Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 03, 2004 09:01am | #1

   Hi Mark, welcome!  Although you probably don't "need" either tool to make the shoe cabinet, they're not a bad choice if you're sure you'll continue with other woodworking projects.

   The new Grizzly contractor's saw is, IMO, an excellent choice, far better than a Craftsman.  If you're short on $$, I'd not worry about getting cast iron wings.  They could be added on in a few years if you get a hankerin' for them, and to get them on the Grizz new, you have to go up quite a few bucks because they come with a bigger motor too.

   I don't think you can go wrong with the PC895 Kit either.  I have a 690 mounted in my router table, and the corresponding plunge router for hand work.  There are certainly other fine kits out there by companies such as Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, etc., but I realllly like the new 890 series.  (If you decide you want an extra fixed-base, let me know.  A guy I know picked up 5 of them at an auction last month, I'm buying one from him).

   Best advice:  Don't go tool crazy.  (I should talk, LOL!) 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 03, 2004 10:01am | #2

   Welcome to the wonderful, crazy world of woodworking and Knots..............

   Sometimes I think figuring out what tools to buy (and in what order) is more complicated than deciding what to build (and how to build it).

   I think you're probably right in looking now for a router and a table saw. It is hard to go wrong with any router you might buy. If you stay with this sport for any length of time, like the rest of us, you'll most likely end up with a flock of routers. So which one you buy first is not a decision of great consequence; actually using one will yield more useful information about what you like and don't like about routers than a ton of reviews or a flood of opinions.

   The table saw is a wholly different matter. If you do a search here, you'll see the "table saw war" rages continuously. Contractor vs. cabinet, this brand vs. that brand -- everybody has an opinion, and most seem to be fiercely held.

   So instead of recommending a saw, let me tell you a story.

   When I first got into all this, I wasn't entirely sure which end of a hammer was for pounding nails. But I had a new place, and I knew I needed a table saw to construct the things I wanted to build for the new abode.

   At the time (back in the Dark Ages), a new Craftsman TS was selling for $300, while a Unisaw (Delta now, Rockwell then) was going for $900. My plan was to build the stuff I needed, and then get out of woodworking. Under those circumstances the Craftsman seemed the more sensible route.

   But a wise friend talked to me about the quality work produced by a quality saw, and he pointed out that professional level saws hold their value, and there is always a ready market for resale.

   So, I gulped for a while, dug down in my pocket (deep) and came up with the $$ for the Unisaw, thinking that I would sell it after a year or two.

   Well, I built what I had to build -- and that saw never, ever let me down. I never had to fight it, and its precision drew me further and further into woodworking.

   I kept the saw for 25 years, and sold it for $1000. Not a bad ROI, even factoring for inflation.

   My advice, then, is to get the best TS you can afford, even if you have to dig deeper than you would like.

3. 
   BG | Jun 03, 2004 02:08pm | #3

   Mark,

   Welcome and good luck with your decisions.  Many, if not all of us, have been in your shoes and have lots of mistakes to share with you. 

   One of those poor decisions many of us have made is buying the wrong TS initially...mainly because we had no place to get good advice and we did not have the experience to correctly hear the answer when it came. 

   A good TS and a solid workbench, to me, are essential for quality outcomes to evolve.  The cost for either one of these essentials is easily $1000 each when decked out with the appropriate add-ons eg. dado blades, miter guage, crosscut sled, vises, etc.  The workbench provides a surface for using that router, planing and joinery. 

   You have enough tools right now to make your shoe holder....it would be a pain to do as you would have to work your circular with a straight edge to make the cuts.  A router would make cutting rabbits and dados easier but you'd still be working the straight edge quite a bit...a good solid bench would be helpful here. To enhance the final outcome, a good block plane can help immensely.

   My suggestion would be to hit the tag sales this summer and pick up a bunch of hand tools....buy some wood and build your/her shoe holder....save as much money as you can and in the fall by a big-boy TS and build a router table to hold your 3hp router....lol  
4. 
   DougF | Jun 03, 2004 04:53pm | #4

   Mark,

   For 30 years I worked with tools that would barely pass muster from most of the people that participate in this forum.  Over that period of time I produced work, some of which I am still proud to acknowledge as mine.  

   Since I have upgraded (by upgraded I do not necessarily mean top-of-the-line) virtually every major piece of my shop equipment in the past four years, what I have discovered is the dramatic lessening of my frustration when a fence won't hold alignment; the power isn't quite sufficient and I have to spend more time sanding out burn marks; or, the run-out on arbors produce cuts that can never be squared without running them through the joiner.   Well-made tools use in the manner for which they were designed, produce more predictable results with less effort.

   The bottom line for me is that quality tools do not insure quality work.   One of the other posters was right: you could do the shoe rack project with a circular saw and router, or that matter, with a hand saw and planes.  How well the project turns out is more a reflection on your skills, patience, and attention to detail.   I have seen really crappy work come from people with shops that would make Norm drool.  

   I will put in one plug for cabinet saws or the newer hybrids, they take up less room since the motor is not suspended out the rear of the saw.   And, I have several Grizzly products and I am quite pleased them.  Their customer and technical support has been superb.

   The main thing is to enjoy making dust.

   Doug

   PS I have 30 year-old souped-up Craftsman TS for sale if you're in the Dallas area.

5. 
   chatobob | Jun 03, 2004 07:59pm | #5

   You will get a lot of advice on this one.

   Whatever you do, take it slow.  Remember, those tools you are thinking of buying produce sawdust that you will want to collect (add $400 for a dust collector and $100 for gates and hoses), and all sorts of small particles you won't want to inhale (add $400 for an air cleaner), and then there are all the.........

   You get the point.

   Instead of buying equipment new, you might investigate buying used from woodworkers who themselves are upgrading equipment.  Look for ads in the major metropolitan dailies or on the net.  That's how a lot of us got started.

   For the sort run, you can go back to where you took the router class and use their shop equipment to make the shoe gismo for your girl friend.  There will be a small fee, but lots of help available.  I am assuming they have a shop where classes are held.

   Good luck, and welcome to the group.

6. 
   Alan | Jun 04, 2004 03:18am | #6

   Mark,

   Here I go again....

   I have none of the tools which you and others seem to think are essential.  Yup, I'm a hand tool kind of guy, for lots of reasons.

   It's a lot quieter.  No one I've know of has gone deaf from using a chisel.  You can listen to the radio or carry on a conversation as you work.  It's more pleasant.

   It's safer--lots safer.  Hand tools for cutting are very extremely sharp, and they could do lots and lots of horrible damage if they ever attack--but they don't attack.  To get hurt by a hand tool you have to be the cause.

   There are also "mushy" reasons.  I very much like the idea of keeping old technology alive.  You also have to get acquainted with then material and the tools; there's no "overpowering" wood with hand tools.

   It's much cheaper.  The small fortune you'll have to pay for any of those power tools will get you many hand tools.  If you shop flea markets, garage sales or swap meets, for the price of a cabinet saw, you can get enough tools to begin that project with enough left over to buy some nice walnut.

   I have lots of other reasons as well.  The bottom line is that I simply enjoy working wood using hand tools.

   Something to consider.

   Alan 

1. 
   77J10 | Jun 04, 2004 05:46am | #7

   Thanks to everyone so far for the comments and advice!  Couple more thoughts and questions....

   1.  As for the used tools, I read a lot of posts where people suggest this, but I don't really see where to find such tools.  I live in Nashville - in last Sunday's paper, there were ads for about three tools.  Where on the net could I find ads?  I searched Google and got a few ad sites for this area, but not much on them.  Anyone know of places here in middle TN, or anyone in this area selling tools?

   2.  I thought about trying to build my first project without buying any new tools, but I sort of thought the project itself (or maybe a router table) would be a good introduction to learning how to use these tools.  My idea for the shoe storage, which is very rough at this point, is to build a sort of shelf or cabinet 30 inches wide with an upright board every 10 inches.  I would dado grooves into the support and sides, then fit shelves into them, thus creating 10" wide spaces.  The idea would be to make 'cubbies' large enough to hold 1 pair of shoes each, three pairs per row.  I plan on building this to be about 5 feet tall, or large enough to hold about 30 pairs of shoes.  I thought I would also try to learn some joining techniques by making a box joint, or even trying to learn how to dovetail for the outer walls of this cabinet.  Any ideas or comments would be appreciated!  Am I going way over my head?

   3.  I hadn't thought about the idea of trying to build the project with hand tools, but I wouldn't know where to start there either.  Again, any suggestions on getting ideas or getting started would be appreciated.

   I'm glad I found this site.  Seems like a great place with lots of people willing to share ideas.  Hope I can contribute one day instead of asking the questions!

   Thanks,

   Mark

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 04, 2004 08:01am | #8

   Re: used tools

   I'm sure Ebay has tons of used equipment -- but personally, I would be hesitant to buy a big piece of equipment (expensive to ship, and expensive/hassle to return) without being able to see it.

   I would suggest two avenues:

   1) Check out your local yellow pages for "industrial woodworking equipment" -- and call them up to find out if they deal in "little stuff" like table saws. Occasionally, they will sell used equipment, and often they maintain a bulletin board in the store where people can post tools for sale. And, sometimes a sales person can get you moving in the right direction re: where to go for what you are looking for.

   2) Check to see if there is a woodworking club/guild in your area. These groups can be enormously valuable for getting wired into the local woodworking community in Nashville. Most maintain a website where members can list tools for sale.

   As a class, woodworkers are a remarkably generous and helpful crowd.

2. 
   BG | Jun 04, 2004 02:06pm | #9

   Mark,

   I built something similar about a year ago for my daughter's classroom....thirty cubbies to hold art supplies for each child.  The one concern I would have with your design is the horizontal pieces that have been dadoed into the internal vertical supports...if they all line up...the wood left in the vertical supports between dado's can be mighty thin....unless you use thick vertical pieces.

1. 
   77J10 | Jun 04, 2004 08:09pm | #10

   BG:

   Do you have any suggestions as to how else I could build it?  I was concerned about the strength with dado cuts on either side, but wasn't sure what else I could do.  How did you do the project you mentioned?  I originally thought about doing it like a wine rack where the piece slid into each other to form a square, but I wasn't sure it would be sturdy enough.

   Thanks,

   Mark

1. 
   BG | Jun 04, 2004 09:19pm | #11

   mark,

   I did build mine such that the pieces slid into each other....think its called a double housed dado joint....where both vertical and horizontal pieces are cut half way through to slide together.  However, also, the non-cut through area has a shallow dado to accept the edge of the other piece.  It was easy with a cabinet saw and a dado blade...but could be done with a back saw and gang cutting the pieces and then chisel out the shallow dado.

   Another idea is to set your dadoed horizontal pieces back from the front about an inch or so...which could help maintain the strength of the vertical pieces.

3. 
   CharlieD | Jun 04, 2004 09:32pm | #12

   Mark,

   I caught on to this thread a bit late, so some of my comments will go back to your original post.

   A few years ago when I was even more of a novice than now, I had a chance to ask a friend and master woodworker--a luthier, actually--a single question before he moved from my life forever. I had time for only one question, because I wanted a real answer. After much thought, I asked him the question that I was having the hardest time answering: "What is the key to accuracy?" Each of the understudies that were with us at lunch had an opinion; one said something about the right tools; another, to check your work as you go, because each mistake will be amplified as the project progresses. But the master's answer was simple: have a good, accurate plan, and stick to it. I've always had success when I followed his advice, and rarely have when I didn't. My point: you are doing right to try to get your shoe storage project clear in your mind before you move forward.

   Now, with that said, I'd like to add that, the master must have assumed that I had adequate tools, because when I upgraded from my original $200 POS Craftsman TS to a $500 Craftsman, a contractor's with a decent if not perfect fence mottor, etc, my accuracy instantly improved to the point that I stopped struggling to get my projects to work. The difference was astounding. I've never lost track of that lesson, and while I don't buy the best tools available, as some suggest, I always buy the best I can afford. A note about cheap table saws, for example: that original Craftsman had an arbor that was too short to take a dado (a serious limitation), the fence was impossible to square, the scale was horribly inaccurate, and so on, ad nauseum.

   THAT being said, I'd like to support Alan's suggestion that hand tools are a very real option. I use a mix, but vastly prefer the hand tools, finding them quieter, cheaper, healthier (no lost fingers, no hearing damage, no lung damage) and more rewarding. As an example, I've discovered that while slow, a $20 ryoba can beautifully rip a piece of 3/4" oak leaving an excellent cut and about 1/4th the kerf that a TS will leave, that cleans up with just a couple of passes from a sharp plane. I'll offer this caution: you MUST have an adequate way to hold your work with hand tools--meaning a decent woodworker's bench--decent sharpening equipment and good measuring and marking tools. And, hand tools require at least as much study as power tools to get them to perform the way you want.

   With THAT said, I'd like to recommend that you take a look at Taunton's book called Basics. Peter Korn also has a book on beginning woodworking--I haven't seen it, but always got a great deal out of his articles. That's where I'd start--books, and maybe some 2X4's/pine boards.

   Stay safe, have fun.

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

4. 
   Alan | Jun 05, 2004 01:26am | #14

   Mark,

   Now that you have lots to think about, I will echo what others have said:  your first stop now should be the library or book store.  You have some studying to do.

   As to hand tool use, Saint Roy of Underhill's Woodwright's Shop books (five altogether) are entertaining to read, instructive and inspirational.  If you're seen his TV show you have a sense of what his books are like.  I return to them all the time, both to learn something and to be amused.  I cannot recommend them too highly.

   There are also books on designing furniture, joint making, materials selection, and so on.  Being a good wood worker means much more than knowing how to use your tools.

   If you think you will want to work with stationary power tools--the big electron-destroying, forked-tail, dust-spewing screamers--you still need to study.  There's no shortage of worthwhile books.

   Also, take the advice to find a local club to join, or take classes at your local community college.  These will put you in contact with people who will help you, and more importantly, will get you hands-on experience with tools.

   Alan

5. 
   CharlieP | Jun 10, 2004 06:19am | #18

   First, design of the cabinet.  I built a similar shoe case (like a bookcase) when we moved into our current house.  Lucked out on the size - the space available allowed a shelf wide enough for three pairs of my monster shoes, or four pairs of my wife's shoes.  Never felt the need for vertical dividers.  I am on a business trip, so I can't go measure for you, but you should be able to estimate a good width by comparing the width of 4 ladies vs 3 mens pairs.  Height worked out by looking at a bunch of shoes.  Our biggest mistake was not making enough shelves - I may go back and add more shelves at the top for the rarely worn or out of season shoes - let the cabinet go as high as the ceiling, not just an "every day convenient" height.

   Second, the saw.  The goal should be to make straight, square cuts.  It is far easier to get good results if everything is precise size and absolutely square.  If you can do it with a hand saw, great, but I can't. 

   40 years ago someone gave me a table-top table saw.  I gave it away, because I could cut straighter with a skil saw. 

   For the last 30 years I used a radial arm saw.  Built countless cabinets, etc.  But the RAS is going out of fashion.  Some people say they aren't safe, but it hasn' drawn any of my blood, and my wife feels more comfortable using it than a table saw. 

   A couple years ago I got a contractor saw.   Love it and use it a lot.  The precision is great - I can readily get cuts accurate to 1/64 inch and finer.  The table is flat and stays flat (read "cast iron.")  My rip fence and rails are aluminum, so I probably won't get that accuracy for the next 30 years.  Dust collection is terrible.  The motor hanging out of the back of the saw makes it hard to store in my garage.  So I am already eyeing a cabinet saw ($1,000 to $2,000) or even one of the European integrated saws ($6,000 to $10,000). 

   The goal should be straight square cuts.  If you will be done after one project, a borrowed saw, or something cheap used with extreme care may be sufficient.  But you sound like you will be hooked, like the rest of us.  So the question is whether you buy that good saw now, or as your third, fourth, or fifth saw. 

   $1000 may sound like a lot to get started in woodworking, but how much did you spend on your last PC or last stereo?  Did it last 30+ years like my RAS?

   Good luck with your project.________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   77J10 | Jun 10, 2004 03:45pm | #19

   Charlie:

   Thanks for the comments.  You point about the cost is well taken.

   Couple a questions about the cabinet design:  how thick were the shelves?  how did you join the outer edges of the cabinet together (what type of joint)?  what type of wood did you use?

   The main reason for the vertical supports was to encourage neatness (my girlfriend's request!).  Problem is, if I dado grooves on either side of the vertical piece, I need to make sure it is thick enough to still provide some strength.

   Thanks again,

   Mark

1. 
   CharlieP | Jun 10, 2004 07:05pm | #20

   My particular shelves and sides were made with 3/4 inch plywood that I salvaged from someplace else.  Even if you are planning to paint the shelves, be sure to use good plywood - For example Home Depot quality Birch is sufficient for paint.  I have never been able to hide the surface of construction grade plywood. 

   My usual technique is to dado fixed shelves 1/4 inch into the sides (but remember that the "3/4" plywood is 23/32 or less, not 3/4, so don't cut a 3/4 inch wide dado).  Normally I cover the edges of the plywood with solid wood 1/4 to 1 inch thick, rather than edge banding, but do not extend the dado into the edging.  (In this sense, the edge becomes like a blind/stopped dado).  Today I would use poplar as the edging wood for the plywood, if I were painting it - pine and other home-depot-type woods are softer and will show dings.  With a good table saw, you should be able to cut edge strips out of even a rough-cut piece of lumber (but not as easily as if you had a jointer and planer - and maybe throw in a couple sanders).

   If your cabinet will not be attached to the wall, you should consider including a back - typically 1/4 inch plywood in a 3/8 inch rabbet - you will be amazed at how much stability this adds. 

   Vertical dividers could be 1/4 inch plywood.  If your vertical dividers have tight joints, then I wouldn't worry about a 1/4 inch deep dado in the top and bottom of the 3/4 inch shelf.  As the shelf loads and tries to sag, the bottom of the shelf stretches and the top of the shelf compresses, so a tight filler in the groove in the top of the shelf continues to provide that component of the "anti-sag" strength.  Since end-grain glue is never very strong, you probably will lose the strength of the botton 1/4 inch of the shelf, but it will still be plenty strong for shoes. 

   I continue to be biased against the vertical dividers - they reduce the flexibility of the shelves.  An occasional purse or hat gets stored there, and may take more space than a pair of shoes.  And 3 pairs of my shoes takes the same space as 4 pairs of hers. 

   Ordinary yellow carpenter's glue should be more than adequate.  Nails or screws can be used to hold it while the glue dries, but are not necessary in addition to the glue if you have sufficient clamps. 

   A precision saw is important, but notice that I didn't use a router at all in this project, although it is an alternate way I could cut the dados.  If I wanted a shaped edge (roundover, bead, ogee, etc.) then the router becomes necessary.________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

2. 
   77J10 | Jun 10, 2004 11:10pm | #21

   Thanks.  I may have to rethink the vertical dividers.  I originally saw those as pieces that would extend from top to bottom, with dados cut into right and left sides.  The shelves would then slide into the vertical supports.  It sounds like you are suggesting the reverse procedure.  Again though, you raise a good point about flexibility in using the space.  I'll have to see what the girlfriend thinks, since it is her closet (we’re I'm fortunate we don't have to share a closet!).

   As for wood, I am thinking of using something better than plywood.  I'm trying to match the color and style of a California-closet type system I already installed that has a maple laminate on it.  I would like to stain it, or apply some type of finish rather than paint.

   I really appreciate the input.  Just getting started on my first project is a little overwhelming!  I think I'll get some inexpensive wood this weekend and try a practice run.

   Mark

3. 
   CharlieP | Jun 11, 2004 07:32am | #23

   You are absolutely right that I was thinking of horizontal shelves with vertical dividers, like a bookcase, rather than vertical structures.  Either might be fine, but mine looks very traditional, not odd. 

   Good for you, starting with a "real" wood project.  Find a good wood store (not a super center with an orange or blue decor), and expect to pay $100 per sheet or more for furniture grade plywood, but it is well worth the difference.  For a trial prototype, I suggest an $18 sheet of 3/4 inch MDF from one of those orange or blue stores.  The sawdust is ugly, but it is a great material for prototypes.  A sheet of 1/8 inch masonite for $5 will act like a divider, or go for the 1/4 inch plywood used for underlay, for under $10

   When I started, everything had to be stained, like the commercial furniture that was made from unknown wood, chemically treated, and recolored to match the fad of the season.  I am finally appreciating the beauty of clear finish with no stain on various natural hardwoods, so if you can find the wood that goes with the rest of the closet, without staining it, go for it!  Stain also takes away a lot of your options to repair the project if, er.. well .. in case something isn't perfect. 

   Good luck - and keep us posted. 

   BTW, on tools, I had a cheap sears fixed base router to go with my radial arm saw for many years.  I didn't have a band saw until recently - I do use it a lot, but didn't miss it for the first 50 years.  A jointer is important to straighten boards - either the far cheaper rough cut lumber, or the overpriced retail boards that have been dinged or warped.  There are tricks with a table saw or router that can replace many of the jointer functions (when I use my sharp $100 blade in a well adjusted $600 table saw, the cut is smoother than the joiner makes).  There aren't many devices that can substitute for a thickness planer.  So my sequence of tools would be precision saw (probably table saw), random orbital sander, jointer, planer, router, k-body clamps (at $40 each they rank with the power tools),  drum sander (far earlier in my list than most people would recommend),  miter saw, dust collector, then whatever tool you "need" next because you will know what it is.  Note bandsaw is among the unessential "loved" tools until you get into resawing.   ________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

4. 
   AlbionWood | Jun 12, 2004 08:27am | #25

   Mark, if you are going to use solid wood rather than plywood, you DO NOT need dadoes!  That could simplify your project quite a lot.  The shelves can be held in with screws driven through from the outside of the vertical pieces.  (A recent FHB article showed this works even for bookcases.  The pine bookshelves I made this way 25 years ago also make the point!) 

   If the outside faces will show, countersink the screws and hide them with plugs.  Or just use dowels.  Shoes don't weigh much, so the shear stress on that joint is pretty low.

   Having simplified that, you now can spend more time on the corner joints of the frame.  Get a good handsaw and try dovetailing - it's not really that hard and it's really cool to do!  (Or, if you really want the router, you could get a lock-miter bit and do all the corner joints lickety-split.)

   Having built something useful and possibly even attractive, you will be hooked, and you will easily be able to justify future tool purchases.  Just make something for the GF every time you get a new tool - she'll be driving you to the store before long!"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

5. 
   lawrie | Jun 12, 2004 07:55am | #24

   Hi Mark,

   Wow, a lot to read. Good, passionate advice. Try another angle, though. In the "Tools & Shops" issue of winter 2001 (FWW 153, page 68) is an article by Gary Rogowski (woodworker, teacher, author, FWW contributor) called "My Five Essential Power Tools - Why the tablesaw would not be at the top of my list." Mr. Rogowski recommended, in this order, a bandsaw, a jointer, a router, a compound miter saw, and a drill press. When I read it I could not understand why a tablesaw shouldn't come before a hammer (I mean, they're so big, and they sound cool, they cut pretty darn straight, and they're so big), but after several years of having both a table saw (Rigid contractor, 10") and a bandsaw (Delta 14"), I believe he was right.

   With the circular saw you can clean- and rough-cut boards or sheet goods (including miters). The router lets you trim those to a finer edge if necessary, make dados and modify edges. And with a bandsaw you could rip lengths, resaw new stock, cut curves, circles, etc. There is a lot of flexibility with those three tools. And they take up less space.

   I am always amazed at how often I use the bandsaw for something I thought I had to have the tablesaw to do. And with both, I still use the bandsaw more often because of its flexibility and speed of setup. I also think you would get more bang for the buck sooner in your new craft. Try to read his article before you decide (he says it better).

   Lawrie

6. 
   vern | Jun 13, 2004 07:31am | #26

   I went down thru the comments and they are all good -I think you have the desire --I see this so many times and they get discouraged and lose interest--give yourself time--don't get more projects started than you can finish in a reasonable time-- it would be good to have the buddy system-- better yet join a woodworking club--if it has beginning safty and skill classes ,that's excellant--one thing I look for in a piece of equipment is the capability to repeat- you will appreciate this more and more the longer you do woodworking--another thiong I stress is the aquiring of top notch square and miter square= I have had new and old woodworkers tell me that their saw could not make a square cut if its life depended on it-- the first thing that I would ask them is if they had checked their square for trueness lately aand do you know half ot them didn't know how-- some of them would tell me latter that after they did that and they retired their adjustable square . their problem went away- good quality squares start around $50 and go up and do you know what .if you spend that much for a square ,you are going to take better care of it RIGHT? almost every project you do starts with the square --it makes sense to start right-- I think videos are a good aid but nothing beats a buddy and a landline the very best of luck to youmaking sawdust

7. 
   Napie | Jun 04, 2004 11:01pm | #13

   Mark,

   I spent my first two years of woodworking with just hand tools, a drill motor, and a good skillsaw.  The first stationary tool was a bandsaw.  We still are using furniture made with that collection, and really, it means the most to me because those are the ones I learned on.  I also built plywood runabout with them, I just gave it away after 21 years of great fishing!

   Your best bet, get good books on the subject, and make lots of sawdust.

8. 
   ian | Jun 06, 2004 03:01am | #15

   Mark

   I have no tools other than a circular saw, drill, a workbench, and a few clamps. 

   DON'T STRESS you have the most useful tool already – a workbench
   If you're starting with small projects, save yourself a ton of $$ dough and stick with hand tools for a while.  I count a circular saw as a hand tool.  Assuming that the saw is OK quality wise, ie the blade doesn't wobble, get yourself a couple of decent blades (rip and cross cut, or rip and combination) and a couple of straight edges to act as cutting guides.  One German power tool manufacturer has an entire workshop system based arround straight edge guided hand power tools (circ. saw, jig saw, router).  A great option for small spaces or areas (like an apartment) that are only available part time.

   get youself a decent adjustable mouth block plane (and sharpening gear) – I recommend LN only because I have one and love it.  Others will wax lyrical about the Lee Valley model. 

   resist the urge to power up your tools.  But if you MUST get a router, get a trimmer to start with.  These small routers are inexpensive, light and therefore easy to control and with the right combination of bits will pretty much put any profile on an edge you want.  Used with a straight edge they will also double as a jointer for thin stock. 

   I also have no experience building anything!

   Hey none of us did when we started.  The hardest part of any journey is the first step and the only journey you'll ever regret is the one you didn't take — should make that my tag line!

   the easy way to start is with S4S stock

   Ian

   you can never have too many clamps

1. 
   joelc | Jun 09, 2004 05:15am | #16

   I think I'll take a whole different approach on this one.

   Before you invest in any serious tools, I would suggest taking a good entry level course.  Not only will you learn the fundamentals and safe operation of equipment, you will also see whether you enjoy the hobby or not.  Before I bought any serious equipment, I took an evening course offered by the local school board.  For $100 I was able to enjoy 32 hours of shop time over 8 weeks with an instructor on hand.  We had use of a 12" General jointer, 24" planer, and a couple General table saws, to name a few of the tools available.  Since then I have taken a more advanced course at a local studio and finally now I'm investing in the tools I really need ... (or want).  I know I love the hobby and feel comfortable investing a few grand knowing it's money well spent. 

   If you still want to buy your own tools, I agree that going used makes a lot of sense.  You would be amazed at what you can do with an inexpensive contractor table saw and a nice sharp high quality blade.

1. 
   CajunDan | Jun 09, 2004 08:27pm | #17

   Hi, Mark

   You have gotten a lot of good advice above, but I just want to second what joelc said; and maybe combine it with what Alan said: Take a hand tool course.

   You would be surprised what you can accomplish with only about $100 worth of tools. The skills you learn there will carry over into power tools later, if you still choose to go that route.

   I think Alan would agree, even if you become a hand tool neanderthal, you probably won't regret having a good tablesaw.

   Regards,

   Dan

9. 
   dillon | Jun 11, 2004 06:52am | #22

   You probably have more than you need to digest right now but I'll throw this in anyway. I was lucky enough to find a power tool store and manager thereof who, I learned quickly, I could trust to give me honest opinions and not "sales" pitches (in reality, that is the best salesperson). I have never regretted any of his advice.  So if you can find one in your area, go and talk to them. Tell them what you are thinking about, and I suspect you will get a pretty quick feel as to whether they are trying to pitch you something or are trying to provide you a service.

   I was in a similar position as you 3-4 years ago, except at that time I had a radial arm saw (so I opted not to go with a table saw first) and a Craftsman mid-range fixed base router, in addition to some basic hand-power tools (circular saw, drill etc...). Here's the way I went: 6" jointer/planer, about $400 (Jet) (amazing how quickly it can clean up circular or radial arm saw cuts). With that addition, joining boards together to make any kinds of cabinets, shelves, bookcases, shoecases etc is infinitely easier. Next came a 14" band saw. (again, a Jet, but I'm not pitching any one brand...but do strongly suggest that you get something like either FineWoodworking's Annual Tool Guide, or (guess I'm allowed to say it on this site) American Woodworker's equivalent annual issue).  The band saw gets use practically every time I'm in my basement shop, for all manner of things. When I moved on from creating furniture for kid's bedrooms etc, and decided to replace a full set of kitchen cabinets, for space reasons in particular, I went with a DeWalt table top saw that came with a stand. Again, around $400, and it has served me very well. ( I can't disagree with those who suggest that if you have the money and the space a good quality full size table saw will last more than a lifetime, but, if money and space are an issue, I'd go with the tabletop with stand [you can get a 4x8 sheet of plywood cut for you at the lumber yard (also makes transport easier!), or I'll use my circular saw in the garage and bring the smaller pieces (I have no trouble at all with 4x4 on my tabletop) into the basement for final cuts and jointing. Last, (at least for your purposes presently, ignoring, in particular, my "toy" purchase of a lathe!), I upgraded and got a P&C plunge router for around $250 (once you get a good router, don't scrimp on getting good quality bits!). At that time I tossed my inexpensive Craftsman router table and built my own (what a difference...so many more things you can do, and so much easier!). I've bought a lot of other tools in the interim, including a lot more hand tools (once you get the hang of sharpening and using a plane, or, even for that matter, using a chisel that you've sharpened correctly, you'll be amazed, and, I suspect,  you will treasure your truly "handcrafted" items even more than "power-assisted" ones), but these 4 items have proven indispensable to me for not a huge investment.

   Lastly, I'll suggest a few reference materials for you, in addition to the above-mentioned tools-guides...

   Readers-Digest Do-it-Yourself book...good one-stop shop for all kinds of things

   American Woodworker "Working with the Router" by Bill Hylton and Fred Matlack...excellent resource...use it all the time, and got the plans for my router table from it.

   I use several different on-line suppliers depending on what I need, but if I had to pick one for selection, quality and price, take a look at Lee Valley, and get their catalogue.

   Finally, another "bible" I use often..."The Complete Guide to Sharpening", A Fine Woodworking Book by Leonard Lee. You'll be amazed what a sharp handtool can do.

   Good luck, and I hope I haven't violated any rules by mentioning specific products/resources.