I'm glad to hear you've had reasonably good results with the Jet SS.
Thanks for replying,
Vallance
Hi Vallance,
Have you priced the Minimax SC-2?
I think it might be in your price range. (2.500 euro)
Here is a link I got off google:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.makxilia.it/squadratrici.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dminimax%2Bsc-3%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8
Edited 1/8/2004 1:39:23 PM ET by nicobie
Hi Vallance,
I'm new at this forum, but woodworking is my hobby for at least 15 years. I live in the same region like you (Europe, Czech Republic), so please let me say my two cents.
I was thinking about a new table saw 6 months ago and one of my choices was a Rojek - these saws should be sold worldwide. I'd suggest you to look at http://www.rojek.cz (please choose an english language there), their saws have a good accessories - sliding table and so on - and the price of PK 300 is on our market still under the price of Jet 10" Super Saw.
Hope this helps
Dan
please excuse my English
Dan
Welcome to the forum. I will agree that the Rojek is a great choice. We have a dealer here in the U.S. in the state of Arkansas. A bit out of my price range here, but someday maybe.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have indeed looked at a Rojk, but danish VAT and import taxes puts this machine in the same catagory as some of the other saws which for now is a bit beyond my economic scope.
Thanks for the suggestion though, and by the way your english is very good!
Vallance
Does VAT make the Minimax too pricey?
I know that it's made in Italy, but what the heck.
I haven't found a Minimax dealer in Denmark, but without question it too would be too expensive because of VAT and other taxes.
Vallance,
I just bought the Dewalt 746. So far it's OK
My research on the Jet and Dewalt turned up a problem with the belt on the Jet.
Check out amazon.com for reviews on the jet. There are some pretty unhappy people who were not able to get parts from Jet
ASK
if you live in denmark what would make you seek an american style saw?? Europe manufactures all the best machinery.
austria, italy, germany, belgum.. you are pretty close to some of these countries, no?
look to your neighbors.
I don't doubt the quality of many of the european saws; I've primarily disregarded them because of costs. As you can see from Fine Woodworking and other sites on the net it's not as if it takes a european type saw to do beauiful work. I believe it's mainly a matter of how one utilizes ones saw and not nessecarily where it was manufactured.
Vallance
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled