Very interesting stories. I am a newbie. Grew up refinishing antiques with my parents. I have done a few small projects and want to do more. Converting the garage now. Money is always tight…would you recommend a table saw or band saw to start? I have read both as options. I am not planning on working with large plywood sheets. Projects: Clocks, Chair, Door, Table…eventually guitars.
Are a jointer and planner a must or can I get by with some hand planes to start?
Thought I could get started with Table saw or band saw, router and some hand planes?
Thanks.
Replies
I'd start with a table saw- Get the first pieces cut, then buy whatever I need to complete the next step, and so on-
Thanks Yogi.
The conventional wisdom would say start with a table saw.
But when I saw guitars on your list, I started thinking bandsaw. You can work around a table saw with a circular saw, chop saw, and a router -- but you can't really work around a BS.
I am not necessarily saying this is what you should do, but I am suggesting that you think about it.
A planer and jointer would make your wwing life easier; but you can go pretty far without those machines if you develop some proficiency with hand planes.
Good luck.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Boy - everyone's gonna have a different opinion on this one.
For my money, the table saw is basically the single indispensable floor machine. I'd hazard to guess that 80-90% of stock cut - whether body, brace, etc. - will start as some basically rectangular shape, for which the T/S is best-suited. As well, the T/S has multiple options for crosscutting, ripping, dadoing, tenoning, edge forming, blah-de-blah. A good one has exceptional potential for precison cutting and repeatability ... in straight lines.
Downside? If all of your doors and chairs and tables and guitars have mostly curved sections, the T/S is gonna be an albatross and you'll be dying for a bandsaw.
I've a hunch that as a new shop owner, you'll be spending a significant amount of time assembling straight parts as you perfect your craft, and on that basis would suggest that the T/S might be a great first purchase. If you elect to get a new one on a limited budget, I'd steer you to take a look at the Rigid contractor saw - good reviews. (Stay away from those cheap little aluminum roller skates with blades - they're dangerous, tippy, difficult to set up, and nearly impossible for precision applications.) A cabinet saw is the best workhorse, and may serve a lifetime but at 2-4 times the initial cost (or more.) Spend money on good blades - Tenryu, Forrest, Freud, etc., and on cast iron table plus extensions. Your comments suggest that a 10" will serve your needs, but be sure to evaluate the potential for needing a larger one.
With patience, a T/S can help you obtain the square and flat surfaces made so easy with a jointer. For smaller sections (e.g., 1" and under), a T/S in combination with planes and scrapers can efficiently support excellent work. For the big guys like the large 2" stock parts for a (doorway) door, you'll be very happy to see the jointer make its way to your floor.
Otherwise, the jointer can save considerable working time regardless of stock size, but it can't do all the tricks placed at your disposal by a table saw. If ALL of your work is small, you don't need an 8" or larger jointer. Conversely, there are an awful lot of 6" owners who wish they'd gone larger in the first place. Only you can divine your probable needs.
If you've tons of stock to surface, then a planer will be a lifesaver. Your T/S may be able to split (resaw) a 1" to a pair of net 1/4", but the large remaining surfaces would be a burden to smooth with a hand plane, and the T/S kerf would involve far more waste than would a bandsaw. Mostly resawing or curves says "get the bandsaw." Mostly light cross-sections? Would a good quality jig saw be a better (and much smaller) investment than a bandsaw for the short term? The Bosch is a beaut.
Edit - fergot to mention - the basic purpose of a planer is to quickly and accurately make the workpiece's upper surface parallel with the lower. That's all. Feeding a lot of stock at the same setting will also ensure that it's all the same thickness. Fortunately, they also run like the dickens and save us a bunch of time in planing for smoothness. The reviews are serious - buy the best, or you'll be replacing it. Alternate - use jointer to flatten Side 1, use T/S to rip Side 2 at parallel, then run Side 2 across the jointer for first smoothing - - tedious, but planer not required.
I'd make at least a mental pass on the roster of projects I'd want to complete in the next couple of years, and try to discern from that list which of the basic major power tools would help the mostest the soonest. No need to hurry - ya can't do 'em all at the same time anyway - buy what you need right now and build up as progress demands.
Another key point concerns the type and condition of wood you intend to be working. Most serious cabinetmakers buy rough hardwood lumber, then dry, size, and surface it themselves - it's an entire science by itself and highly reliant on the jointer and planer. If you start with logs, then you'll be crippled without a bandsaw. If you intend to get going with pine or perhaps soft maple, and to make relatively smaller parts at first, then you may be able to get away with "big-box" lumber store stock which you just allow to dry and then shape to parallel/square with your trusty T/S, plane, scraper, etc.
As you work, be alert to the possible need for a drill press, even a small one.
Also, there are pretty serious safety issues.
I calculated that if one accidentally leaned into the head of my 8" 5500rpm 4-blade jointer, that it could remove 4 inches of finger(s) ... every 1/10th second!! In other words, carelessness can lead to loss up to your wrist in a heartbeat. Everyone learns to do it well, but you need time to focus on the movements and control necessary for safety so as to build reliable good habit.
Same for the T/S. Imagine what damage you could do with a 3/4" dado blade, and allow time to learn the right habits to prevent it.
For that reason, I'd urge you not to get a bunch altogether, but rather only to acquire those with which you already have considerable experience and "autopilot" comfort, and then add one new one at a time.
I'm 62, and have been hit with a touch of emphysema, which will only get worse. Hero. Strong body. Good lungs. Don't need no stinking protection. Lifetime sawdust and fumes have been contributors. Get a dust collector and USE it. Griz has a great little 2hp (Model G1029Z) with good capacity and static head, which can be twinned if needed as your shop grows. $300. http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2006/Main/144 I'm adding a lightweight tower around mine to house .5 micron furnace filters - the 2.5 micron standard bag still leaves a lot of bad stuff floating around.
Finally, there is nothing better (or slower, or more difficult, or more rewarding) than learning to perform all needed operations with hand tools, just as the old masters had to. Learning to do it by hand will teach you every nuance of what the tool is expected to do and how it reacts with the workpiece, and will ultimately lead to greater, easier, and more elegant proficiency with powered equipment.
Sorry for the long rant. Hope it gave ya a usable think somewhere in there.
Best of luck to you -
---John
Edited 2/25/2006 2:43 am ET by PJohn
Edited 2/25/2006 2:56 am ET by PJohn
Edited 2/25/2006 3:09 am ET by PJohn
Hey guys:
I love these forums. So many smart and kind people who are a click away. Thanks for your thoughtful e mails. Excellent advice. I do have a tendency to jump in full blast and taking things a bit slower would allow me the time necessary to learn about each piece. It would also allow me to save more money for each piece and hopefully buy a tool I can grow into rather than out of.
There certainly are many ways to do the same things as you have pointed out. I think with your advice I will start with a table saw and perhaps a hand plane to accompany what I already have. I will build a second bench and some wall mounts for my tools. This will allow me to do unfinished work while learning the basic tablesaw skills.
I will eventually want a drill press, router, planer and jointer....
As a physician I am aware the hazards of dust etc. I can only imagine what hours of stipeez did to my lungs as a kid refinishing antiques.
I am interested in the 10" delta 350 tablesaw with cast iron wings or the 63-675
4-500$.
recommendations? Many are recommending grizzly... would you recommend any online sources?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/002-6553709-2112821?search-alias=tools&keywords=delta%20table%20saws
Thanks once again for your remarks.
John / North Carolina
If you have decided on a TS, then it might be helpful to sort all the available choices into the four basic categories:1) Portable, benchtop saws -- like Bosch 4000, Ridgid, Dewalt. Many used by pros for job site work, but a growing number are going into newbie shops as a first saw -- particularly when storage space is at a premium. 2) contractor saws -- a gazillion are available, including the Delta you linked. Certainly the most popular type for home shops. 3) Hybrid saws -- a new category, started by Dewalt, but now with models from Jet, Delta. Many of the features found in cabinet saws, but smaller, and less expensive. 4) Cabinet saws -- Delta Unisaw, Powermatic 66, Sawstop, General et al. These represent the top of the heap for most home based and small pro shops.Within each category, you'll find saws from the mainline brands (Delta, Powermatic, General), and then a cheaper, imported group (like Grizzly).I would suggest you sort out the categories by price, and then go as high up the line as you can comfortably afford. Grizzly sells a lot of saws to folks who are attracted to the price, but quality and fit/finish can be hit or miss.With tools, like everything else in life, you pretty much get what you pay for. But unlike a car, you can't test drive a tool before you buy it. The best you can do is gather information like you're doing here.But the worst thing is to go cheap with a tool, and then always regret that it doesn't perform up to your expectations. That never seems to be the case for folks who buy a mainline hybrid or a cabinet saw. Moreover, with those types of saws, you can generally resell them for almost as much as you paid -- should you decide a year or two down the line that wwing is not for you. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hi, Doc John ...Sounds as though you've found a direction - great! For what it's worth, I'd look really hard at selection among low-end table saws. Slight differences can have huge effects on usability. Though not sufficiently informed about Delta to speak with authority, I can say that I've heard some disparaging remarks about Delta in recent years. Have read a number of T/S comparos, all of which placed Rigid at the top.I'd urge you to invite comments regarding T/S selection, perhaps in a new discussion devoted to T/S recommendations.I purchased a Craftsman as my first about 30 years ago ($350), and have had to engineer a lot of improvements to get it to function as desired. If I had it to do again, I'd have purchased twice the saw and half the headaches. That is, I'd have purchased today's $1200 saw, avoided the custom upgrades, and be looking today at a $2500 replacement to get what I really want.Good hunting - ---John
Hi again, John - 2nd reply. You mentioned wall mounts for your tools. Don't know your locale, but be aware that oxidation in unprotected storage can be pretty rough on bladed tools such as chisels, planes, scrapers, etc. (It can hurt all tools, but a sharp-bladed tool can literally be ruined.) Experience has led me to prefer closeable drawers and/or cabinets such that I can at least toss in a mothball to help keep the humidity dragon at bay.Further, while I'm at it:
As you know, "people grease" is acidic and it can eventually have a deleterious effect on your woodworking tools. Ditto humidity. Suggest that you wipe tools before storage, and that you keep a good coat of paste wax on everything in your shop.---John
Thanks for all of the input. Well it sounds like a T/S is a good place to start, hoping that other tools wont be too far behind. Buy the best you can afford is a theme I keep hearing. I will look at the rigid line as suggested too.
Thanks too for the comments about the humidity and metal tools. We are in North Carolina so probably a good idea.
I think I will spend an hour or two in a local Woodcraft and do a little more searching on the net.
Thanks again.
John
Wow PJohn! I just read your advice to another newbie - and found it SO helpful. Thanks for taking the time!
Hi ...Thanks for your kind comment. I do genuinely believe that there have been a large number of well-thought-out and sincere responses, each with its gems of wisdom, and feel compelled to share your gracious compliment with all. One of the wonderful things about these forums is that so much can be shared and is there for the asking. Whether fact or opinions, one can garner a cross-section and find useful bits in wider variety than might once have been available in a lifetime. For me, it's humbling, and a privilege to participate at any level. =================================
Regards,--- John
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"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Since you're ingenuity and desire are the most critical requirements, you can get by without alot of things, but I sure use my jointer and planer alot. The first step of all my projects is to square up the stock using the jointer, planer, then TS, so I get tight joints. Hand plans can do it too, but it's alot more work and there some technique involved. You'll also find that good planes aren't inexpensive.
The TS is the most used tool in my shop. Even when not in use, the large surface makes a great dry fit surface and flat reference for alot of things. It does sound like you'd benefit from a BS too, but I think you'll have to decide which projects are nearest and dearest to you.
If I'm reading correctly, you need to make a choice now between the band saw or the table saw, right? How far down the road before you could add the other machine???
If it's going to be a long time, I tend to agree with those who say band saw first. Anything with a curved line is going to require the band saw (well.....there are ways to use a table saw for some unstraight edges, but .....). You can clean up straight edges from the band saw with a router or a hand plane.
If you're doing smallish project, even a benchtop saw can work pretty well if you put a really good blade on it. My first saw was an Ace BT saw, on sale for $89 I think. I put an $80 or so combo blade on it and it cut like a dream. But you can't do much with larger stock on these little machines, nor does a dado blade work with them. But it might fill in the gap if you get a band saw first.
Re: the jointer and planer questions, of course you can get by (people did for years and years) but a good hand plane isn't cheap either. You'll save money on wood if you can buy rough stock and mill it yourself. But you could get by with S4S for awhile. Problem I've found is that even S4S isn't reliably flat. And of course, it's never the thickness you really want, LOL.
You can edge joint with your router if you need to (or the table saw if that's the first purchase). Face jointing is another matter. Hand planes, or a sled in a planer. If you can deal with the jointer using other methods, a planer will get the stock down to the thickness you need. The Delta 12.5" planer has gone down in price lately and is pretty affordable now.
If you get a bench top saw, make sure that the fence is perfect (90° to the top, parallel to the miter slot) when you unpack it. Don't keep it if there's a problem there. Some might say it's a wasted $100, but I sold mine (with the original blade, not the good one) at a garage sale for $40, so I definitely got my money's worth out of it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If funds are tight, source materials,not tools. I have acquired at little or no cost quartersawn oak etc already thicknessed from breaking unwanted furniture simply by keeping a lookout for items being disposed of. Then designed to suit the material I have.
Great idea and another way to recycle!
john
02blues,
I'll give you an entirely different answer: it looks like the kinds of projects you're contemplating involve significant hand work. With that in mind, might I suggest that you (initially) get neither the TS or the band saw and invest your limited available tool cash in good quality hand tools?
[The following is copied (and slightly edited) from another thread (my text) because I don't want to forget anything and I'm being lazy....]
Here are some that you will find very useful for general woodworking:
Hand planes: low angle adjustable-mouth block plane (probably the single most useful and versatile plane of them all); a #4 or a #4-1/2, a #5 or a #5-1/2, and a #7 or a #8 for bench planes; (a scrub plane, if you're going to do your woodworking exclusively with hand tools, otherwise it's more or less optional); a shoulder plane is also very handy, as is a router plane.
My recommendation would be either old (pre-WWII) Stanleys (be prepared to do some fettling with the older tools) or new Lie-Nielsens (a bit on the expensive side); others will suggest the LV/Veritas planes (moderate $$ to expensive); special-purpose planes can be added, as required. If you prefer wooden planes, ECE, Knight, and Clark & Williams -- to mention just a couple of modern wooden plane makers -- make very nice ones, but they are not inexpensive. Old (antique) wooden planes are not my area of expertise, so I'll have to defer to someone else to advise you on them.
Chisels: a good set of bench chisels (you'll get lots of recommendations from others here; I like the Japanese chisels sold by Woodcraft, but there are many, many other good chisels out there), and a good mallet.
Saws: A good rip and cross cut saw; a good tenon and dovetail saw. Other saws, as required by your projects. Take a look at the Japanese saws, as well as the western-style ones. I use both styles.
Layout tools: a good straight edge; a good marking gauge (I like the TiteMark); a marking knife; a bevel gauge; an accurate try square and a high-quality combination square (you could go with one or the other at the beginning).
Drilling tools: a good "egg-beater" hand drill (get an old Miller's Falls or old Stanley, etc); a good brace (again, get an old Miller's Falls or old Stanley, etc); a standard set of brad-point bits; perhaps a 32/quarters set of auger bits for the brace.
Books: try these sites for books that you may find useful or interesting:
http://www.astragalpress.com/
http://www.cambiumbooks.com/
http://www.woodworkerslibrary.com/
http://www.blackburnbooks.com/
And, of course: amazon.
Misc tools: a sharpening system (oil, water, or diamond stones); a couple of rasps and files (Nicholson #49 or #50, for example); some hand screws and bar/pipe clamps big enough to fit your work (you'll never have enough clamps...); a flat and a round sole spokeshave; a good, solid work bench (buy or make yourself -- there are several threads discussing the virtues and disadvantages of either course of action).
While it's by no means an all-inclusive list, there's not a lot that you can't do with a tool set similar to that listed above, and it's not too terribly expensive to set yourself up with, especially if you buy good quality older tools off that (in)famous auction site or from some of the old tool dealers. And, hand tools (except for the bench) have the advantage of not taking up very much room, either in use or for storage.
One last thing: buy the best quality tools you can afford, so you only have to buy them once......
___
Being...realistic, I have to "warn" you that there is a possibility of a bit of frustration at the beginning of using hand tools. The results you initially get may not be exactly what you were expecting or hoping for. Like many other worthwhile things, developing skills with hand tools takes time and a significant amount of practice. So....don't expect "expert" results right off the bat.
Part of the frustration level -- or lack thereof -- is influenced by the quality of the tools you use....poor quality tools will do nothing but frustrate and discourage you -- because you're "fighting" the deficiencies of the tool while trying to accomplish a task; on the other hand, good or excellent quality tools will make the learning curve much lower, from the perspective that you are not "fighting" the tool to accomplish what you are trying to do. Good tools won't, of course, in and of themselves, make you an accomplished woodworker, but they won't hinder you on your journey to that end, either.
Woodworking by hand is largely a set of basic skills applied in combination with each other. Once you have become proficient in those those basic skills, it becomes relatively easy to apply them to your particular project. An example of a basic skill: cutting to a line. To gain some competence at doing this, you could take some scrap wood and draw a series of lines perpendicular to one edge and use your saw to cut those lines. The first ones may not follow the line too well at all, but as you cut more and more of them, they will begin to follow the line much better. After some period of time/some number of practice cuts, you will develop the ability to regularly and routinely cut to a line without much trouble at all. Practical applications of being able to cut to a line include ripping or cross-cutting accurately, cutting tenons, cutting dovetails, etc. As you can see from this example, one "simple" skill has a fairly wide range of applications.
Other basic skills include hand planing, sharpening your edge tools, scraping, carving, reading the grain of the wood, finishing, learning the appropriate joinery for the purpose at hand, etc. ....there is plenty to learn and then refine; that keeps it from ever getting boring or routine.
Graham Blackburn's book, "Traditional Woodworking Handtools," Garrett Hack's "The Handplane Book," FWW's "Selecting and Using Hand Tools," Aldren A. Watson's "Hand Tools: Their Ways and Workings," both of David Charlesworth's books, and Andy Rae's "Choosing and Using Hand Tools" are all very informative. There are several other books that I recommend; if you're interested, let me know.
These links have lots of good information on hand tool woodworking:
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl#handtools (hand tool info)
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/en.html (Electronic Neanderthal -- lots of great info on hand tools and hand wood working)
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html (everything you EVER wanted to know about Stanley planes....)
http://www.traditionaltools.us/cms/index.php (hand tool info)
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ (superb tool and technique site)
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/ (good tool and technique info)
http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm (tons of info on hand tools and techniques)
http://www.galootcentral.com/ (hand tool info)
http://www.thegaloot.org/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php (hand tool info)
http://www.rexmill.com/ (woodworking info)
Hope this will show you a bit of a different perspective, and be of some use to you.
Regardless of your ultimate decision on tools, I'd like to wish you the best of luck in your woodworking!!
James
I know this is probably a regurgitation of other posts here, but here is the way that I set-up my own shop as being a realtively new shop owner.
1. Table Saw
2. Jointer
3. Dust Collector and Air Cleaner
4. Planer - Mine was a gift otherwise I would've gone with a Bandsaw here.
5. Band Saw
6. Drill press
Also, a good dovetail jig and routers, I purchased a combo kit to save money and I haven't been disappointed! Small air compressor and a pin, brad, finish nailer and narrow crown stapler.
Being that you will be using solid woods versus plywood I would definitely get a jointer and as mentioned in a previous post - 8" if you have the dough and the room.
Number 7 on my list is a Mini lathe for doing pens and aslo spindles. I have the jet with the variable speed and bed extension and I couldn't be happier!
I also have a miter saw and that works in the mix of smaller tools.
Good luck!
What distinguishes a mini lathe from the others?
02blues:
I used to always read with interest everyone's opinion on which tools to buy first, second, etc. I have been building furniture for ten years and If I had it to do over my first investment would be in a good Cyclone Dust Collector, before I even had a machine to hook it to! Its the unseen dust that is the danger, amature and hobbyists woodworkers are lulled into a false sense of security by thinking they do not due enough woodworking to worry about it. Check out Bill Pentz site at - http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/CyclonePlan.cfm
In your particular case I will reccomend a bandsaw first. Normally I would say a tablesaw.Whichever you choose buy a saw that is quality, does not have to be top of the line but not a saw because of price only.Check your want ads, you may be able to get a good piece of equipment for half or less than half of a new saw. If your lucky you can buy both.
mike
Thanks for the notes. Here is the problem...I want them all!
Although I change frequetly I am leaning toward the TS, Jointer, Planer & router. Seems like I could do some good stuff with this set up. (as well as my jig saw etc).
I really liked the RIDGID table saw I saw at Home depot today. TS 3650. I must admit I was impressed with the ridgid line of tools. They all seem solid.
I will check out the air filter link too. Thanks. Dust. It's like high blood pressure. Doesn't cause pain so we tend to ignore it I guess.
And once you choose a tool to get, do an avanced search on it here and see what people have to say, also read some reviews in the various magazines.
1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Hi 02blues
I'm also a new woodworking hobbyist.
I own a tablesaw, router, jigsaw, circular saw, belt-sander & mitersaw.
It has been over one year or so since I purchased a tablesaw, never use it due to limited working space (fact : to rip a 6ft board, I must have 12ft working space using the tablesaw). So, I use my jigsaw most of the time. Of course I use aluminum bar as the guide-fence.
For small projects, jigsaw might be alternative to bandsaw, for cutting thin stock. To me, I have full control when using hand plane as compared to power planer.
Start with cheaper but practical tools, you may add those power tools when you really need them.
Masrol
KUL, MY
I like the hand tool idea as well as power tool use: Do you think a newbie like myself could hand plane stock to resonable specs? I know good planes are not inexpensive either.
<<Do you think a newbie like myself could hand plane stock to resonable specs?>>
Absolutely!! Hand planing rough lumber to dimension is not hard:
Ideally, you need 5 planes: a scrub plane, a #5, a #7 or #8, a #4 or #4/2, and a low angle block plane, but you can get away with a #5 and a low angle block plane -- it's just a little harder.
You'll also need a good straight edge, an accurate try or combination square, a marking/panel gauge, and a pair of winding sticks (you can make these yourself). A card scraper is also handy.
Select a board face for the reference face. Use a pair of winding sticks and a straight edge to determine the high and low spots. Mark the high spots and use the scrub plane to reduce them to the approximate level of the rest of the board. Check for twist with the winding sticks. Correct with the scrub, as necessary. By this time, you should have a roughly flat (length and width) board with no twist and with a lot of troughs in it. Use the #5 to remove the troughs from the scrub plane. (Planing diagonally or straight across the grain in both directions with the scrub plane and the #5 to remove the scrub troughs will significantly reduce tearout in most woods. Then follow up with the #5 by planing with the grain.) Once the troughs are mostly gone, use the #7 or #8 with the grain to plane the face flat. Once you get full length and full width shavings, you board is very, very close to FLAT. Check with the straight edge and winding sticks. Correct as necessary. Finish up with the smoothing plane (#4 or # 4-1/2). Use the scraper on gnarly grain that gives your smoother a hard time, but be careful not to scrape a dip into the wood. Part 1 of 6, complete.
Mark this face as your reference face. All other measurements of square, etc, will come from this face.
Select one long edge, and use the #5 to roughly flatten/smooth it, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Mark this edge as your reference edge. Part 2 of 6, complete.
Use the reference edge and the try/combination square to mark one of the short edges square. You can use the #5 to plane to rough plane it flat and square to both the reference face and edge -- if the short edge is 4 to 6 or more inches wide; if not, then start with the LA block plane. (Chamfering the edges down to your cutting line will reduce tear out on the corner edges; alternative methods are to clamp a sacrificial piece of wood to the edge and let it tear out instead of your board, or to plane in from each outside edge.) Use the LA block plane to clean it up. Mark the other short edge to the desired length (saw it to rough length, if necessary) and do the same thing to the other short edge. Parts 3 and 4 of 6, complete.
Use your combination square or a marking/panel gauge to mark the other (unplaned) long edge to the desired finished width. As you did for the reference long edge, use the #5 to roughly smooth it down almost to the cutting line, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Check for straight and square to the reference face and to the 2 short edges. All 4 edges should now be square to the reference face and square to each other. Part 5 of 6, complete.
Use your marking gauge, basing off the reference face, to mark the thickness of your board around all 4 edges. Flip the board over to the unplaned face and use the scrub plane to plane down almost to the marked reference lines (The bottoms of the troughs should be about 1/16 inch above the cutting line). Use the #5, and the #7 or #8, as before on the reference face to make this face flat and square. Finish up with the smooth plane and, as necessary, the scraper.
At this time, you should have a board with 2 flat, smooth, and parallel faces, 4 flat and square edges (long edges parallel to each other, as well as short edges parallel to each other, and all 4 edges square to the two faces), and of the required thickness, length, and width, ready for whatever needs to be done next.
The first board you do by hand will take what seems like an inordinately long time, but with just a little bit of practice, it becomes nearly as fast as -- and often faster than -- putting a board through a jointer, thickness planer, and sanding sequence.
A couple of things to keep in mind:
Keep your plane irons SHARP!!
If you have only a couple of planes, open the mouth up for the initial rougher planing, and close the mouth for the finer, finish planing.
Let the plane do the work -- don't force it.
Skewing the plane often helps reduce tear out and makes planing easier.
Expect to get a good upper body work out!
<<I know good planes are not inexpensive either.>>
True -- for new planes like the LNs, LVs, or Cliftons -- but you can get good quality planes for a reasonable price, if you buy used pre-WWII Stanley, Sargent, or Millers Fall planes in decent shape.
Good luck, and have fun! There's nothing quite like the sense of accomplishment you get when you have taken a piece of rough lumber and turned it into a nicely finished, dimensioned, board using only hand-powered tools.
James
Edited 3/1/2006 11:11 am ET by pzgren
James, you should have the tool selection and squaring up, steps 1 to 6 replies bronzed. You just put several famous WW authors out of business. I sat here like a bobble head doll going yes,yes,....YES. Let's hope that the reader understands. you can do no more than present the best advice.
Your comment on used planes moved me to recall that in the last 5 to 7 years I found that on E bay Stanley is cranked up by the collectors but Sargent and Millers Falls are usually not ( except for #2 or rare items of any brand). Case in point, a MF #10 aka #4 1/2 for $32+$8 S&H. It had an articulated( two piece type) cap with fuzzy nickel, not NIB but very nice that cleaned up easy. Cleaned up the frog and it's seat and lube all adjustments. It had a very crisp mouth, no rust. Took some strokes on my granite block on 400 wet/dry lubed up on the sides and sole (about 20min.) and she sparkeled. A LN Stanley replacement iron and LN's new chip breaker is $45/$20 and ? $6 s&h. So for $111 you have a world class bailey #4 1/2 ready to go to work.
The Ebay alternatives for a newbie . A Stanley 4 1/2 $125+ plus the iron et al. -a Stanley #604 1/2 $200+ plus iron etc.
A new 4 1/2, LN or Clifton $300/$325 + s&h.
It pays to patient and alert. Best regards. Pat
Sometimes, the prices for Bailey planes can go a bit high but on average, they're not too bad. #9, #1, #2, #212 and a couple of others have been going for a premium price, to be sure. Why someone will pay $2200+ for a #212 or #9 is beyond me. If they want to have every model made by Stanley, I guess that's the price they're OK with. There are deals to be had, though. A 112 went for just over $135 today and most have been $150-$250 lately. Not too long ago, I missed out on a mint low-knob #5 that went for $34.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Aren't those $ just a little nuts. THE REALITY IS THAT THESE GUYS ARE TRADERS AND BROKERS. They buy at $900 (a net $60 plane) and sell it to some wannabe - even if they fabricated a bunch of odd parts-for $1300. I shall say no more in public as this makes me pretty hot. regards, Pat
The problem, as I see it, is that it takes two to tango and there's actually some nimrod who will pay that kind of money for something that can be bought new (and better) for a few hundred dollars. The last #9 and #212 were really nice, though. Both went for big $.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Pat, Thanks for the kind words! That was just a synthesis of many things that I have learned on these forums, reading books, and a bit of figuring it out the hard way. I don't think that any of the better-known woodworking authors are going to go starving in the near future on my account! :-) Have to agree with you on the price of hand planes -- Stanley bench planes have gone up significantly. You can still get decent #4s, #5s and to a somewhat lesser degree, #3s for "cheap" but anything else will cost you several more bucks, especially #7s and #8s. MFs and Sargeants are still a pretty good deal, as you pointed out. One of my favorite planes is a #8 Sargeant VBM that I picked up for about $30; did some cleaning and tuning, added a LN iron and chip breaker, and now have a superb plane for about $100...can't beat that for a #8. Can't argue the point: if you're gonna spend $125+ on a Stanley 4-1/2 and then add $75 or so for a LN iron and chip breaker (not to mention the value of your time tuning and cleaning...), you might as well just spend the $300 for the LN 4-1/2 in the first place and get it over with....you're going to sometime in the future, anyway..... Congrats on the MF #10....you can't beat the deal and end result you got!!! Yes, it does pay to be patient and alert....because every one in a while the opportunity for a real "steal" presents itself.....Tschüß!James
Hi Pat,
Did the nearly same thing with a MF #9 and a Wards Master #5. The MF took a fair amount of flattening on the sole though. I now have 2 planes that are sweet! Fluffy curlies, no sweat!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
Use whatever tool needed to Git 'r Done!
Here's my opinion;Take the money you were going to spend on that table saw and consider that your tuition. Buy some good books and a few old hand tools. You don't need a lot of new planes or fancy planes. At the end of your 6 months take this exam;1) Saw a board straight and true with a hand saw.
2) Cross cut and be able to sharpen a cross cut saw
3) sharpen any rusted abused chisel so it will produce a shaving on pine end grain
4) Plane a board flat without a plane mark.
5) straighten and square an edge with a long plane
6) cut a mortise and tenon joint with a saw and a chisel
7) cut a dovetail joint with a saw and a chiselWork with cheap soft pine, aspen or tulip. No need to learn on expensive or difficult woods. Once you pass your exam, you'll know what tools you need to buy. Adam
Good points. I'm kind of surprised nobody mentioned books sooner, but it's good that you did.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I was talking to Underhill a couple months ago. He mentioned fighting consumerism in woodworking. This site, this magazine is full of it, IMHO. Most of the posts I read are asking about what tools to buy as if that's the only solution to every problem we face. As a community we have to get back to a skills-first culture. That's how FWW began. There's got to be a challenge to woodworking beyond paying the credit card bill.BTW, a great first book is Dunbar's "Restoring, Tuning and Using Classic Hand tools". I also recommend all of Underhill's books, Alex Bealer, Eric Sloane, and Graham Blackburn. Most of these are available at teh local library and well worth the read.Adam
I'm actually a big fan of making do with what's available at the moment and learning how to do things, not just what to buy. If there's just no other way to do something, fine, but having the biggest tool collection isn't going to do anything other than cost money and take up space if the skills aren't there. This country is guilty of consumerism on the highest scale and in woodworking specifically, the shows like DIY, Hometime, TOH, etc make it seem that if you don't have all of the tools on the planet, the job won't turn out well. I would personally like to see more shows that highlight hand tool skills but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it. There have been a couple of shows dealing with sharpening/honing hand planes and possibly chisels, but I haven't seen one in a while. People are more reluctant to put in the time to learn things and want instant gratification, which is a reflection on their lack of dicipline. I sometimes have to include myself in that crowd, too.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Adam,<<As a community we have to get back to a skills-first culture. That's how FWW began. There's got to be a challenge to woodworking beyond paying the credit card bill.>> Thank you for explicitly stating this! Reading through your posts for the past couple of months, it's been an underlying theme in many of them. I fully agree that there is way too much consumerism and way too little skill in comparison. While I'm certainly not a Luddite (after all I'm sitting here using a computer to communicate with someone 2,000 miles away, that I don't actually know other than via a computer....), I see much value in preserving the skills and knowledge of our forefathers. (As an aside, by the tone of your "Arts & Mysteries" series in PWW, you seem to think the same way in that respect. Very interesting, educational, and enjoyable series of articles; I hope you'll do more along those lines in the future.) Nonetheless, I think there is hope: St. Roy's show is one of the more popular shows on PBS and he's going on...how many years now? Also...look at guys like Tom Lie-Nielsen, amongst many others, who have revived quality hand tools; that would not have happened had there not been the demand from people like us who wish to gain skill with traditional tools. Books like the two mentioned below, as well as the market for, as an example, your "Arts & Mysteries" series of articles in a mass-market national woodworking magazine just reinforce the point. One other thing that demonstrates that the hunger for knowledge and skill is out there is the number of schools and classes teaching hand tool skills and how well they are attended. (I have a hard time calling legitimate skill-developing classes and schools "consumerism" although there certainly are plenty of folks out there that are willing to feed that hunger for woodworking skill and knowledge....) Hack's "Handplane Book" and Blackburn's "Traditional Woodworking Hand Tools" are the two books (along with one too many near misses at non-surgical digit removal) that got me started on the traditional, hand-tool-only, skill-centric (is that a real word???) uh...method of doing woodworking. I read your posts with much interest, since you are a well-known and knowledgeable practitioner of traditional woodworking -- also, one who is not unwilling to admit that he is not sure of or doesn't know something -- a refreshing change in and of itself!!! While I don't agree with every single thing you've asserted, I have learned much from your posts, and have also gotten a lot to think about from them. So, just a quick thanks for the educational and thought-provoking articles and posts; I hope that you will continue with them.James
Edited 3/4/2006 9:22 pm by pzgren
Thanks for the nice words. I really appreciate that. Hey and i want to make sure I didn't make out like:
a) I'm a defeatist and all hope is lost. I just don't believe that and I agree with you that there are many signs that skill is selling better than stuff in the ww marketplace. I think that's good for woodoworkers
b) I'm immune to consumerism because I use hand tools. I've been making myself tools (which is very like buying them in many ways) and that's a consumerism. I made the saw shown in my latest article and three other backsaws to go with it. I just finished a new sandstone grinding wheel for my shop. Its something I've been wanting for a while. So I'm just as bad or worse than anyone when it comes to consumerism. I want more stuff. But if you want my opinion, I think this urge should be fought.Adam
I suspect that your "consumerism" is fueled by need, rather than want. If it is actually want, it's so you can do more/better/different work as opposed to just wanting to have more things, if I read you correctly. There is a purpose to it, which is a heck of a lot better than adopting the philosophy of "buy yourself something, you'll feel better". Working in an austere way has its merits, but if someone deprives themself of what they need to do what they do, I'm not totally sure that's a good thing. If you don't mind, I think I'll disagree that making your own tools is consumerism. I would call it "being practical" by not buying what you can make as well as, if not better than, a lot of what is out there. One question for you- if you hate your bench as much as you have said, why not make a new one and sell/donate/give the other one to someone who could use ( needs, rather than wants) it after making one that would make you happy? I wonder why I haven't seen an infomercial at 4 AM selling handtools. Oh, yeah- doing something meaningful is a great way to get a good night's sleep.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
About my bench;I'd love to build a new bench, but I don't want to be wasteful. If someone approched me and said- "You're bench is exactly what I need", I'd gladly give it away and make a new one. Discarding mine just seems wasteful to me. That's part of consumerism too, right? I mean, my bench works, I just want a better one. You know what I mean?As far as running it down in public, I'm extra happy to do so. In my "Ultimate Hand Tool shop" article I turned myself into a cartoon to separate what I think is good from what I have. I think a lot of guys fall into the trap of wanting their stuff to be great and don't allow themselves to see their own failings or how they've grown. When I made my bench, it seemed like a good idea. Now I see I was wrong. Its not just that my taste has changed. I realized my mistake on the first big project. Its was an education one needn't build a bench to learn. IMHO, that's the power of these forums and the chief reason I don't post pictures of my work (you see it eventually anyway). I think we learn from each others mistakes. As we used to say in the Navy, there's blood on those pages (in the maintainence manuals etc). In regards to this thread, I was exactly in the original poster's exact position once. I chose a course few others have chosen and its been a hard road. My biggest mistake was reinventing so many wheels. I should have focused on traditional woodwork from the beginning instead of trying to outsmart centuries of woodworkers who, as it turns out, were smarter than me. Adam
Hello to all:
Thanks for the great perpectives regarding the age old "newbie" question. I am sure many of you are tierd of hearing it asked. Just a few points:
1. Not sure what I will do. I have been buying (and reading) books on the subject for about 5 years. Just bought another nice text by Taunton press: Using woodworking tools by Lonnie Bird. I would recommend it to any newbie. Of course I will be getting my fine woodworking mag each month too.
2. Living in NC. I am sure there are many advantages to living in a woodworking area like this in terms of tools and mills etc.
3. Woodworkers Supply...incredible store that I have been driving past for 5 years. Go have a look if you live near one. Woodtek BS and TS seem very nice.
4. I won't rush out an buy everything I see. I will probably start with more handtools as suggested, learn and build from there.
Cheers.
Adam, As highfigh said, there's a big difference between wanting/needing something to better accomplish some task and "wanting" something to make you feel good because you bought it and that fills (temporarily) some lack in your life..... I certainly don't think you're a defeatist...just a realist: there IS a LOT of rampant consumerism and insatiable demand for instant gratification/instant "expertise" out there. IMO, consumerism has nothing to do with the kind of tools you use....I know of local guys that spend big $$$ on LN planes for the specific purpose of having them gather dust on a shelf...and they're real particular about what shape the box is in, too. More power to them....if collecting LN planes makes them happy, then far be it from me to criticize them for their choice of collectibles...I collect stamps and many people find that incomprehensible...... If you're making tools for use in your shop, I certainly can't and won't fault that....not only are you getting exactly what you want/need in a tool (within the limitations of your tool-making skills...), but you're being economical, too. And, that doesn't take into account the psychological benefits of the satisfaction derived from making your own tools.... I've always been impressed with people who can take raw materials and turn them into something useful or into a thing of beauty or -- best of all -- both. I'm of the opinion that there is "intelligent consumerism" and then there is "rampant consumerism." Intelligent consumerism is more along the lines of buying/making/trading for items that have a use (be that use practical or even just the pleasure derived from having/using that item -- what "practical use" does a framed picture, painting, or a CD of your favorite music, for example, really serve?) vs the rampant consumerism of buying something to feel good or to "keep up with the Joneses," or because it's the latest thing, even if you don't really like "the latest thing?" That kind of consumerism ought to be resisted, IMO, by self-discipline. I'm rambling...so it's time to end this one.James
I like my power tools, but if money's tight, a good circular saw/straightedge combo will get a lot done for you if the parts of your projects aren't terribly large. Then, since you'll need to resaw, a bandsaw will be needed. I would get one with a riser block to alow resawing wider boards, if possible. To smooth the rough surfaces after resawing, hand planes and scrapers will work just fine. Same for smoothing smaller to mid-sized pieces. Great planes are nice, but a few well set up Stanleys will do the job and there are a lot of #4 smoothers out there for about $30. A few good handsaws will help, maybe a scraper, a router and some other smaller hand tools would definitely allow you to make whatever you want. Larger power tools make some operations faster, but if you want to start slowly and work your way into a more well-equipped shop, these will get you going. Look for deals on lumber and always keep your eyes and ears open for deals.
I haven't been using hand planes for long, but have learned enough in these forums that the process has been drastically reduced to a very short time. I now also have a handtool addiction, THANKS A LOT, GUYS! Seriously, for working smaller parts- handtools, a few jigs and a sturdy bench work extremely well.
Since you are in NC you may have the opportunity, whatever machines you decide to get first, to take advantage of all of the furniture manufacturers closing up shop in your area. Here's a link to seven pages of auctions of WW equipment. Much of it is unsuitable for a home shop, but if older machinery has any appeal much is great stuff, far better than available elsewhere at any reasonable cost.
In just 1 of these 64 current auctions, (Mt. Airy Bassett #2), I saw 4 (4!!) 42" Tannewitz bandsaws, with the bidding on them currently at $200-600 each. I don't know what these would cost new, maybe $6000-7000 each? They presumably won't close that low, but given your particular location, and the amount on auction all-at-once-like these days in your area, you might get some real bargains. It would be worth haunting some of the Old Machine Tools sites in advance, in hope of finding someone local who could (perhaps for a fee) help you sort the wheat from the chaff in these auctions.
Here's the link:
http://www.irsauctions.com/index.asp?bhcp=1&flash=8
Good luck, have big fun ...
Clay
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