I need to finish a new mahogany newel and handrail. I’m debating between Shellac and Varnish. I like the warmth of shellac, but wonder about durability for something that gets a wear and tear from people grabbing it. Any thoughts?
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Replies
Yeah... use a polyurethane varnish. Shellac is not durable enough for that application and will soften with heat and handling until you'll have to use alcohol to scrub the sticky mess off and start over!
Nonsense. Shellac is the hardest finish you are likely to find, unless your handrail is going to be subject to heat in excess of 180 degrees Fahrenheit it will not soften from heat.
Poly's main (only) attribute is outstanding abrasion resistance. You know why it is so resistant to abrasion? Because it is soft.
Shellac will work just fine for a handrail and will be infinitely easier to repair, if that is ever needed, than varnish of any kind. If you want more abrasion resistance than shellac, use an alkyd resin or phenolic resin varnish. Both are close to poly in abrasion resistance without all of the faults that poly brings to the party.
Based on my own personal experience your reply is utter nonsense!
Would you like to tell me which part of my reply I was wrong about?
beginning , middle and end.
OK, so you have no substantial argument, you just don't like being contradicted. Gotcha.
Thanks for the informative post.
Another knots guy Frenchy talked about putting shellac down on his floor. I scratched my head and wondered. Now I have used a bunch of shellac but I just didn't think to put it on a floor. So.
I made up some samples of poly both satin and gloss. I made up sample pieces of orange shellac, garnetlac,seedlac, and buttonlac. Ok- I have a bunch of this stuff in flakes and I only mixed up a little bit-enough to cover a few feet of 2 1/4" red oak strip flooring.
I waited 1 month for the varnish to dry before the hardness test.
The satin varnish is not what you think. It is soft and it does not hold up to even gray scotchbrite pads very well. Do not use this for your base coat if you insist on varnish.
The gloss is harder. Go to the bank on that.
Surprise. The shellac is the hardest. To my suprise it was amazing. Amazing enough that I went back and tried a heavier cut(5lb, 4lb, 3lb). The stuff is great.
I had a flooring friend come over and I showed him my tests. He went back and showed some customers the nice aged look of the orange shellac and the customers went wild-- "just like mom's floor" kinda stuff.
To add pleasure to discovery, the shellac doesn't stink the house up like varnish and the finish is ready for additional layers very quickly. Additionally, as another said: repairs are a breeze.
I'm not a shellac salesman but I'm very impressed with the shellac. Fortunately, when I scuff my varnished floors next time I can just lay down some shellac right over the old varnish and go back to drinking beer the same day. Hoooooooooooooorah.
Don't take my word now... just do a couple of small test pieces and you'll be a bug sap user too.
Edited 9/25/2007 7:40 pm ET by danmart
danmart,
AH Hah! a convert! You have seen the light! Go and preach to the masses!
If you don't mind I'll plagerize your findings as I continue my ministry..
(you think I could ever get a discount or something from Zinssers? )
We'll have a meeting soon of bug sap users..
Frenchy
Sorry I misspelled your name. I'll go back and edit.
Just the name of course.
dan
frenchy,
That there bug sap juice is what will be going on the new floor I'll be putting on the summer cottage up North next year!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Actually I am a regular user of Ziinser's shellac based sealcoat and also find lots of opportunities to use their Bullseye stain blocker (which is pigmented shellac). I have nothing against the shellac products in general. I find them to be hard too (overly so and thus vulnerable to chipping... at least when used to build thick finish coats). I have several products that I regard as quite significantly superior for handrail finishing though. I have also removed old alligatored and gummy finishes from numerous antique surfaces that I suspect were shellac finishes. Because the Ziinser's products are different from older traditional shellac finishes (in proprietary and unrevealed ways) it is possible that they will perform in superior ways. I am not yet convinced of that though and not willing to experiment on my customer's projects.
Old dark alligatored surfaces on antiques may have had little to do with shellac, even if that was an original finish. Over the years lots of things have been done to old furniture. Some old books on carrying for antiques would have them "cleaned" with mixes of BLO (or raw linseed oil) and vinegar, for example. But shellac gets the blame rather unfairly, I think.
Those old gummy surfaces you spoke of; I have run across those more times than I care to think about.
Often it is a shellac surface underneath. In my experience, it is that witches brew of boiled linseed oil turpentine that was, and still is, used as a polish that is the culprit.
Of course throw in whatever else the owner could throw at it and you get sludge.
When working on site, shellac will build nicely and dry just as quickly. Without question a shellac finish will inherently glow. It does have some excellent properties. If you don't want to experiment on a customers project, try one for yourself.
A urethane will give you that thick finish.
Beauty is in the eye.
Peter
Peter28,
I have a problem with drips when using shellac and I'm not sure how to remove them.
I'm finishing a maple shaker clock. A thin coat of Zinzer's orange followed by two full strength brushed on coats. On the edges I've got darker drip marks. Any suggestions?
I had the same on a bed i'm making. Used a "card" scraper, then lightly sanded w/ 240, being carefull to not go thru to the wood.
JamesS
BG
Try my overly thinned approach, flood it on and never ever go back over it, ever, even 10 seconds later is a mistake. If you miss get it on the next coat..
Frenchy,
I was actually trying to do your approach using a brush and 1lb cut on the initial application. The problem came in when I needed to re-position the shaker clock to finish the application...do I try to maintain a wet edge or let what's been applied dry a bit...also, it's magnified using amber shellac. However, the clean-up (drips) is not that severe, I'd just like a more effective way of cleaning up the drips.
BG
Wet edge? shellac? How? Please tell me how! Shellac's nature is to dry extremely fast. I mean it starts to dry in seconds the way I thin it.
I've tried the neat and tidy approach, I mean who enjoys cleaning up a mess, Right?
It simply doesn't work for me. Oh maybe if you apply a 3 pound cut you might have a few more moments to hold a wet edge but I sure didn't.
That's when I reverted to a technique an auto painter showed me.. Basically thin it out, flood it down, and all the drips run together leaving a drip free finish..
Sounds massively wrong and some people simply cannot do that! it goes against their very nature..
THE AUTO PAINTER WAS AN AWARD WINNING PAINTER SO HE REALLY KNEW SOMETHING. He was paid some really big money to paint show cars and high end auto's like Rolls Royce and other expensive collector cars.
I digress,
Here's what's wrong with my approach.
first you use more denatured alcohol than is called for.. second you have to apply more coats, and third it's like cliff diving, you can't chicken out once you take the plunge..
I've found it's faster than other ways of shellacking.. since the coats are so thin they dry really quickly and there is no overnight waiting while it dries.. when you do it with this approach the finishing can all be done at once with a brief 15 minute pause a brief 30 minute pause and then a final wait of about an an hour while the third and final coat dries..
Should you want the glass smooth finish that shellac is capabable of you have two real choices. French polish, reasonable if you are working with something smaller. (Insane for massive projects)
Or the color sand approach. start out by block sanding with 320 grit and go grit by grit right up thru 4000 grit and polishes.. (always block sanding)
It doesn't take all that long! your initial mistake will be to over sand.
all you want to do is get an even buff coloring, shiney spots need additional sanding but once you have that buff coloring stop!
then go to the next grit.. don't be tempted to skip grits because that will come back to bite you! and besides it's slower!
By "full strength" you mean straight out of the can, right? That's about a 3-lb. cut, which is a bit too goopy for a good brushed finish. As frenchy says, thinning it will help a lot, although I don't think you have to go quite as far as he does. Thin it with denatured alcohol to at least a 2-lb. cut (the directions are on the side of the can), and try that.
No matter what you do, you're not going to get a perfect shellac finish "off the brush," but if you're reasonably careful you can get one that's good enough that it requires only minimal sanding with 320 grit to smooth out.
-Steve
Saschafer,
Correct, I went full 3 lb cut on the second and third application. My plan is to sand progressively from 400 to 1,000 padding on a thin coat between sandings. Where I have the drips I wondered if there was some technique for re-melting the shellac and easily removed. Given this is waxed shellac the sanding paper clogs up quickly....maybe a bit of scraping would help.
Dewaxed shellac clogs sandpaper, too. (That's about the only thing I don't like about shellac.) A good no-load paper (e.g., 3M Fre-Cut) helps, but you still have to be careful.
You don't really need to go finer than 320 between coats.
As Peter says, padding shellac is the way to go. Your hands get stickier, but that's a reasonable trade-off for not having any drips. ;-)
-Steve
Edited 11/20/2007 9:35 am ET by saschafer
Steve,
One of the sanding aids I've used with de-waxed shellac is sandarac. Used in small proportions, say 10%, it acts as a stearate.
It will not soften the film to any great extent either.
Sticky hands? Tight fitting gloves are a wonderful thing. When I've had to put a pad down in a hurry, I just slipped the glove off right over it.
There have been times when I work bare handed. The insults from friends was rather creative on my "nail polish"
Peter
Peter,
Thanks for the sandarac tip; I'll try it.
I don't really mind the shiny fingernails, and gloves always seem to get in the way, no matter how well they fit, so I avoid them if I'm working with stuff that isn't going to hurt me.
-Steve
BG,
The two full strength coats you spoke of were a bit too thick to work with. You can follow the directions on the side of the can and thin it to a two pound cut or a bit less.
The drips are probably caused by your brushing technique. You are pulling the brush from an edge and your bristles are over hanging at the start. The result; drips on the edges. You might also consider your brush may be too wet at the start.
Start your brush stroke even with the edge, not over lapping, or just shy of it. If you have a spot that didn't get coated, just reverse your brush stroke on the next coat.
Getting the drips off the edge; use a card scraper, razor blade or the blade from a utility knife to give it a light scraping. I would follow that with a fine paper such as 320 and sand very lightly. If you sand it too hard you will sand through the adjacent areas that were not as thick as the drips
Another way; give them a light sanding being careful not to cut the adjacent areas too much and follow that with a light blending with a maroon scotch pad.
Also, you should consider trying padding shellac at some point. There is lots of info in the many finishing books as well as here in Knots on various techniques.
Good luck.
Peter
bigfootnampa,
You've discovered another strength of shellac.
Thin is in!
if you make a thick coat of shellac it isn't as durable as a thin one.. I do three overly thinned coats while over thinning because does three wonderfull things..
First because it's so extremely thin it runs like crazy..
NO, wait! that's great thing!
If you quickly flood it on the runs all evaporate quickly and you don't get the typical run mess! You know what a run looks like in ordinary paint? Well, a run in overly thined shellac is nothing! It doesn't leave the drip looking thingie.. It does force you to flood things on and do it really quick which prevents the mistake of going back over (something you should never ever ever do with shellac.. if you miss something let it be! Never go back over, even 10 seconds later is a mistake)
Second it dries really really fast which encourages you do do the job quickly (the whole secret to doing a good shellac job)
third it prevents buildup. Buildup is bad! it's the fundamentental problem with allagatoring..
Hey Danmart,
This is why I love this website!
In your test you mixed your own shellac. Can I expect the same results from Zinsser shellac? I'm selecting a finish for a dining table that's pretty soft wood (spalted sycamore) and have been testing finishes. Before I just used oil or a gel varnish on my projects. I absolutely love the look shellac provides and right now plan to use two coats of shellac and two or three coats of varnish for my table top. Any thoughts or suggestions? I saw another post where some one recommended a wood hardner and may play with that. The wood I have is absolutely beautiful and I don't want to lose any of that with a bad finish or poor selection.
Thanks!
Sawdust Ray
Shellac isn't a wood hardener, if the wood is soft from the spalting you should do something to harden it before you start applying a conventional finish. You should definitely experiment with the hardener followed by a finish on test pieces before you do anything with your table.John W.
So all of you guys who are using shellac on your handrails aren't ending up with a big sticky mess? Who would have thunk it?
Rob
Rob A.
If you look at old antiques most aren't big sticky messes, in fact the only failure of shellac I've ever seen is when way too much shellac is used in an attempt to get high gloss. What happens then is as dust collects and the wood shrinks and swells according to humidity. It slowly developes alligatoring. It's still hard and comes off easily with alcohol.
Sticky shellac I suspect isn't shellac or it's shellac improperly mixed with thinner or something..
I know Frenchy. Read the first couple of posts in the thread. :-)
Rob
Rob A.
Great! You said it well in the third post! I do forget who said what so I do tend to contradict the same myth time after time..
Maybe because I keep hearing it from so many people who just seem to be repeating something they heard or read someplace. If I ever do that again don't hesitate to call me on it and I'll apologize again..
Have you ever noticed how little pressure and how intermitente your touch is on a handrail?
I've used shellac many hand rails and newel posts. I've also also French polished quite a few mahogany rails and posts.
I was just in a clients home where I French polished their rails and posts in 1995. There is a minor touch up that needs to be done on the bottom of the post. The rest of it looked pristine, and yes, they have 2 kids. The touch up will take me about ten minutes.
One mahogany rail that I FP had no color in the wood other than the shellac. I used blonde as base and then started adding a little de waxed orange and a little ruby to it. The rail absolutely glows.
There are pros and cons to any finish. The amount of pros with shellac easily outweigh the cons.
Peter
In reply to Quickstep's original question , I would say to use both shellac and varnish. I use a "spit coat" ( a 1lb cut or at most 11/2 lb cut) as the first coat, making sure that the substrate is finish sanded to 220 and either tac ragged or wiped and vacuumed well, then apply shellac in a fullwet coat without stopping.In otherwords do not dally and have a chat while applying it . Shellac as a spit coat must be applied fast. Give it at least one hour at 68°F before sanding, even though it will feel dry after five minutes. Then apply a good varnish with UV protection at 5 or no more than10‰ thinned for first coat. I use a Wooster small cage roller handle and black foam roller to apply and then "lay it off" with an ox hair varnish brush.Give it at least 24 hours at room temp to cure before sanding with 320. Apply last coat with same method only full strength this time. If there is dust that has settled in final coat( as vanish is a slow dry medium) then if you wait at least a week for a full cure then the varnish can be rubbed out if required.
Edited 11/20/2007 6:30 pm by lsteed
A few years ago I stained and shellaced our railing that I picked up from the salvage shop. We have a very steep staircase so the railing gets a lot of use. The finish still looks great. I think I used a de-waxed orange shellac that I had previously mixed up for a furniture project.
I have used shellac quite successfully on floors and woodwork with few problems, and have lived with the results for years in a home full of children. In an application like the one you are looking at, I wouldn't have any hesitation. The real key with shellac in a traffic area is to let it cure before it gets much contact. I find that on floors, the final coats can require 48 hours before furniture should be placed on them. They will be dry enough to walk on before that, but if you push it, you'd have little dull spots to re-coat. Fortunately, the cure is as easy as a wipe with a DNA-dampened rag, or a few brush strokes with thin shellac. Still, it is easier and better to let it cure. Even then, a week or two is advisable before aggressively sliding chairs and such over it.
On a handrail, 12 hours would be enough for the final coat to be cured to touch, 24 for normal usage.
This has proven out for me both with Zinsser and with hand mixed flakes. I use Zinsser for floors and woodwork, and mix my own for furniture.
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