http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=19c09d4f-7f83-468c-8bc3-f2d51dd722a7&k=92011
Lee Valley founder fears for future
Says high dollar, rising costs may force company to move shop, cut workforce
Kate Jaimet, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Monday, December 10, 2007
The high Canadian dollar is threatening to drive Ottawa’s Lee Valley Tools company out of the manufacturing business, says the company’s founder and former president, Leonard Lee.
But Mr. Lee, 70, said there will be no layoffs in 2008 for the 125 employees in the company’s manufacturing branch, which makes fine woodworking tools in a small plant beside Lee Valley’s retail store.
Mr. Lee said Lee Valley has never had layoffs in its 30 years of operation, even though its manufacturing operations have decreased by about a third over the past three years.
Founded in 1978, Lee Valley sells fine woodworking and gardening tools from retail locations and through mail-order catalogues to customers in Canada and the United States. Almost a quarter of the products are manufactured by the company, Mr. Lee said. The others are either designed by Lee Valley and made to its specifications, or bought directly from manufacturers around the globe.
More than half of the company’s mail-order business comes from customers in the U.S., Mr. Lee said, and the devaluation of the U.S. dollar over the past six years has hurt those sales. While the Canadian dollar was worth just 64 cents U.S. in December 2002, it now hovers near parity at 99 cents.
“What (American customers) used to buy for $6, they now buy for $10. Or they don’t buy it. So sales go down.”
He said the difficulties are not unique to Lee Valley, but are shared by all manufacturers in Canada and in Europe.
However, he added, there are some problems specific to Ontario, where 500 of Lee Valley’s 900 employees are based.
Mr. Lee has long railed against the Ontario government’s health tax, which requires employers to pay a levy for their employees’ medicare coverage. His complaint is that the tax is based on payroll, not profit — essentially giving companies an incentive to cut jobs to lower their costs.
Mr. Lee said Ontario made another wrong move this fall when Premier Dalton McGuinty promised in his re-election campaign to create an extra statutory holiday called “Family Day.” The holiday will fall on the third Monday of February, beginning Feb. 18, 2008. Mr. Lee said payroll for that day alone will cost Lee Valley $100,000.
“He announces it as if this is something your government is giving you. The government isn’t giving it to you. The taxpayers at large will have to pay for it for government employees, and of the private-sector employment, the business owners will pay for it,” Mr. Lee said.
“It’s suddenly a new employment cost. You get enough employment costs, you move the labour out of the country.”
Replies
The rapid turn of the tables that has occurred recently vis a vis the two dollars has certainly made life interesting, eh? I'm optimistic that Lee Valley will do all they can to keep the manufacturing going. Hopefully, their faithful customers will continue to purchase the fine products they offer, both Canadians and US customers. Comapnies like Lee Valley are quite rare these days -- small, family owned, excellent customer service, innovate thinkers, etc.!
Mr. Lee has long railed against the Ontario government's health tax, which requires employers to pay a levy for their employees' medicare coverage. His complaint is that the tax is based on payroll, not profit -- essentially giving companies an incentive to cut jobs to lower their costs.
Mr. Lee said Ontario made another wrong move this fall when Premier Dalton McGuinty promised in his re-election campaign to create an extra statutory holiday called "Family Day." The holiday will fall on the third Monday of February, beginning Feb. 18, 2008. Mr. Lee said payroll for that day alone will cost Lee Valley $100,000.
"He announces it as if this is something your government is giving you. The government isn't giving it to you. The taxpayers at large will have to pay for it for government employees, and of the private-sector employment, the business owners will pay for it," Mr. Lee said.
"It's suddenly a new employment cost. You get enough employment costs, you move the labour out of the country."
Imagine that, an employer who cares about his employee's has the unmitigated gall to criticize a government that is just trying to help the little guy. It's not their fault they don't understand the first thing about creating products, or profits, or jobs. They just want to be nice to people and have people like them. So please stop expecting them to think things through to their logical conclusion and just find a way to do what they tell you without cutting any jobs or wages, Mr. Lee. After all, you are the business man. Figure it out.
Rob
Rob Lee has commented on this article on the canadian woodworking forum. He says many of the remarks were taken out of context and that there is nothing to fear as far as Lee Valley moving it's manufacturing overseas.
Lee
Hey just remember the famous words of Ronaldus Magnus
“The most terrifying words in the English langauge are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.”
.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
"Hey just remember the famous words of Ronaldus Magnus“The most terrifying words in the English langauge are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.”I talked to the IRS today and I asked why they don't have a place on their web site where people can click on a link to set up payment schedules, etc. He chuckled and said, "You do realize that you're talking about the Federal Government, right?".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Lee, might you have a link to that Canadian forum? [Edit: it's OK, I found it] There's stuff being written over at WWA, some people are in a bit of a panic. Would like to give links that might set the record straight.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 12/12/2007 10:18 am by forestgirl
The dollar parity issue has been huge up here. At one point the CDN dollar was worth $1.10! I think the problem is increased by the ease of internet ordering.
Books for instance were a big issue, I could order them from the company website much cheaper than I could buy them from the store! Plus there was free shipping...
In many cases people were expecting our prices to fall rather than US prices to increase... I recently was looking at a Oneway chuck for my lathe. The differences in prices (including shipping) make it cheaper for me to order from Woodcraft rather than Lee Valley. Remember that the chuck is Canadian made however. It seems to me that the Lee Valley price reflects the true cost, while the Woodcraft represents a discounted price. Make sense since woodcraft probably negotiated the purchase at a lower dollar. If the dollar stays high I would expect the Woodcraft price to increase.
http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19321
I read the thread on WWA beginning yesterday. The thread on WoodCentral and WoodNet have more of Rob's explanation as well.
the WN thread:
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=handtools&Number=3396034&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all
Take care, Mike
Hey Mike,
Do you get over to Sawmill Creek any? They had a thread going and then the mods yanked it because it was getting political. So they made an announcement: You can't discuss the topic in a political sense, and you can't discuss its moderation. Ha Ha Ha
BTW - Any closer on those saws of mine? Drop me a line if you can and give me an idea.
Thanks,
Lee
All Sawmillcreek allows you to do is post pictures of any unused items you've bought from Lee Valley, as long as you and none of your relatives have ever worked for the place.
I didn't realize you weren't allowed to comment on the moderation until this. pretty funny.
Edited 12/13/2007 10:27 am ET by MattInPA
Hey Matt,
Don't forget - you can list all the cool stuff in your area that is on Craigslist, gloat over the tool you just bought, or show off that great home depot pine potato bin you built over the weekend.
Lee
Sawmill creek should just have a tab for posting pictures of your balanced check book.
So let me get this straight, the payroll for Lee Valley for 1 day is $100,000? The company has 130 employees so this translates to aprox. $770 per day or $96.25 for hour. Assuming this is a fully burdened rate including employer taxes, health care costs, etc. the number is not credible. If it is true, Lee Valley is failing not because of high exchange rates but failure to control it's costs
Read again - 500 not 130:
However, he added, there are some problems specific to Ontario, where 500 of Lee Valley's 900 employees are based.
Mr. Lee has long railed against the Ontario government's health tax, which requires employers to pay a levy for their employees' medicare coverage. His complaint is that the tax is based on payroll, not profit -- essentially giving companies an incentive to cut jobs to lower their costs.
Mr. Lee said Ontario made another wrong move this fall when Premier Dalton McGuinty promised in his re-election campaign to create an extra statutory holiday called "Family Day." The holiday will fall on the third Monday of February, beginning Feb. 18, 2008. Mr. Lee said payroll for that day alone will cost Lee Valley $100,000.
I don't think that I ever quoted that number. It certainly wasn't my number. I think you may have responded to the wrong message.
Forestgirl,
That link is here
(Thanks to you I learned how to do that hyper-link thingy)
Basically, here is what Rob had to say (qoute/unquote)
Hi All - Just revisiting a few of the comments made in this thread...Firstly - the reporter did not get basic facts wrong - just the context... there will be a clarification printed tomorrow, and the reporter feels terrible about the hoopla that went on. Perversely - we hit an all-time US internet sales record yesterday...The issue we have with the provincial Gov't and "family day" is that the provincial government gives away another paid holiday - but business has no choice but to pay for another stat holiday. At LV, we already have 52 "family days" - we call them Sunday here...to add insult to injury, business also pays "payroll" taxes on the salary paid for statutory holidays.All of these additional enshrined costs make all manufacturing less competitive. By all means - increase taxes on profits..... but don't continue to make our industries less competitive. The additional stat holiday will cost jobs - simple as that..Cheers - Rob
"He announces it as if this is something your government is giving you. The government isn't giving it to you. The taxpayers at large will have to pay for it ..
You bet! Just like here in the USA. I shudder when I hear something 'free' from the Government!
Sounds like the same thing that happened with all the Manufacturing in the USA.
I ordered a new faceplate for my OneWay lathe last week. In the conversation with the order desk the fellow complained about the loss of sales due to the dollar parity. I guess "economics" do matter.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I don't think it is just the dollar being equal (that is a HUGE part but not all of it) Some of it is the fact that the economy is not doing well, The cost of everything (gas included) is up, and jobs are noting keeping up with pay raises. So in short their is a shortage of available money to spend and the cost has gone up a lot due to the week dollar. I feel this as I just ordered a BUNCH of stuff from LV a couple weeks ago and got hit with at least a 10% increase in cost over what I expected to spend (this was due to the dollar issue) Does not sound like much but it was a $400 plus order so that was about $45 or so more then I expected. While this did not effect LV (I bought what I intended) it did mean one less gift under the tree for Pops this year.
Still I can see why they are not happy. As far as I know we do not have a SINGLE mandated holiday in the US. We have a lot of government holidays but none that we require to be given off.
Well I hope that LV does well, but I just noticed in the local paper that Ford is talking about closing some plants in Canada. The logic being that they may as well use the US plants as the Canadian plants now that the cost are about the same.
Doug
"but I just noticed in the local paper that Ford is talking about closing some plants in Canada. The logic being that they may as well use the US plants as the Canadian plants now that the cost are about the same."
This isn't just a dollar parity thing. A huge incentive for GM/Ford/Chrysler to build in Canada has always been that government health insurance reduced costs dramatically. Now that the UAW has agreed to administer a health trust for its members in the US, that advantage is greatly diminished. The health tax LV is complaining about is an Ontario tax that in comparison would be peanuts to Ford, but hits a very small company like LV much harder.
Jim
yikes not good at all. hats off to Lee Valley for making it this far against the current. Look at moving to Kansas City. There is a stable labor force, the cost of living is reasonable, its in the middle of the land mass, and in Kansas a very friendly pro-business government climate.
"...its in the middle of the land mass..."
And the advantage of that is...more tornadoes?
-Steve
I hope not!
Ed Harrow,
I dislike businessmen who complain about politics..
Whatever their viewpoints they would be smart not to discuss them publically. About half of their customers would have opposing views and that may cost more lost sales than anything else..
Finally to complain about the cost of workers is the most fundamental error a busnessman can do..
Sure China may pay much less for wages than Canadians earn but China is also investing massive amounts of money in modern plants, equipment, and infrastructure. .. stuff that makes our best efforts look hopelessly obsolete..
The differance is going to quickly disappear as the relative value of the dollar and other currancy's change, add the increasing cost of transportation because the oil used on those container ships isn't cheap anymore. Then finally customers will look at the made in China label and no longer want the item..
If you want a classic example of moving a successful company to offshore production look at Clark forklifts.. When they were in Battle Creek Mich.. they were extremely profitable and held more than 40% market share. today it's rare when the squeeze out a profit and their market share is low single didgets..
Frenchy,
You disgruntle: "I dislike businessmen who complain about politics".
Personally I think that even capitalists should be allowed to have their say in a democracy - only not too much of a say. It sometimes seems that business and businessmen have huge advantages and rights over the rest of us, these days - courtesy of the politicians, their mates (sometimes they are even the same lads and lasses).
Of course, business and capitalism does currently generate a great deal of our well-being and wealth. I would not want to stop the likes of Mr Lee doing what he does, for instance. Them tools are useful and good! There are many such goods - eg FWW magazine and associated website.
But the LVs and LNs are, sadly, exceptions to the rule that seems to determine normal modern business (especially big busines) behaviour. View a typical modern business as a person and you tend to think, "That lad is a lout, a bully and a detriment to the community". Strangely, woodworking businesses are often old-fashioned and not at all loutish.
Loutish was not always the normal mode. Businesmen used to take pride in the communities from which they sprang and feel some responsibility toward them. Now they all live in remote country estates or luxuriate "abroad" to avoid their personal taxes. They treat the rest of the world as some kind of trash can.
The worst ones are those who think that they have an absolute right to persuade us to buy (and sell us) any dangerous, nasty stuff they like. I am thinking of burgermen, cheap alcohol purveyors and the bad dream men of hollywood, as prime examples. They do harm and justify it by shouting, "My profits are sancrosanct and large"! Sadly, greedy government treasuries often turn a blind eye to the harm and gather in the salestax.
We best not mention the arms salemen, as this is an American site and many of them folk are well addicted to their nasty popguns. Apparently they believe being armed to the teeth gives them safety and independence (until someone else with a popgun gets in the first shot, then they no longer hold that belief, or any, as they are deed).
A funny thang, capitalism. Can't live with it, can't live without it.
Lataxe, a sometime consumer and awkward customer. (And please don't shoot the messenger, Mr Wayne).
Lataxe,
Having grown up with the likes of Businessmen who reinvest in their communities and make sure their employees are fairly treated. It hurts me to see what has deteriorated into inherited wealth turning the running of the company over to some business school graduate who's only interest is to maximize the rate of return in order to earn the big dollars..
That happens all of the time lately and instead of businessmen providing leadership they are often guilty of providing a bad example.
> I dislike businessmen who complain about politics..
> Finally to complain about the cost of workers is the most fundamental error a busnessman can do..
Frenchy,
I see that you are in sales/marketing. With all due respect, I do not believe you understand the business climate here in uptight and increasingly social Ontario. Corporate, employee, personal, and retail taxes are all substantially higher here. My father is in a similar line of work as yourself and has been working for himself for years. Barely eaking out a profit in his section of retail, for reasons not entirely his own, he shuddered when Bob Rae (who should have stayed in academia) passed Sunday shopping, and again when he raised health taxes for employers (there is a much longer list, btw).
Being american, you probably have no idea what kind of taxes we pay up here. South of our border, Rae would have been linched as a commie. In the present, Pants-On-Fire has scored a personal bonus on the backs of business and got away with it. We already have more paid holidays than you do. If you were a guy taking personal risk and employing Ontarians with such a tax structure and making maybe 5% profit, you just lost almost 10% of your own income.
The small business owners drive more than half the economy and are more often down to earth, humble, and much less well off compared with their degree wielding showoff corporate executives (spelled t-h-i-e-v-e-s) like Conrad Black, Frank Dunn, Tom Parkinson, Eleanor Clitheroe, Michael Cowpland, et al. I do not believe the Lee family falls in the latter group. As far as I'm concerned, since he's running a successful family owned business employing hundreds of people, he has a right to voice his opinion any way he sees fit. Its the large corporate execs quietly offshoring that are not complaining at all.
Someone should be complaining. We are currently losing mfging jobs in this province at the rate of over 60,000 per year.
Andy
Just to clearly, do you have government mandated paid holidays? We do not have a single government mandated holiday. We have some that most of us get off (and the Government types get a LOT off) but their is nothing requiring my boss to give me any day off much less to pay me for it. (other then the fact that I would walk if I did not get some holidays)
Doug
> Just to clearly, do you have government mandated paid holidays? We do not have a single government mandated holiday.
Nine or ten days (depending on province) of paid holiday per year forced by gov't. I'm not saying holidays are bad but we have enough of them. If you work FOR gov't here, you have 12 days.
There are many other handouts. I don't disagree with all of them, but how much more do they need to give away and have to tax us more?
Andy
Andy,
"but how much more do they need to give away and have to tax us more?"You know, Andy, things were never this bad before they started putting Flouride in the water.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
May I point out to all that in Canada there is single payer health care which is covered by taxes. There is also mandated cost control on pharmaceuticals which has resulted in some drugs approved but not marketed in Canada. There are obviously advantages to their system and others to ours but both aspects need to be factored in when considering what system we would like here. There ain't no free lunch (or breakfast or dinner).
Andy,
Modern politicians are Rationalists - they go via theory and Grand Schemes that are mostly wishful thinking, derived from some peculiar Utopian dream or other. They pay lip service to science but are in fact witch doctors (and very poor ones too boot). They don't bother with the facts or testing the theory before implementing the technical "fix". Only the theory matters, no matter how ludicrous.
When "the fix" fails, it is we citizens who are to blame. Dagnabbit, we didn't all fall into line and stand on our heads in just the right manner! Never mind, we have another New Theory today, so much better than the last one! (And another for the day after that).
I preferred the old fashioned politicians, who didn't have principles, ideals, visions and all that other bollocks; their intent was simply to do well for their country and all the people in it, whatever the necessary methods. They were disinterested - that is, no axes to grind of the mad-theory variety. They all died in 1954.
Now we have theoriticians who sit in ivory towers dreaming up Schemes. They fashion policy-levers which make gross changes and have two main effects: a huge number of unforseen and unintended consequences; the opposite effect from the intended effect on the specific policy target .
Nor are these starey-eyed apostles all Socialists; today even the so-called conservatives are a bunch of rabid revolutionaries, hatching wild schemes just as removed from reality as the other lot. In some ways they are worse, as they are all heavily partisan towards The Corporations and intent on Power At All Costs (you and me pay).
One virtue of Tradition and an approach that retains what works (even whilst tinkering to improve it) is that babies do not go down the drain with bathwater - as in workers get an extra day holiday but then lose their job when the employer goes bust (lots of extra holiday then).
Will that old-style statesman-like politician ever return? Seems unlikely, as ideaology of one sort or another is always easier than thinking and making hard decisions which address facts rather than wishes or dreams. Also, it is unfashionable to serve; they now want to Big Themselves Up (as the saying goes).
Lataxe, an evolutionist not a revolutionist. (Not an "ist" of any kind, in fact).
What complicates the system in Canada is that you have 2 levels of govt., rarely in synch with each other. The new holiday is a provincial, not a federal one. You are legally obliged to give employees certain days off, and to pay them for a specific number of holidays a year. Some employers who already give more than the statutory minimum, eg. 2 days at easter, now claim that while they now have to give an extra day off, they don't have to pay for it. That should make for some happy talks with the unions. Incidentally the new holiday is in response to repeated demands from people who point out that Canada has fewer holidays than any other country. The concept of unpaid holidays didn't enter their thinking.
LV's main beef seems to be with how health taxes are administered, and I'm afraid they won't get much public sympathy. Ontario has a seriously underfunded healthcare system. In addition to hitting companies, the govt. imposed an annual personal health tax that has everyone crying in their beer. Everyone wants better benefits, nobody wants to pay for them.
Jim
Jim,
I am a happy resident of the United Kingdom where health care is still pretty good and universal. Many other public services are still OK too - just.
Of course, the modern politician cannot leave well alone and insists on "improving" everything. They currently think that the management machinators of private enterprise, along with their familiars the consultants, can better run things like schools and health care, using the mechanisms of business - profit motives, cost-cutting and the like. Of course, the mechanisms of one type of institution (making and selling gew-gaws) are not usually a good fit to the needs of a different institution (educating youth or making people well).
I like the idea of high taxes and wealth redistribution, as all folk are not good at exploiting their neighbours and the most succesful exploiters cannot be allowed to own the whole world. Soon they would implement a zero-tolerance policy for all other humans, as this removes the risk of losing a groat or even a shekel.
But I also think wealth-creators deserve their reward and should be encouraged, even helped along if there is a Bad Time. This is what society is for, otherwise we might as well all build a castle now and put the oil on to boil, sharpen the arrows and ready the torture chamber.
What irks is the fellow who comes in from the planet Zog (otherwise known as the Sociology or Political "Science" Department of The Postmodern University of Neverneverland) and imposes all that spurious bureaucracy, planning, bean-counting and other worthless activity on the hapless populace. Why cannot they content themselves with chairmanship of the local tennis club or some other place where their politicking and power-bids have no impact on the real world?
Where are the politicians that set up our National Health Service; or those that fostered a Britain that was "workshop to the world"? They were ousted by red-eyed demagogues who had all read Ayn Rand and similar. Just now they are modelling themselves on those hollywood producers who make films in which everyone is shot and there are lots of bangs with flames.
But I am ranting now. :-)
Lataxe, bored with making beech things (it is a wood of little character).
Of course, the modern politician cannot leave well alone and insists on "improving" everything.
The Canadian Fedral poloticians seem more content with find a scandal to bring the other party down...
The provincial government out in Alberta like to try improving things... recently they brought in a new oil and gas royalty program that will see investment in the province drop by billions, and cost hundreds of jobs. They did it because it was popular (screw 'big' oil), and there will be an election shortly.
The point to remember is that Big Oil can walk away now;they'll be walking back soon enough. Alberia is where the recoverable oil reserves are and they will eventually, if not sooner, be developed.Why shouldn't the people, who own that wealth,retain some of it?
And Alberia is NOT at all a socialistically inclined province, but it was the province which first introduced a paid holiday in February.b
Jeema,
I wrote that message so long ago!
Big oil is a catch phrase used by people who don't understand the industry. Big oil really only applies to a few companies. There are hundreds of 'small oil' companies that generate tonnes of wealth for the province. These companies aren't in a financial situation to go very far, and now they can not make a return in Alberta.
Stelmachs idea that you can increase royalties (essentially taxes) and not decrease production is well just stupid. It has no basis in reality. The industry openly admitted it could accept small changes in royalties, increases in Oil and Oil sands production seems to be workable. The Natural Gas Industry here has been killed. Royalty increases in most areas are not the 20% they report, but closed to 40%. In even shallow gas areas natural gas prices will have to increase to over $10 before they become economic. Soming they have not done since right after hurricane Katrina.
The idea that Alberta is overflowing with oil and gas is a bit of a misconception. Alberta is an expensive place to work, reserves are on the decline here.
The people don't own wealth they own oil and gas. If you can not sell it, it's worthless. Someone needs to find it, extract it, refine it, and find someone to buy it. That person accepts all the risks, and don't kid yourself the risks are not small. The province and the oil companies should look at themselves as partners rather than adversaries.
Stelmach may get his extra 1.4 billion in royalties next year, but the province will lose in the long run. Already two large Canadian companies have announced that they are reallocating their budgets elsewhere to a tune of 1.3 Billion dollars. The amount of money per land sale, and the amount of land sales has already dropped in a time when they're on the increase in BC and Saskatchewan. Licenses for drilling, pipeline, and seismic has drop off significantly as drilling has been reduced. So yes, Stelmach may get his 1.4 billion, but how many people wont work over the next year?
Edited 1/6/2008 3:14 pm by Buster2000
I missed making my real point, which is that the current furious rate of development places huge strains on the resources used to develop and is necessarily wasteful of some of them. Alberia could use some slowing down. Why should Canada bring in Koreans and Chinese workers when the next cycle of bust will see our own people out in the cold again? I'm but I'm retired now, but remember trying to find work in 1978. A more sustainable rate of development benefits the working person more than the corporations...I was a certified B weldor in Alberia, by the way.
alberia?
Alberia. Go to Ft. McMurray in the winter.
Ah, you must mean Alberta. Since you've spelled it Alberia twice in your previous post, and once in your latest, I was confused. I thought you meant Algeria since the "b" and "g" keys are right next to each other, but that didn't make sense either.
The industry was already self adjusting. Low Natural gas prices, and high labour costs were already slowing projects. Essentially what the governement did was short circuit markets forces and kill an important Alberta industry. It's also important to realize that the Oil Sands development isn't representative of the industry as a whole.
I think most companies are continuing their old sands plans, tempered by market forces. It's the Natural Gas industry that is really going to suffer, and I hate to see hard working people out of work.
I work in the exploration side of things. I do believe that there was room for royalty adjustments, but the government is naive in its final decision. Lots of hard working Canadians will be out of work by the end of 2008.
**
Are you in Alberta still? If so what part?
Is this passage of yours referring to Rob's "industry"?"The industry was already self adjusting. Low Natural prices, and high labour costs were already slowing projects. Essentially what the governement did was short circuit markets forces and kill an important Alberta industry."
Is this passage of yours referring to Rob's "industry"?
No we're really off topic. I was refering to the Canadian Oil and Gas industry. It was suppose to read 'Low Natural Gas' prices. Though the industry is also having issues with a low US dollar, obviously commodities are traded in US $$. Canadians look at $100 oil, but forget that Candaian Oil and Gas is drilled and developed in Canadian dollars... Expense has gone up, while sale price hasn't...
In the end, Rob shares some of the problems that the Oil industry is facing. The provincial governement is taxing him in a somewhat indirect (and direct) method, US dollar... though his product does command a bit better price.
No, I've been back in BC(Sunshine Coast) a while now and completely thawed out!
Lataxe,
It's because all these politicians haven't a clue what life is like anywhere near to the life of a commoner. Same deal here across the puddle!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/14/2007 3:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Fewer holidays in Canada? Have they look south? I have (get paid for) New Years Day, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving (only Thursday) and Christmas. I have to take the day after Thanksgiving, as vacation, and I work a full day New years Eve and Christmas eve. And non of those does the government require my boss to either give me or pay me for.
I will admit that in a union or government shop you get about twice that, but we are not required to have it. So if someone in Canada thinks they are getting the short end of the stick they really need to look around.
Doug
Doug,
You blokes in the US shouldn't have too many holidays as you will waste them watching pointless and unfathomable games on television, whilst eating tasteless burgers or donuts full of Dow-Jones stuff and drinking watery "beer" (coca cola with the taste taken out). I have seen it in your "Simpsons" television programme.
And don't forget: the Chinese are coming. They are getting quite good at that engineering so you must all work a bit harder.
Lataxe, retired now, thank the Lawd. :-)
> You blokes in the US shouldn't have too many holidays as you will waste them watching pointless and unfathomable games on television, whilst eating tasteless burgers or donuts full of Dow-Jones stuff and drinking watery "beer" (coca cola with the taste taken out). I have seen it in your "Simpsons" television programme.Lataxe, I've been watching intently for 18 years now, and I'm starting to wonder if that program is really accurate. Life in the US might not be exactly as shown, even though there is a Springfield in almost every state... Andy
Andy,
It's pretty accurate. Especially the parts that take place at the nuclear plant. They all have safety directors just like Homer (it's amazing that we don't have more meltdowns). And all business owners in the U.S. are just like C. Montgomery Burns (just ask Frenchy...I'm kidding Frenchy, sort of). You know the type, greedy, miserly, miserable old men whose only pleasure in life is screwing over the little guy. Yet, somehow we scrape together enough money to have our woodworking tools, computers, and high speed Internet connections. Just the necessities that make this struggle to survive bearable.
Rob, just having a little fun.
Hey, I don't think they get too few -- I'm retired. Let 'em work till they drop, like I did.
Don't you get Easter? That apart, the ones you name are what Canadians get, at slightly different times and with different names. Service workers quite often have to work some of them, in reality, e.g. the Civic Holiday, whatever that's supposed to celebrate. Why anyone would want a day off in February in Canada I don't know. Sit at home and enjoy the shortness of the day?
Jim
> Ontario has a seriously underfunded healthcare system. In addition to hitting companies, the govt. imposed an annual personal health tax that has everyone crying in their beer. Everyone wants better benefits, nobody wants to pay for them.Jim, I want the people who are using them to pay for them. Just user fees, not the whole bill. Without accountability, our costs are rising at about 9%/year which far outpaces inflation. But people don't want that. Instead, they want to shop on Sunday which raises the cost of the goods/services they buy. People in this province are their own worst enemy, not the honest businessman (or the crooked ones). Andy
Andy,
Follow our lead, give a tax break the majority of which goes to the wealthy and watch what happens to the economy.
The Candian dollar will once again slip in value compared to say the American dollar..
We'd like paying less for our oil and plywood (not to mention diamonds ;-) ) and you'd still keep losing jobs at the rate you are..
Very few really understand taxes.. most think they do but almost nobody really does..
Everybody looks at the amount they pay and want it less, the truth is as long as the tax code is fair you should want to pay more..
Think about that, Let's say last year you paid $50,000 in taxes. This year if you pay $100,000 in taxes it will be a banner year won't it?
Stop complaining about the amount of taxes you pay and start worring that the tax schedule is fair.
"Stop complaining about the amount of taxes you pay and start worring that the tax schedule is fair. "
Who gets to decide what's Fair? Under your theory of "fair", when you go to the store and you pay 2x times the price for that tool as the next guy and ask why and the clerk says, well he deserves to pay less than you!
I would say quit complaining about how much money someone else has. If you want to have as much money as the next guy, work your butt off and go get it. It's what made this nation great! Finally, if I have money and want to give it to my children who's damn business is it anyway, its my money! I am what some would consider upper middle class, but I begrudge no rich man (or woman) his rewards for hard work. Bill Gates can give his fortune to his kids and I have no problems with that. For the government to come in and rob a corpse is vile and disgusting. Being jelous of the rich never improves one's lot in life. Depending on government to bring you happiness will only cause you misery and make you willing to give your freedoms up to get that nickle. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
Low taxes are good (but define"low"). As to a definition of "fair", that is quite difficult so let's forget it. On the other hand, I bet you have a good idea when someone is being unfair to you, eh? :-) Personally I feel that morality of that kind (justice as fairness) is best left out of economics and we should employ practicality instead.
I like to pay tax when it's used for the purpose of fostering "the good society" in which I and others can earn plenty and spend it on the pursuit of happiness (rather than on armaments and fences to fend off the other anarchists). Certainly I wish to be safe and free enough from rabid competitors not to worry about becoming a slave or dead; and being able to earn enough to pay the taxes without it being painful.
Right now, I live in such a society, which is a pleasant condition even though income tax is about 25% and sales tax 17.5%. This tax allows, amongst other benefits, armies and police forces to keep the more enthusiastic "businessmen" out there from making me their slave. Of course, if the same benefits can be achieved with less tax and better politics, bring it on! Ah,there's the rub - better politicians and how to create them?
You can pretend that "there is no society" (M. Thatcher), merely a bunch of rational individuals making sensible economic choices and trading happily with their neighbours, with no need for government. I suggest you try living in one of those countries where there is no effective government and see how long you last trading with your neighbours in an unregulated way.
Of course, you may be "strong" enough to kill off all your competitors before they do it to you (or enslave you); but the chances are you have got all soft and used to the happy, safe and fair conditions of western democracy (I know I have). Tough chaps in that ungoverned, unregulated country will eat you alive then tie your twitching remnant to their mill wheel, to get the last bit of value out of you.
No, all in all, I prefer a strong government, even if the politicians do need reminding now and then that they are our creatures and not vice-versa. Also, they really must stop wasting my taxes on pointless wargames and subsiding their Big Business friends. There are much more serious matters to address (eg support for the small business backbone and the folk who are employed therin).
Lataxe, a happy citizen and taxpayer.
Lataxe:
Combined tax schedules for the USA at this point, excluding Social Security retirement payments (into a bankrupt system), take just under 50% of the national income.
For me, as self employed, and living where I live, I pay 15% social security and related, a marginal rae of 35% on income, 8.25% sales tax, plus real estate taxes, fuel taxes and various other levies. There are some deductions involved, but when all is said and done, +- 45% of my income goes to people who know better how to spend it than I do.
Police, fire, military, roads -- all good and necessary things. But we also pay for several armies of bureaucrats who are not the most productive people in society, and who will all have far earlier and richer retirements than I will.
Fair? Guess it depends on point of view.
J
Joe,
I agree wholeheartedly that there are too many bureaucrats getting paid too much and interfering with stuff they ought to leave alone. Of course, I was one for a good while and spent some time doing useful stuff but also a lot of time doing stuff that went down a drain somewhere.
I often "joked" to my dear colleagues that our jobs were a special kind of social security scheme - we had to sign on every day (and the process took 7.5 hours a day) but we got much higher benefits (our pay) than those ordinary social security recipients. Needless to say, not all saw the humour in this.
The problem is this: what to do with the 80% of the population who do nothing productive? This includes many bureaucrats but also the plethora of people making pointless gew-gaws for sale, conjuring money from thin air on wall street and providing ludicrous hairstyles for ladies. Then there are the management consultants. In fact, the list is long and depressing.
Harold Wilson told me, when I was a lad at school, that the folk of the 21st century woud lead a life of leisure, with robots and computers doing all the production. In truth he was part right as here we are with that 80% of folk not producing and not needing to (there are still plenty of goods, more than ever in fact). However, we seem to be stuck with the Protestant work ethic (an outgrown mode if ever there was one) and no better means to distribute wealth than the consumer/producer model.
So all them bureaucrats, hairdressers, gew-gaw makers, management consultants, advertising executives, et al have got to have pretend-jobs in order to get a wage.
It's time our society got over the this 19th century model and derived a new one.
I like the "make useful stuff at home and give it away" mode. If we all did this (retired or otherwise) rather than sit in front of the tele or play bingo, there might be many beautiful articles, personal services and a generaly better world than is engendered by mad money makers and their armies of wage slaves.
Who knows, even global warming and international warfare might be avoided? :-)
Lataxe, not entirely at one with the world.
For me, as self employed, and living where I live, I pay 15% social security and related, a marginal rate of 35% on income.
The 35% marginal rate kicks in at 350K taxable income for a joint return. I understand that you think you pay too much in taxes and maybe you do. But you are in the upper 1% of income. You probably work very hard for what you earn, but it is a bit unseemly for wealthy people to complain about their taxes.
Not so. On a joint return, the marginal rate is 30.5% at $109k, and the 35.5% rate starts at $166k. So that is for two salaries. The highest rate of all is 39.1% which on a joint return starts at $297k. Those are the facts. Look 'em up.
More subjectively, I am very far from rich, but even if I were I wouldn't understand your sanctimoneous tone when it comes to how I feel about taxes. Whether or not they are onerous depends entirely on the overall financial circumstances of the taxpayer. Furthermore, there is a great deal of theory and empirical evidence that higher rates are bad for almost everyone in society.
J
"On a joint return, the marginal rate is 30.5% at $109k, and the 35.5% rate starts at $166k. So that is for two salaries. The highest rate of all is 39.1% which on a joint return starts at $297k."
You're looking at some old, old tax tables. The 2007 rates and the income levels at which they kick in, for individual income tax, married filing jointly are:
10%
0
15%
15650
25%
63700
28%
128500
33%
195850
35%
349700
"Those are the facts. Look 'em up."
Likewise. Only this time I suggest looking at something more recent than 2001.
-Steve
Then there's ATM.
That's AMT, not ATM.
The Alternative Minimum Tax can never cause you to have to pay more than the base rate. All it can do is cause you to not be able take as many deductions.
-Steve
Sorry for the typo. I understand the implications of the AMT all too well. I wasn't weighing in on anything other than the new twist that the AMT is taking money from many more pockets these days than it was ever intended because it wasn't indexed. In other words, just a drive by commnet about how out of pocket tax payments are more than just literal rates.
"In other words, just a drive by commnet about how out of pocket tax payments are more than just literal rates."
Sure. But one thing that people seem all too willing to neglect is that except in a couple of very specialized scenarios, the tax rate tables give the "worst case" scenario. Any given person's (or couple's) actual net tax burden is always less, and often considerably so. For my wife and I (filing jointly), our marginal tax rate was 28%, but our net tax rate was only 16.4%. We were right at the threshold of the AMT, and will likely exceed it this year.
-Steve
Steve,
if you are close to the AMT line delay recieving payments untill next year if you can..Don't forget to put the maximum you can in your IRA and yoru 401K tooif you have one..
I've known some people who borrow money on their credit cards at some nasty interest rate to do so.. since they can pay the credit card comapnies off next year they may only pay a month or two of interst so the tax savings of avoiding the AMT is still worth it.
there is much discussion underway about indexing it or changing it.. remember the golden rule of taxes, delay, delay, delay..
I don't think we're going to be near the line this year--the company that I'm part owner of did too well. ;-)
I'm already maxed out on my 401k, etc.
-Steve
Steve, congradulations,
However money management is the trick I've used carefully in order to ensure the government doesn't get more of the tax dollars due to that AMT law.. Does your company have a cafeteria plan? Can you fund that to get yourself under the AMT number? There is a lot that can still be done right up to the December 31 deadline..
Good point, and I suppose it is good news. By the time I account for all the phased out deductions, I am only somewhere in the 28% to 30% range.
However, my subjective points stand.
J
bones,
Assuming we are speaking about the progressive tax schedule it is simple concept..
those who have the most need to pay the most..
it's a universal concept..
If I have one car I pay insurance on one car, if I have 10 cars I pay a lot more in insurance!
Which has more to lose,, a homeless bag lady or Bill Gates? So shouldn't Bill Gates pay more to defend the country and keep it working than you do?
Let's keep this simple.
a progressive tax schedule..
Less than $10,000.$0 in taxes due it leaves you $10,000 to spend
More than $100,000 $10,000 due it leaves you $90,000 to spend
More than S1,000,000 $250,000 due.. It leaves you $750,000 to spend..
Now tell me you don't want to pay as much taxes as possible..
> a progressive tax schedule..
> Less than $10,000.$0 in taxes due it leaves you $10,000 to spend
>More than $100,000 $10,000 due it leaves you $90,000 to spend
>More than S1,000,000 $250,000 due.. It leaves you $750,000 to spend..HA! I laugh in your general direction. :) Frenchy, you and Englishy (Lataxe) should live in Canada for a while and THEN you would understand progressive taxes. They start at zero if you make $10,000 and reach over 50% in the highest bracket. I'm in the highest bracket and I'm not rich. You don't have to make much to far surpass the 25% mark in this cold, socialist state. If I was paying English or US taxes, I'd have enough left to buy a CNC every year or two. Sure, we have health care and 12 month maternity leaves, but we pay for it. Btw, we're waiting for 40cm of the white stuff overnight if our taxes weren't bad enough. ;) (That's 16 inches for those of you who spell colour incorrectly.) Maybe that's where the road taxes go... Andy
Andy,
OK using your tax rates, (you didn't tell me either how much you had to earn to reach those plateaus or what deductions and exemptions are available to those who do)..
So I'll make up numbers, if I'm wrong please correct them and use correct numbers..
Zero taxes if I make $10,000
50% taxes if I make a million dollars? that still leaves me with $500,000 compared to the guy earning $10,000. or I get to spend $490,000 more. Pretty simple right?
Please note I didn't use any of the many deductions I'm sure are available.. Here In America we have 22,000+ pages of tax code and much of that are deductions the average wage earner can't use.
Don't fool yourself.. we pay for healthcare here too! The differance is that you pay less for healthcare than we do,, by a lot!Or we do completely without any real health care except dire emergencies..
So should I buy the Veritas Tucker vise for $599.00 before the next catalog reprint when it goes up to $679.00? Difference are the two different prices between Canadian and US dollars.
mvflaim
America is in for some pretty horrific inflation to pay for Iraq AND THE TAX CUT..
Same stupid thing we did during Vietnam and that led to 20% inflation. So the answer is yes buy all that you can now because the prices you'll pay for things in the near future will be significantly higher..
Actually, a tax cut would stimulate the economy. We need more of them not less accompanied by cuts in Discresionary SPENDING. If taxes go up, it only makes taking everything offshore more apealing and its happening at an alarming rate! The purpose of being in business is to make a profit. If it's a corporation, this idea is "maximize shareholder equity". Yes I am a business grad. Where some go wrong (I said some), is they think too much about the short term (next 10k), and not the long term which is where maximization of equity can occur. I constantly find it amusing that people moan about the big evil corporation and then in the same breath complain when the 401k drops because of a 100 point drop in the market and subsequent drop in market cap values of their stock holdings. In the corporate world it is not what have you done for me , but what have you done lately. Besides, the backbone is the small business not the big corporation. I guess this should move to the cafe. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
You may want to check your facts; either that, or stop making them up -- we have not had a 20% inflation rate since the Depression.
pzaxtl
So what was it during the post Vietnam period 19%, 18%? Does that make the statement wrong? What are you some kind of accountant? Get a life this is the internetexact facts are readily available for those who need that level of exactitude..
So what was it during the post Vietnam period 19%, 18%? Does that make the statement wrong? What are you some kind of accountant? Get a life this is the internetexact facts are readily available for those who need that level of exactitude..
Then you obviously did not make use of the internet to check your facts. Although, you do make use of it to post bogus claims laced with gross exagerations and inept misrepresentations. I guess we can give you credit for at least that much. I think you should consider changing your screen name from "frenchy" to "BS" -- much closer to the truth and certainly easier to type.
If you confront Frenchy with incontrivertible facts he will skulk away and refuse to engage you in debate.
Ask him about his comprehensive knowledge of naval warships sometime.
On the other hand I have found some of his suggestions on the application of shellac to be highly useful.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
:-)
Thank you for the support sir: it is greatly appreciated.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
pzaxtl
I pity you people who grew up with only the internet to learn from.. I not only was around during that period, I bought a house just shortly before interest rates hit their prime. I know for a fact that rates went to 22% plus to people with great credit ratings (back then it was called a rating not a score)
Because I was a returning vietnam vet I got my mortgage at 8% when better qualified people were paying over 22% That is one thing you don't make an error on!
Dear "BS",
Your original posting to which I responded:
Your latest rebuttal:
Only a genuine idiot could make a statement about inflation, then make another concerning interest rates as though they are the same thing. Are you really as stupid as you seem? (Now, before you respond, wipe the drool from your chin -- it'll mess up your keyboard.)
FWIW, you are not much older than I and therefore educated in the same manner. However, I am surprised at the level of illiteracy that you demonstrate. Given that you were educated by a public system, which at the time was the best in the world, I would expect greater fluency on your part. Instead, you pepper your posts with inept grammar and faulty logic.
Are you really as stupid as you seem? I probably am and went to school and college and even passed!I majored in English and still write like a moron! I write like I think.. Not how I was taught in school.. I'm OK with that because it is ME!
pzaxtl,
Do you honestly believe inflation doesn't affect interest rates?
I'll avoid all the inflamatory language you use.. ;-)
Do you honestly believe inflation doesn't affect interest rates?
Absolutely inflation affects interest rates! When inflationary pressures increase, the Federal Reserve lowers interest rates. The relationship is inverse, not correlative.
pzaxtl
OK? So what? Are you saying that America didn't have massive inflation post Vietnam?
OK? So what? Are you saying that America didn't have massive inflation post Vietnam?
Dear BS,
Since you REALLY are that dense I will make this as simple for you as possible. You will not have high inflation AND high interest rates at the same time -- the economy would completely collapse. Interest rates are always lowered in response to rising inflation in order to keep the economy stable.
So, your assertion that inflation was 20%, while, at the same time, mortgage interest was also 20% is completely false. Here is a table of historical data showing actual inflation for the decade 1960-1971. As you can plainly see, at no time was inflation anywhere near 20%. Should you care to verify this for yourself, the following link provides the data:
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx?dsInflation_currentPage=3
YEAR
JAN
FEB
MAR
APR
MAY
JUN
JUL
AUG
SEP
OCT
NOV
DEC
AVE
1971
5.29%
5.00%
4.71%
4.16%
4.40%
4.64%
4.36%
4.62%
4.08%
3.81%
3.28%
3.27%
4.30%
1970
6.18%
6.15%
5.82%
6.06%
6.04%
6.01%
5.98%
5.41%
5.66%
5.63%
5.60%
5.57%
5.84%
1969
4.40%
4.68%
5.25%
5.52%
5.51%
5.48%
5.44%
5.71%
5.70%
5.67%
5.93%
6.20%
5.46%
1968
3.65%
3.95%
3.94%
3.93%
3.92%
4.20%
4.49%
4.48%
4.46%
4.75%
4.73%
4.72%
4.27%
1967
3.46%
2.81%
2.80%
2.48%
2.79%
2.78%
2.77%
2.45%
2.75%
2.43%
2.74%
3.04%
2.78%
1966
1.92%
2.56%
2.56%
2.87%
2.87%
2.53%
2.85%
3.48%
3.48%
3.79%
3.79%
3.46%
3.01%
1965
0.97%
0.97%
1.29%
1.62%
1.62%
1.94%
1.61%
1.94%
1.61%
1.93%
1.60%
1.92%
1.59%
1964
1.64%
1.64%
1.31%
1.31%
1.31%
1.31%
1.30%
0.98%
1.30%
0.97%
1.30%
0.97%
1.28%
1963
1.33%
1.00%
1.33%
0.99%
0.99%
1.32%
1.32%
1.32%
0.99%
1.32%
1.32%
1.64%
1.24%
1962
0.67%
1.01%
1.01%
1.34%
1.34%
1.34%
1.00%
1.34%
1.33%
1.33%
1.33%
1.33%
1.20%
1961
1.71%
1.36%
1.36%
1.02%
1.02%
0.68%
1.35%
1.01%
1.35%
0.67%
0.67%
0.67%
1.07%
1960
1.03%
1.73%
1.73%
1.72%
1.72%
1.72%
1.37%
1.37%
1.02%
1.36%
1.36%
1.36%
1.46%
In the decade following Vietnam the highest rates were:
1974 - 11.03%
1979 - 11.22%
1980 - 13.58%
1981 - 10.35%
then Reaganomics kicked in... and inflation plummeted! As it is, 1974 reveals the affects of the Arab oil embargo, and 1979-1981 reveals the affects of Jimmy Carter (the only first-term lame duck).
In fact, should you care to scan the data, decade by decade, you will find that the highest annual inflation rate over the last century was 1917 which posted a rate of 17.80% Check your facts before making your frequently bogus assertions, otherwise, you make yourself look like an idiot (but, then, we already knew that).
pzaxtl,
The sky is blue, no the sky is clear, no it's blue , it's clear.............................................
So you're showing me some pretty severe inflation post Vietnam. I have said that and agree with you.. if the decimal points and extra numbers make you feel good I'm glad.
If you are saying that republicans fixed it, That's another debate entirely. On the other hand they weren't exclusive in creating it either... The fundamental problem goes all the way back to Kennedy.
When he gave a tax break it had a positive good to the country but it came at a time when we could afford it.. When Johnson wanted to fight a war in Vietnam and on poverty and not pay for either that was the start of it.. Nixon and Ford both pretty much continued the practice.. Carter ran smack into the inflation generated by past presidents (including members of his own party and raised taxes to pay for it..) The resulting slowdown while inflation was still present (stagflation ) hurt the economy.
However the economy doesn't work like an on/off switch. You change policy here and later things get better or worse..
Reagan benefitted both from the tax increase of carter and massively increased government spending. Now we can debate forever if all that spending was relly needed.. I'll point out foolish things like the billions spent on battlships and other such boondoggles and if you're smart you trump me with, the cold war ended..
However you said that Carter was the only one term president or some such thing.. well that's not true because we get to Bush (sr)
(he did a lot to be admired)
And he should have been reelected. I mean his handling of the first gulf war was brillant.. we win a major war and it cost us so little! By some calculations we made money on that war! But he had to pay for Reagans run up of the military or suffer from inflation.. To his credit, he went back on his campaign pledge and increased taxes. If he'd had a second term as he should have/ would have except for Ross Periot! he would have benefitted from the increased economy.
Like you, if you pay your bills on time and don't live on your credit cards you life gets better..
Well That's what Clinton did.. he raised taxes as well and the whole world saw that we were once again a safe place to send their money to..
The stock market went up, the economy strengthened, we balanced the budget and created surpluses..
He could have ensured Gores reelection by lowering them slightly but Al Gore wasn't very loyal to him so screw him!
You know the history since then. Ever wonder what our real debt is now?
I've got a lot of friends who are either still in the military at leadership roles or recently retired. They tell me that the military is pretty well drained. A lot of equipment is way overdue for either retirement or major overhauls but they lack the funds to do it..
I've read all of your posts here and all I seem to remember are two numbers you presented. One number was 30% incorrect in your argument's favor, the other was 50% inflated. At the same time, you tell me that the graph another posted is right wing propaganda, yet your posts seem to be grossly exaggerated to boost your own argument. You apparently refuse to visit recommended sites while refusing to acknowledge that which is spelled out correctly. When people oppose your fabrications with facts, you accuse them of getting hung up on numbers and missing the point. You can neither be taken seriously nor trusted because you present exaggerations and opinion as fact. Let me reiterate this fact for you...you present exaggerations and opinion as fact.
Let me reiterate this fact for you...you present exaggerations and opinion as fact.
Get used to it! He has a gross inability to admit when he is wrong (pity his poor wife, if he has one).
Actually, you have that backward. Central banks raise interest rates in order to 'cool' inflation and lower them in order to stoke the economy, and a growing economy results in higher prices (i.e. inflation).
The economists panic if inflation goes to , or below, zero, because their fancy and largely ineffective models break down and most real people don't want inflation to be more than two or three percent, so the banks set a range and try to manage within that range.
Anyhow, the real calamity facing the US is stagflation, or high inflation and low economic growth. This will probably happen because of the high energy costs, negative savings rate combined with the housing crisis, and reduced defense spending if/when the US ever actually leaves Iraq.
By the way, stagflation DID occur post Vietnam war, complete with astronomical interest rates, etc.. Remember the Carter era? Reduced real defense spending and the energy shocks did it.
Just because it didn't happen the year the US quit doesn't mean the economic impact was not causally related. These thinks take time to build and time to unwind.
A few months ago I splurged and got both the Tucker and the Twinscrew. At the time I felt a bit guilty of spending more than I should. Now as I near completing a benchtop and installing these, then reading about this LV bad news and price increases I feel like an absolute genius.If you build it he will come.
Hate to tell you all this but I bet you the price has gone up already. The prices I paid for the stuff I ordered a couple weeks ago were NOT the prices listed in the most recent catalog, and the catalog they sent me with the stuff had an addendum sheet in it listing a HUGE amount of price increases.
So I would be shocked if you can still get it for the price listed in what ever catalog you may have.
Doug
that sucks.... It still shows $599.00 on the internet so I was hoping that would be the price. I wonder if I put it in my basket it will show the new price when i go to checkout???
Good points Robert, and I would add they(govt) don't think it's your money. It's theirs and you are evil and how dare you keep it. They will say we only tax the rich and people go yea the rich should pay, until they discover what they call rich!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Robert1
You have it backwards. Bill Gates needs the government to provide a military to protect his billions of assests, Bill Gates needs the Government to provide air traffic controllers so that he can fly his personal jet around and do what he needs to do.
Bill Gates needs an infrastruction that works so his company can move it's goods and services around.. He needs police to protect him from bad guys, he needs the economy to do well so companies prosper to allow them to afford his products and services..
Bill Gates needs the Governemnt to ensure that the stock market is as fair as possible so those who invest in his comapnay feel secure enough to do so..
Bill Gates needs structure and security and the government provides that.
The homeless bag lady? She just needs to be left alone.
Bill Gates needs structure and security and the government provides that.
The homeless bag lady? She just needs to be left alone.
Very well put.
robert1
Ok, you forget Gates doesn't operate in a vacumm.. his customers are people like you or I who need all those things and he needs us to have all those things.. Without a strong military to protect us. instead of computers we buy survival stuff or leave to go someplace where the military does protect them.
Yes Gates can hire his own army but it can't protect his customers. If China for example decided to get Bill Gates and we didn't have a Military to protect him,, he's sitting in a Chineese jail someplace. If you bring out whatever gun you have sitting in the house either you wind up in a pool of blood while the Chineese army pry your gun from your cold dead fingers or chicken out and hand it over.. your choice..
Simple things like which side of the raod we drive on and how fast we drive, should green mean go or stop? who cares without a government? Think planes could fly safely without the government? What about the food you eat? Sure it would be safe without government inspectors?
My, what a fascinating woodworking discussion :)
Soon we'll be talking about school vouchers...Government in the states is supposed to protect individuals from the masses, after all we're a republic and not a democracy. What's going on now with absurd spending levels, military over-extension, and the nanny state with ever-expanding entitlements is a disaster. As Jefferson once said:A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.
perizoqui,
Yes this really isn't the place for political discussions.
In a perfect world we wouldn't have a relative handful of people benefit from the bounty that is in this country but the bounty would be spread equally and fairly throughout the whole country.
Politicians would act for the people instead of those with the means to pay for their election. And every person could achieve according to their ability not their connections.
Hi Frenchy,
I agree with your last statement, everybody should achieve according to their ability. But this contradicts your previous statement that bounty should be spread equally. The former is a meritocracy, the latter is marxism. I feel government should protect us from monopolies to enable the former, and protect us from a tyranny of the masses to prevent the latter. In my mind that's real liberty. Freedom from monarchies, corporations, and overweening majorities. That includes the freedom to be immensely rich, and the freedom to be terribly poor. So long as there is always a ladder reaching up (and down).---Pedro
perizoqui,
Access to the bounty should be equal to all.
Let me give you a couple of simple examples..
The finest North American college ( Harvard) has the majority of it's students slots filled by legacy's. That is children of previous graduates. Harvard graduates have access to better jobs and better pay than graduates of other colleges. While there is the occasional merit scholar and even some students from economically poor backgrounds they aren't representative of the population.
Another words Harvard, Yale, and most Ivy league colleges come from the rich and powerful rather than those who's performance would merit their entrance..
The weakness of that approach is that instead of what this country was originally intended as, A meritocracy. It's become a place where access to top posittions comes as a result of your birth rather than your merit.. That produces A president of the country who's lack of reading ability forces him to accept superfical answers to complex questions..
Second If you are brillant and create something of great value to the country you have little chance of gaining access to the money markets for the cash required.. Those money markets are dominated by old school ties and connections..
In the end the creator seldom retains control of his creation and loses it to managers assigned by the money men. Managers who's only real quaifications may have been being a former roomate or friend of those who control the money..
The idea that a majority of students at these three schools are legacies is not at all true. The largest group of students would fall under the category of 'A++' students, not legacy. These schools are constantly trying to convince all potential students that they can attend, regardless of means.
In your words: "The stereotype is differant I realise it, you fat cats would like to show the exception to make your point because it makes you feel superior. The real truth is awkward for you.."
Edited 12/18/2007 2:45 pm ET by MattInPA
MattinPA
The last time I saw numbers for Yale, Princton and Harvard, legacies were well over 50% of the student make up. In addition some students come thru private prep schools which again select their students based on legacy first..
Now add entrants who "buy" their way onto campus because daddy donates a chair or wing etc.. as a result students who achieve entrance due to merit is no longer the majority.. As for student aide packages.. with tuition at $65,000 (last time I looked) or higher few children of working class parents will ever be able to afford those sorts of costs thus their generous scolarship programs do allow students of more moderate means a chance to achieve an education..
Clinton attended on just such a scholarship so you are correct it's not only based on a rich daddy but a rich daddy who attended previously and donates a chair is a prety sure thing.
Again, "The stereotype is differant I realise it, you fat cats would like to show the exception to make your point because it makes you feel superior. The real truth is awkward for you.."
The last estimate I saw for Yale had a freshman class containing 15% legacy. The numbers you suggest have never been nearly attained in recent history, if ever. Assuming you believe that smart people have smart kids, this number may not be high either. (If you don't, please know that the legacies' graduation rate is higher than the overall average at Yale.)
Even children who have "bought" in are still straight A students, I promise.
Your numbers for tuition are 130% of the actual cost of Harvard. I assume that you also realize that less than 40% of students pay that. At Yale, if your family earns less than $60k you pay $0. Harvard just instituted a policy that would make 10% of salary the maximum amount paid for any family that earns less than $180k. This means that if your family earns 4x the national average you will pay a maximum of about $16k. If they only earn 2x that average, they will pay less than 5%. These are all steps made to attract the good students from the lower income family.
"Legacy First" has not come into play there for 100 years, if ever. Grades first, same as yesterday, today and tomorrow.
There are neither athletic nor academic scholarships at any Ivy league school.
As far as donating a chair goes, $5 million may not get you into the top 5.
So my question to you is this: Why would I believe a single thing you said in another post when what you've said here is so factually incorrect?
Frenchy,
All of those things you mentioned are fine. We do all need roads and armed services and air traffic controllers and the like. Nobody is complaining about those things. Heck, we could have all of those things and still cut our taxes in half without even increasing the efficiency of the gov. It is all of the things that you conveniently leave out that Bill Gates (or any other self-sufficient person) doesn't need, that the bag lady (who should just be left alone) get, and others who live at least partially off the sweat of their fellow mans brow get, that are costing the majority of the federal budget. Take a look at the pie chart attached below.
Would you like to tell me that we really need to spend the majority of the federal budget on never ending social programs? If you really think that there are that many people who need that much help wouldn't it be more ethical for all of the people who agree with you to help them personally, instead of forcing others to do it, possibly against their will?
Rob
It's stupid to get involved in a political discussion here but your chart is misleading. Social Security/Medicare social programs but are financed differently. These are paid for by an entirely different tax than the income tax and Social Security taxes have generated a surplus since their inception. That surplus has been used to finance other items in your pie chart which actually reduced the tax increases we'd have otherwise have faced. The huge Social Security tax increases under Regan were supposed to avert and pay for the Social Security we face today. Having gone through these years self-employed, paying both the employer's and employee's share of this tax, I view the whole thing as a promise by the Government and expect the Government to keep its end of the bargain. I really don't give a damn that the Government squandered the money they were supposed to manage.Back to the original post in this thread. I read that article and followed Robin Lee's comments about it on various forums. I was amused when Mr. Lee complained it was supposed an article about Christmas. I thought it was -- a modern version of Charles Dickens' classic. Only in this one Bob Cratchet works in Ottawa, is facing his job being outsourced overseas and Tiny Tim still needs medical care.
Hi Larry,
That's a nice take about the Christmas Carol. Maybe you're right. There's a wonderful article I was reading last night about how the folks at Disston used to take care of their employees:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS/saws/Disston/01BBus/employees/howWeHold/howWeHold1.asp
Of course I only have 15 employees working in my lab, and the university environment is inherently sheltered, but I see it as an obligation to keep my people funded and cared for. My end of the deal so to speak. My objection is with government appropriating my funds to do this for me, and then giving the money to special interest groups with powerful lobbies instead. I agree that the government has been taking your money for social security for years, and they owe you. The problem is that they can't pay you. The government makes no products, and adds no value. The government doesn't have money. Only the taxpayers do. The social security promise isn't about hitting the government up for what they owe you, it's hitting tomorrow's taxpayers up for what the politicians elected in your lifetime squandered for you. Robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak.
"...My objection is with government appropriating my funds to do this for me, and then giving the money to special interest groups with powerful lobbies instead. I agree that the government has been taking your money for social security for years, and they owe you. The problem is that they can't pay you. The government makes no products, and adds no value. The government doesn't have money. Only the taxpayers do."
Oh, I understand what you're saying. Still, I'm more than tired of being treated like a parasite for expecting to receive what I've paid for and been promised. During the time I've been paying into Social Security the Government has found the money to make good one the $400 to $500 billion plundered from the Savings and Loans, allow who knows how billions to be stolen from the Iraq reconstruction money, gave corporate officers legal license to steal people's retirement money, and is now preparing to make sure no one from the "investor class" looses any money in the bogus mortgage commodity market they unleashed on the public. Have you ever looked into the convictions, fine payment rate, or restitution rate of the white-collar criminals involved in these scams? Why don't we hear the kind of knee-jerk bitching about these criminals we hear about those of us who expect our investment in Social Security to bear a little fruit? Making good on Social Security would be cheap compared to that which has been openly stolen from the public. I think people need to get some perspective and stop the knee-jerk reactions to those they only think are getting something for nothing.
I don't care who is taking my money under the threat of loss of life or freedom, or what the claimed reason is. It is all the same in the end.
Your comparison of Mr. Lee to Scrooge is misinformed and appalling.
Rob
RobA.
There are 300 million people in this country.. all tax payers and they each want their share of the pie.
I get a kick out of what you guys lump into social programs in order to skew facts. Bottom line some mega wealthy people take advantage of those same social programs you are complaining about.. Those bag ladies you worry so much about aren't even a tiny sliver of a line on that pie chart..
There are times when Government programs are the most efficent, secure, cheapest way to deal with problems we all share.
For example medical costs..
America spends over 25% of the cost of medical care on administration of paperwork required because of the complex web of private insurance, government programs, HMO's, and private payers.
Most other civilized countries spend less than 5%. There is even a governemnt program out there which runs at 2% administration costs..
Frenchy,
I said...
"...that the bag lady (who should just be left alone) get, and others who live at least partially off the sweat of their fellow mans brow get, that are costing the majority of the federal budget."
You are the one who brought up bag ladies, not me. I don't approve of any redistribution of wealth. No matter who it goes to. I also don't want a share of anyone's pie. I would just like to keep the majority of the one I earned. Don't knock down straw men and claim to have defeated my point.
You have boasted before that you hardly pay any taxes. Which makes it both obvious why you didn't answer this question, and more important that you do answer it. This is what the debate boils down to IMO.
" If you really think that there are that many people who need that much help wouldn't it be more ethical for all of the people who agree with you to help them personally, instead of forcing others to do it, possibly against their will?"
Rob
Rob A
to answer your question plain and simple.
No! It's been tried before and doesn't work.. You would actually have to read American history to understand why.
That bag lady you complain about and others who get a small stipend to survive by cost the average tax payer a few dollars.. Less than $5.00(a decade ago I knew the eact amount but I'm allowing a lot for inflation)..
That is the absolute cheapest way to handle the problem of poor.
The alternative, simply cutting off welfare completely would cost you well in excess of $1000 more per year in added taxes.
That's right.. if we totally eliminate welfare your taxes go up dramatically..
Think about it and I won't have to explain things to you, or you can do some research and find out why..
What does any of that have to do with the question of which is more ethical, forcing others to contribute to charity, or spending your own time and money to help the downtrodden?
Rob
Rob A.
I answered you.. You simply don't like the answer because it doesn't fit your overly simple understanding of how things work..
I assume it would be news to Mr. Lee that currency fluctuation risk is very hedgeable. Companies large and small do it all the time. One will always pay a price in business for not being well-informed, no matter how "nice" you are or how many people think you are the Second Coming.
Edited 12/17/2007 10:02 am ET by UrbaneLegend
Ha ha ha!
I asked you which was more ethical. You avoided the subject of ethics entirely and that makes me to simple to understand your answer.
Rob
Edited 12/17/2007 4:45 pm ET by Rob A.
Rob A.
You phrased that as a loaded question, sort of when did you stop beating your wife..
I answered you as if it weren't and you don't like that answer because it doesn't fall neatly into your silly little scheme.
It was only loaded if you don't like what your answer is. Either it is ethical or it isn't. If you don't think it is maybe you should take that under further consideration. It's not a trick.
Rob
It's theft at the point of a gun, plain and simple. It is not charity if it is involuntarily taken from others.
Frenchy is not overly concerned with the morality of the matter, he see's it as an expedient way to keep the leeches out of sight.
If you have a crop of kids and no means of feeding them and no friends who care enough about you to give you a hand up and must resort to getting sustenance by force perhaps nature is trying to tell you something. Such as drop out of the gene pool.
People who cannot survive without forcibly taking the fruits of others labor should drop dead.
I'm assuming you and I have corresponded enough on knots Rob, that you know this rant is not directed toward you, and is merely my view on the matter. I think we are of one mind on the matter of the morality but I don't want you painted with the brush of horror my admittedly extreme views may attract.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
"People who cannot survive without forcibly taking the fruits of others labor should drop dead."Does that include the sick and infirm? How about quadriplegics? Down syndrome? Orphans? Veterans with traumatic brain injury?Are you sure you meant what you said?
Yes, if they cannot survive without taking the resources of others at the point of a gun which is what governmeny welfare boils down too.
Would you let such a person starve while you had something to give? Neither would I. Nor would I want to survive if I had to resort to such measures.
People have done an adequate job of taking care of the truly needy all through history without the fruits of their labor being taken by force.
Individual human compassion, churches and other organizations have done it for centuries.
I object to being forced to support others at the point of a gun, having no say in the matter. Perhaps I might wish to support some needy people with whom the corporacracy/govmt. has a difference of opinion with. Perhaps I wish to choose who gets whatever extra I have to offer. Perhaps I wish to give to the Palestinians rather than the Jews. No one has a right to steal from me by force to support someone else.
You want a donation to help someone, come make your case. I have compassion. You want to take what is mine without my having any say in where it's going and support a layer of government parasites with health benefits and pensions I will never be able to enjoy, you will endure my continuing contempt and all my efforts to undermine your efforts.
Feel free to e-mail me if you know someone needing help, explain things to your best ability and if I agree and am able I will help anyway I can. I will warn you that I already help others to the point where I am doing without, but you never know, I may find something else I can do without for the right person.
This is a simplistic answer to your question and I would be happy to elaborate. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are a victim of government schooling and indoctrination and have not been exposed to the thoughts of our founding fathers and others throughout history that valued liberty.
Bottom line is robbing other working folk in order to perform what you perceive to be charity is immoral. Wear sackcloth and ashes eat bugs and send all your earnings to those who you deem needy and you will have my respect, rob me at point of the government gun to do the same and I will despise you regardless of how noble you may see yourself, for you are not noble; only a thief.
Looking forward to further conversations with you.
Don
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Like you, I enjoy P.J. O'Rourke's writing. I happen to vote libertarian, and sponsored the Cato Institute for years. I believe in small government, but not in no government. Our founding fathers felt the same way. If you believe private efforts have been enough in the past to care for our helpless, then you are a poor student of history.It is one thing to enable and reward a man who takes responsibility for his own welfare and that of his family, it is another to brush aside those who can't. Orphans have, by definition, no family. No one to care for them. Many do not receive private care. Do we let these children die?The old and infirm receive oftentimes inadequate care. Is this their problem? Should we leave them to die?Veterans often receive substandard care. You know of one case, and I've seen many more. The contract you alluded to does not exist. They get what they've been promised, and often that's not enough. Do we let those that served our nation in its time of need die?With all due respect, your reply was worse than your original posting, you have no heart. You should be ashamed of yourself for writing this garbage.
I don't believe you understood my post.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Maybe not, though it seemed pretty emphatic. I think your posts together with frenchy's are surprisingly polarized. I feel bewildered reading his, until I read yours and can't make up my mind which is loonier. Surely there must be a middle ground. Somewhere between eat the rich and damn the orphans?Maybe it's the medium. This thread ran to nasty a while ago. Maybe if we were all sitting around the local pub with a pint of something lovely, this conversation would be different.I'm sorry if I was condescending in my earlier post.I'll tell you what: none of this thread is as painful as trying to saw dovetails with a bowsaw. I've been following Guidice's book and applying it to Cosman's DVDs while I await for my Wenzloff DT saw from Lee Valley, and it doesn't work. I can do straight lines, but show me how to cut a smooth dovetail with a 28" putsch saw like master Frid, and I'll get rid of those pesky orphans and veterans for you:)That's my olive branch.
Best regards,
---Pedro
perizoqui
I just read your post to dgreen and I think we've come a long way from my intial statement that it's foolish for a business man to post his political viewpoint on a business statement..
The rest of the conversation deteriorated as extremes were used to prove points..
Frency, sorry if I was the one who sent this conversation off in this direction. Seems to have attracted some really offensive wingnuts that I have filtered out. I suggest you do the same. Perhaps we could move back to talking about Lee Valley and woodworking. Andy
Carya,
I suspect that it's pretty hopeless for this post anyway..
I'm not really upset either.. normally around here something worth while is said in the first few posts and then it starts to wander a bit anyway..
I think that's the beauty of the internet.. quick access to info and a lot of discussions about other things. It's both social and informative.. it's up to the reader to decide what to accept..
Pedro;
Unfortunately one look at my attempts at hand cut dovetails would be all it would take to convince you I would be of no help to you!
I will stick to my omnijig for the time being. I've not tried it with a bowsaw but my attempts with a Japanese saw left much to be desired!
Thanks for the olive branch and good luck with your dovetails.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
I realize we're in danger of discussing woodworking here, but I wonder about the zen of the whole dovetail process. I've always loved these joints, and one of the first things I did last year when I bought a house for my family and set up my woodshop (first one I've had since High School) is buy a Leigh D1600 jig to go with my porter-cable router. Blew me away. Loved it. But somehow now that I've cranked out a few pieces it feels mechanical. The thrill is gone.I recently made a couple trays for my wife, the dovetails are perfect as always with that wonderful jig, and the rest is rounded and shaped by hand. I feel absurdly proud of the part I did by hand, even though it's lumpy and imperfect and nowhere near as good as the dovetails. So I'm going all hand-tools. Maybe it's sour grapes because I can't afford or fit a table saw, band saw, planer, jointer, router table, and drill press into my very small shop. Maybe it's because I spend all day with high-tech machines.The only time I've regretted that choice is when trying to surface with a jointer, and trying to cut fine joints with a bow saw. So I've got a scrub plane and a DT saw on order and we'll see what happens. Next year I'll either develop a snooty superiority as I whittle entire pieces of furniture from a single tree with my teeth by candle light, or I'll make the boys share a room so I can make room for that table saw :)Okay, I'm rambling. Time to go use bad equipment while I wait for the good. Merry Christmas.
I think many times the handmade stuff does have more character, I can only afford that luxury when making things for myself or friends. For better or worse I'm a production shop and my customers want uniformity and consistency over character.
I would think a good dovetail saw would be much easier to get good results with than a bowsaw.
Remember to save lots of ashes and tallow for those candles! :)
Merry Christmas to you and yours too.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Lataxe is sending me gristle from his liposuction for me to make both soap and candles.Didn't know you were a pro. Must be a whole different world. I'm up for sabatical in a few years and I'm wondering if I should try to get an apprenticeship in a shop for little or no money. I want to try a different career for a year before I return to mine (which I love). They tell me I only get one chance at this life and I can't just do one thing. It's between that or a year pretending to write a book from a town somewhere in France.
Best,
---Pedro
What sort of DT saw did you choose?
I wanted one of Mike Wenzloff's saws given what I've read about him and them, but the lead time was too much for my impatient soul. I'm already going nuts waiting for my smoother from Philip. He was kind enough to let me purchase on layaway, and I can't wait for that January paycheck to arrive so I can make the final payment and get that miraculous blend of form and function into my undeserving hands.Anyway, back to the dovetail saw, I saw on Lee Valley's website (which I love) that they're selling Mike's saws and with a much shorter lead time. So I ordered one up from them and it's supposed to ship the day after tomorrow. Can't wait.Meanwhile I'm trying to cut dovetails with a bow saw because I figure if one man can do it, anyone can. Apparently not. My dovetails look like a rorschach test.
I ask because I have a few DT saws of various kinds and makes, and have tried out several others that friends or relatives have. A lot of it is what you get used to using no doubt. I personally like the rip dozuki and new DT saw offered by Tools for Woodworking. My first saw was LNs and it is still great too.
I've tried the LV version of the Wenzloff, but only a little. I have a feeling it differs rather significantly from the others they offer (Keaton <sp?> Chest version etc.). The one thing I remember thinking was that the blade is kind of thick in the kerf, but that's prbably because I'm used to the dozuki as my tried and true go to DT saw these days.
That's an interesting point. Hadn't thought of it.
Let me explore.
P,
You will like both the Marcou and the Wenzloff as they are Real and work proper, unlike some tools you can pur-chase.
Of course, hand toolin' is a different thang from guiding the woodrat or biscuit jointer, skillful though that is. You find that you have to learn sharpy; and also make physical effort in a well-controlled fashion, as you are the motor now.
I did near 500 DTs with the Wenzloff before my physical skill matched the perfection of the saw. The saw was a revelation after those hardpoint things, that cut super-aggresive but tend to wander off line and spelch (to use a current term). The Wenzloff starts and tracks perfectly. You just have to learn how to cut to them fine lines (and to make the fine lines to start with).
Hand tooling is satisfying to accomplish and does provide a definite look to the furniture - a look it is not easy to get with machine tools. However, I would never give up the machines, as they provide precision where it matters - flat planks, square corners and internal joints that fit like a chicken's top lip.
I read a bit of Art Carpenter, who had what I thought was a good approach to making bespoke furniture. Do the hard, tedious work with machines until the piece is ready to apply the artistry to with the hand tools.
But I am rambling now.
Lataxe
I think the sharpening's down, I've been applying Lee's excellent book and video to my planes and chisels for the past many moons and I can reliably pass the shave hair and other sharpness tests I've heard of. The shavings from the plane are gossamer thin, but the jointer's too long for smoothing and the tearout never goes away entirely even with a 62 degree angle blade (50 degree bevel plus 12 degree bed).I've used my sworn promise (to myself) to save money on power tools, to justify spending money on the finest hand tools (Marcou, Wenzloff, Jeske, Iles, etc...). Still much cheaper in the long run, and with the exception of a few frustrating moments (surfacing with a jointer), I've spent the past year being glad of my choice. Plus conversing via email with Philip is an experience I can't imagine having with Delta or Saw Stop. I love the personal element.Getting back to your point, I may get tired of surfacing after a couple hundred board feet. But Hack claims in his book that the old timers could do 300 feet per day. I figure that's as much wood as I'll use in a year, so it can't be that bad once I get the knack of it. We'll see how long the good intentions last.Meanwhile I'll try and hand-make those joints as tight as this fellow's upper lip:
Mike,
I'm not sure if this will get to you, but if it does, could you tell me a bit more about the difference between your dovetail saw via LV, and direct? I'd hate to buy the wrong one.
Best regards,
---Pedro
According to LV the Wenzloff is 0.026, compared with 0.014 for their riptooth Dozuki. I picked one up today (no lead time!) so haven't had a chance to use it yet. I must say I'd settle for a slightly "thicker" kerf in return for less effort. I use nothing but Japanese saws and like them, but the dovetail saw I've been using (one of the older LV Dozukis) gives me too much of a workout. It cuts thin and straight, but takes a long time. Trying to hold it with the forefinger as a guide is positively painful, and the best way to hold it is with both hands -- which may be what the japanese do? Doesn't feel right somehow.
I asked the guy in the store if sales were brisk, and he said no, it's a specialty item -- whatever that means. There's no indication on the packaging, incidentally, that this is an item made specifically for LV. It's beautifully made.
Jim
Did you pick up a Wenzloff or a Dozuki? I wasn't sure from your email which you picked up, which is a specialty item, which is not specifically made for LV, and which is beautifully made? Just curious, thanks!
Picked up the Wenzloff, gave up on dozukis. If it works as well as it looks, I'll be a happy camper. I got into the habit of sending terse messages back in the day when academic discussion groups arrived in your mailbox, and space was limited. I'll need to try harder!
Jim
Hmmm. I've been waiting two weeks for mine. How did you pick one up with no lead time?Anyway, enjoy it when it arrives. I'll do the same. It's my Christmas present, so I'm hoping it gets here before Christmas so I can use cut hundreds of dovetails before going back to work.
One of the few advantages of being a Canadian buying tools is that you're likely to have a Lee Valley store nearby -- 20 minutes in my case. There's even an Express window where you can order ahead and pick up your order without waiting. The downside is that you get a major case of tool envy every time you go in. It's a Christmas present for me too, but my wife's disabled, so I get to pick it up. Boy, that's 3 bona fide sentences in a row! Enjoy the Wenz.
Jim
"One of the few advantages of being a Canadian..."Well, there had to be at least one. :)Don't mind me, I'm just jealous.
Actually I can think of many more advantages, but then I would start a *real* flame war ...
Actually I can think of many more advantages, but then I would start a *real* flame war ...Yeah Canadians get more Moose Milk than us :-). J/K, one of my best friends is Canadian, I know several others, great lot of guys. Also I find that Canada breeds very attractive women :-). On a side note relating back to DT saws, I am in the looksee mode myself for getting one. I do have a Dosuki "Z" that is supposed to be a decent crosscut and rip saw (according to FWW article) but I would like to also get a dedicated DT saw. I don't plan on making a ton of DT's but would like to embark on trying my hand at it. I don't mind paying a bit for a good saw either but I also don't want to put out too much at first just in case I find it really isn't my calling to do DT's and I could apply money saved towards another tool I could use. Doe's anyone have experience in the lower priced (starter you might say) DT saws?B.Kidd
I was always partial to Mooshead beer, and want to do a fly in fishing trip to canada once before I die!
This from an old Virginia Boy!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
This dozuki cuts fast as it is filed rip. FWW recommedned it too!
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS340&Category_Code=TSJ
Also, an interesting post from Chris Shwarz regarding tapering in depth of DT saws:
http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Tapered+Sawblades+Thats+Not+A+Defect+Its+A+Feature.aspx
I agree the Wenzloff is beautifully made. And it saws well. All I was saying was that after using a japanese saw, somehow the wider kerf feels weird or like more effort to remove nearly double the wood from the kerf. I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers, so to speak.
Samson,
I'm sure that any of your options would allow me to do a sight better than the 28" bow saw. I've attached a few pics so you can see my appalling lack of ability. Apparently I am no Frid. My Wenz ships tomorrow (unless there's another delay), and I really can't wait to see what that bad boy can do.I received a marking knife from Dave Jeske today, and not only is it beautiful, it made a noticeable improvement in the dovetails. Gives you an idea of how horrid they were before. Is it possible that a marking knife could make this much of a difference in the tightness of my joints? I think it may.Merry Christmas,
---Pedro
Tage Frid re-sharpened a crosscut profile bowsaw blade to a rip profile. The result is a high(er) tooth per inch rip saw than is commonly available for a bowsaw. This accounts for his success in sawing dovetails with a bowsaw.
Hmmm. Didn't know that. I'm using a 5 TPI blade sharpened for ripping as per Guidice's recommendation. Frid's article in FWW on sawing by hand recommends a 6 TPI configuration, but that's rip as well. Would going from 5 to 6 TPIs make that much difference? The dovetail saw has 14 TPI, and that's low compared to most others.
P,
That Wenzloff will improve your DT cuts no end, as will the Dave Jeske knife in showing you where to cut. Them bowsaw thangs are for cutting logs into pieces, as that joker Fried Rage probably knew.
But now I am going to turn critic and suggest a camera with a close-up facility, so we can see that bowsaw tear-out even more clearly and wonder just how great a prankster the Rage fellah was. (He also mentioned belting DT-ends with a hammer to splay out the wood fibres, should a bowsawn DT have a gap ar 23). :-).
Lataxe, suggesting: it takes about 300 handsawn DTs to git reasonabe and 500 to git good. (Of course, I am a clumsy fool and you may be balletic, in which case: 100 and 150, at a guess).
Edited 12/20/2007 6:29 pm ET by Lataxe
Alas, I do not own a camera, just an iPhone. I'm too poor, having spent all my money on fine tools. When my children get cold, I will recommend they surface some boards with shiny new planes. When the wife complains that we have no television, I will invite her to gaze at Marcou's artistry.
P,
Those mobile phone things scare me, as they allow any wallah to get ahold of ye when they feel like it.
Also, their cameras are meant only for taking photos of drunken co-workers groping the lapdancer (an activity not to my liking) which requires the photos be blurred a bit (to hide the identity of the guilty drunkards) and also be canted over to one side, to counteract the drunken list. This is my theory and I'm sticking to it, despite knowing nothing at all about telephonic instruments of the modern kind.
Perhaps we should persuade Mr Marcou to install a webcam in the front of his planes? It would be wireless, so that we may gloat by sending out moving pictures of perfect shavings curling off perfect cabinets, to all woodworkers of our acquaintance who possess mere LVs, LNs or Holteys.
It might be more difficult to get the webcam into the Wenzloff saw without unbalancing it....
As to bowsaws, I admit to wanting to try one. I have a plan somewhere and a link or two to them places that sell the blades and other bits. There was a nice one in FWW a while back, made by a reader and having the shape of two swans. One could learn carving whilst making such a bowsaw.....
Lataxe
PS You must not let the children handle your tools, them with their grubby little paws from making mud pies and blowing their noses on their sleeves. Of course, you might help their warming by getting them to vigorously polish the plane-brass after their scrubbing (of both kinds).
PPS You are also wise to dispense with the One-eyed Monster; it rots the brain with gan-meme and then you die from inertia or blood-pooling in the glutemii. Ladywives should be given other duties to discharge, rather than being allowed to relax in front of the tele. (Another theory I'm sticking to, for as long as I can get away with it).
It's a sad day. Lee Valley originally promised a shipment of the Wenz DT saw on the 12th, then the 17th, then the 21st. Today they told me middle of January. Not much of a Christmas present then is it. Kind of messes up my plans to spend the vacation learning how to handcut dovetails.So I started looking around and found that Joel at tools for working wood has a new dovetail saw that seems quite lovely. So I'm in the process of begging him to overnight it to me tomorrow so I can have it before Christmas.Wish me luck.
That's a great saw. I built the kit version.
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/561657844JNItdf
It's a happy day. Despite all my begging I couldn't convince Joel to cancel Christmas and overnight me the Gramercy saw. How unreasonable :) Anyway, I asked Chris Schwartz for advice and he sent me a wonderfully detailed email on dovetail saws, (he has the Wenz, the Gramercy, and the LN) and based on this I popped down to Woodcraft and picked up the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw. Brought it home, marked out some lines and began to cut when the strangest thing happened: the clouds parted and the sun shone directly onto my workpiece, the line I cut was perfectly straight, and the angels sang out as one! Minimal kerf, no wandering. I made 15 and they're all perfect. What an amazing tool. Tonight I practice more and tomorrow I'll begin cutting dovetails in earnest. I've promised to make a gift-box for my wife for her birthday (New Years Day) and it will have an obscene amount of dovetails. Life is good.Merry Christmas you crazy englishman!
P,
Now you be 'ooked and soon your shed will be like that of Jeff Heath or Samson (to name but two addicts of Needful Tools).
I am sure you will have realised by now that those perfect DT kerfs require similarly perfect chisel-cuts to complete them. As the whole world knows, only Dave Jeske's Blue Sprucers are up to complementing those kerfs. Also, them chisels shine and glint so, when that ray of approving sunshine beams down.
Then there are the marking gauges and knives, the mortise chisels, the Special Plane by Philip (the one with tote/knob encrusted by African diamonds, to improve grip and swoosh-power transfer).
Have you a large bank balance? If not, remember that even quite small children can be induced to work, should there be chimneys in need of cleaning or a nearby satanic mill.
Lataxe, who will do anything for tool-money now (due for rehab).
Funny thing, D, for all my shed feathering (to twist a metaphor), I don't (yet) own any Blue Pruce chisels of Marcou planes. Now the chap who owned multiples of these exquisite tools, he would really be someone to emulate.
I'm cutting some carcase side dovetails the past few days. I pulled out all my DT options to play as I thouhgt with so many cuts to make I could compare and contrast. I have to say, all the saws are better than me! Each does a fine job, and would be up to the task.
I've got my eye on Dave Jeske's chisels, but where to start? A nice paring chisel, or a pair of skew chisels, or that new fishtail chisel? So far I'm getting by with my Narex chisels nicely, so I think handplanes and saws will be the focus. I'd like a LN 140 skew and beading tool, and a LV plow and router plane. I'd like a tennon saw, and a first rate blade for my bow saw. I've asked Mr Wenzloff about the saws and we'll see what he has to say. After all this is done, I'm thinking one of Ray Iles' 3/8" mortise chisels, and then I'll be ready to tackle the question of which Blue Spruce chisel to get first.We shall see how much of the above list Mr Claus brings down my chimney tomorrow night. Then there's the three magic kings. And finally I think I'll take your suggestion on child labor. It's high time the three year old began to help with the family finances. Elsewise he may start to think that Christmas is about love and family rather than his father's rampantly materialistic needs.
---Pedro
p.s. If you have work for the boy, or the younger 10 month old model, I'm sure I can send him as an apprentice in exchange for some of those Marcou, Wenzloff, and Jeske tools you're hoarding.
Edited 12/23/2007 1:52 pm ET by perizoqui
I've got my eye on Dave Jeske's chisels, but where to start? A nice paring chisel, or a pair of skew chisels, or that new fishtail chisel?
Pedro
Dave's chisels are beautiful art/tools. One of these days I will write a review of them. Not that they need one. Perhaps just to wax lyrical. :)
I have the full set plus of the dovetail chisels, and they all get used. The "plus" is a custom 3/4" that Dave made for me. It's a one-off as far as I know, but I have told him that he should include it in the regular line up. If I was just to buy one or two, I'd get a 1/8" and a 1/4" first, then add as you go along.
View Image
The skews are nice but not necessary. Make your own ... unless you of course want a nice "set" (as I did ... well it was my birthday at the time and I had been good all year long!). I had Dave grind out a couple of 1/4" chisels at 20 degrees (which is not what he was offering at the time). Interestingly, shortly after I did, I discovered that LN were offering the same configuration.
The other chisel I discussed with Dave was a fishtail. Again, this is one you can easily make for yourself. I had made one out of an old chisel that I re-ground. I see that Dave now offers one. It is prettier than mine.
Here are a bunch of "accessories" for preparing (rather than chopping or paring) dovetails. With the exception of the Blue Spruce skews, these are ones I have made. Left to right ... 3/8" Berg skews, homebrew fishtail, BS skews, Chisel Knife.
View Image
The Chisel Knife is an idea I got watching a video of Tage Fride deepening the sides of half-blind pins by hammering in a piece of bandsaw blade. So I build a parallel blade the width of a saw kerf that could be hammered like a chisel.
I'd like a LN 140 skew and beading tool, and a LV plow and router plane.
Well, as far as I know you have the LV router plane. Great tool. I have the Stanley #66 beader and had added the LN fences when I first got it (fenceless off eBay). Recently I built a custom (longer) fence for the #66, and this has been a big success. Far better then the short Stanley/LN fences.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/No66Beader/No66Beader1.asp
The LN Skew is a specialist block plane. I would not buy one before a standard LA block plane. Several months ago I won a #140 on eBay that had decidedly seen better days. Thomas Lie-Nielsen completed a significant part of the restoration. The end cost certainly did not save me money over a new one. However, this was the first model made and sold by LN (in 1985), and was a little different to to current model in size. LN also upgraded it (better blade - a W1 steel - and a nicker). Now I have a stunning plane that does a superb job on tenon faces and other cross grain edges ..
View Image
I've asked Mr Wenzloff about the saws and we'll see what he has to say
I am expecting my first saw from Mike to arrive for my birthday in a weeks time. This will be a half back saw with a Tasmanian Blackwood tote (my favourite wood). I have a sort-of saw from Mike in the form of a dovetail saw that he sharpened for me. Now this will interest you greatly because the saw he sharpened was a brand new Independent Tools (IT) saw, upon which the Lie Nielsen (LN) is based (they bought the company). I also have the LN, so I wrote a short review of the two saws, comparing one with the other. This put Mike's sharpening skills firmly in the spotlight. I was delighted - but not surprised - when the Wenzloff-sharpened IT was preferred over the LN-sharpened LN.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/2saws/fatherSon.asp
So are you still going to get a Wenzloff dovetail saw?
That reading should keep you out of trouble for a while, or put you to sleep more quickly at night..
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
Thanks for your detailed post. Since my original post, only a week and a half has passed, but a man can do a great deal of damage in a that time if a Christmas bonus happens to arrive :)So it was very interesting reading your thoughts in light of the purchases I made with my bonus, and comparing your impressions with my own. I ended up requesting a pair of skew chisels (for half-blind sockets on an upcoming project), and a 1/8" chisel (for smaller pin sockets and hounds teeth). I have not received them yet, but I can't wait. If the tools are as wonderful as I expect them to be, I'll probably add from there over time as finances and needs dictate. I have a full set of Narex chisels down to 1/4", and I imagine I'll be told these aren't even in the same class. Perhaps so, but after completely remaking the primary and secondary bevel on all of them, they work wonderfully. So replacing these is of a lower priority than acquiring tools I don't have. I may change my tune of course, once I start using the BS chisels and see the difference...As for the skew block, I bought it and love it. I mean really love it. I use the heck out of it for everything from endgrain, to squaring small boards, to raising panels. I'd like a left-handed version so I can avoid tearout, and I'm seriously contemplating making that my next purchase. I've received recommendations to get a rabbet block plane, and a regular block plane. What I don't know is what it is that these can do that a pair of 140 skew planes cannot? Since I already have one of the pair of skews cost is not a factor. Could you help me with this question?As for the saw, I've really enjoyed the LN dovetail saw. I added the carcass saw after getting the bonus, and that's a wonderful tool as well. These are my first really good saws and so I have nothing to compare them to. That said, I have not had any difficulty starting the dovetail saw. Maybe mine is particularly lovely, or maybe they've improved their design since some others got theirs. I follow Cosman's instructions: pinch the board with thumb and index, position the blade splitting the line on the waste side, press the blade against my fingers, pick up most of the weight of the saw, and push to begin the cut. Good stuff, works every time. In the spirit of building my tool collection before upgrading what I already have, I'd love to have one of Mike's saws in a flavor I don't have from LN. A tennon saw would be nice, but I'd really love a first rate bow saw. Not a coping-type saw like gramercy makes but a Tage Frid type 28" bow saw. I'm eagerly awaiting his reply to an email of mine from a little while back.I have to say that I never bought tools from LN before this holiday season, feeling they were overpriced. Given a number of side-by-side comparisons I'd read, I felt they were always the most expensive option, but rarely the best. I've come 180 degrees on that assessment. Every tool I've received from them works beautifully and is beautiful. LV tools I have are every bit as good, but there's no comparison on looks. I also prefer the handle on my LN plane to my LV. Both aesthetically and for comfort. All in all, my favorite tools right now are my LV jointer which I continue to love and overuse, my LN skew, and my LN saws. I can't wait for my Marcou to arrive, I imagine after that I'll probably use the jointer mostly for... jointing :) Right now I also use it for flattening (after the scrub), end grain (on a shooting board), and smoothing (with a 50 degree blade). If I could do it again I might have gotten a Jack first to do everything I currently do with the jointer. I also very much like the LV router plane, and think I'll try it for some inlay in an upcoming project.Now I've gone on far too long.
Best regards,
---Pedro
The bowsaw Frid used for dovetailing was no less than 9 tpi and I think it was probably 12 TPI or so. Re-read Guidice - he shows a short Danish bowsaw for joinery cuts in his book - at least double the TPI of the 5 pt. rip saw also shown.
You need Frid's book - in it he discusses re-filing a crosscut blade to a rip configuration (there are no 5 TPI crosscut blades for bowsaws that I am aware of) for general use and for joinery cuts. It is nice to have a 5pt blade around for dedicated ripping when processing rough stock. If you have Frid's video on dovetailing you can also clearly see that he's using a much higher TPI blade than a 5.
Edited 12/21/2007 7:07 am ET by UrbaneLegend
I also recall an article where Tages blade itself tapers down near the handle to allow turning the corner whilst cutting out the waste? Or was that someone elses idea?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's Frank Klausz.
Ah, merci.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That was not Tage Frid, it was Frank Klausz.
Napie,
Thanks, you're right. I should have researched further B4 posting. Would you happen to know where one can purchase said type od blade?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
As a secondary matter, mostly because I missed it in your post, veterans we made a contract with whch we have mostly farked them on. The deserve everything they were contractually promised. My roomate is a 30 year retired masterchief from the navy, due to our esteemed governments theft and inflation of our fiat money his retirement is $900 a month. He retired in 1981. I'll let you figure out how good his life is compared to the government parasites. Oh and by the way he was promised lifetime health care, what a freaking joke, that could be a whole nother thread. I pay his rent and food and try to get him to his many "appointments" with th VA. Appointments that are very costly for him to miss and long and far between but which they have no problem cancelling after his multi hour trip.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
And did I mention the medications he requires fter lo all these many years of service to you and I? High blood pressure, tinnitus, etc.? Did I mention he was a non drinker and ate in the chow hall? Did I mention how much horsemeat I ate in the navy? Did I mention the lack of vegetables? Did I mention all the soft drinks the navy got a kickback on?------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
dgreen,
Drop out of the gene pool? is that code for kill yourself? You live in the wrong country my friend.. China has such draconian birth control measures Not America. But maybe you'd prefer to live where freedom isn't a guaranteed right.
If you knew anything about welfare you'd know that the vast majority of welfare recipants are single white young women with children who have been abandoned by the father of their children.. IN addition the average welfare recipant gets welfare for less than 14 months.
The stereotype is differant I realise it, you fat cats would like to show the exception to make your point because it makes you feel superior. The real truth is awkward for you..
Welfare exists because it's the cheapest way to deal with the problem.. Maybe you'd like to abandon welfare all together? Right now assuming an average income welfare costs you $5.00 in taxes.. eliminate welfare and expect it to cost you $1000 or more.. Would you like to do the research to find out why?
If you have a crop of kids and no means of feeding them and no friends who care enough about you to give you a hand up and must resort to getting sustenance by force perhaps nature is trying to tell you something. Such as drop out of the gene pool.
People who cannot survive without forcibly taking the fruits of others labor should drop dead.
And a very Merry Christmas to you as well.
Don,
You suggest: "People who cannot survive without forcibly taking the fruits of others labor should drop dead".
A fine sentiment and wouldn't it be a relief if all them robbers were to melt away to leave only us hardworking folk? One fears the rascals will not co-operate with our scheme and will, in fact, proliferate like mice in the wheat store. It's in their nature you know (I speak of humans, not the superhuman worthy folk like you and me).
We could start with those naughty men who enclosed all the land in Britain a century or two ago, stealing it from the commoners using their big sticks and muskets. Who said it was theirs? Their descendants should drop dead immediatey, if they have any sense of shame! That field should be mine, I tell ye!
Then there are all those rascals who inherited other forms of wealth rather than working for it theirselves. What if they do believe it belongs to their selfish genes? They must realise they are Bad and drop themselves into the nearest grave, just after making out the will leaving their wealth to hard-working shedmen in Galgate.
Then there are those exploiters who are enslaving and milking the labour from folk who really should get paid a decent wage. These capitalist men are the worst kind of robber, as they take a wodge every day and leave just enough groats to keep the slave fit enough to work some more. Let these exploiter-men drop themselves over the nearest convenient cliff immediately! After all, they didn't invent the gew-gaws they make and sell, they merely bought the patent, probably with inherited wealth!
***
On the other hand, one can view government bureaucrats, management consultants, purveyors of gew gaws and other worthless occupations as merely an inescapable environmental factor in the Great Human Ecology of Culture and Society. Unless they are making it hard for me to actually live, I am inclined to enjoy life and give not a toss about who might be exploiting me via taxes, profiteering or simply stealing my share of the landscape.
As to what Jones next door has - well, his taste is attrocious and them things he has I do not covet! Why, his hoose is full of pointless plastic gew-gawry, the gawk.
And after all, we Westerners are probably exploiting untold armies of folk in the 2nd & 3rd worlds, many of whom no doubt think we should all drop dead so they can drink the coffee, burn the oil and eat the bananas themselves.
Lataxe, a stoic
Rob A.
It was loaded question because the basic premis of the question doesn't allow for a complete and correct answer.. Come-on your mother should have taught you that!
Whatever.
Is that the two step or a waltz your doing? No response is needed, your lack of one to my original question says it all.
Rob
And yet, we subsidize all of those wonderful state-run medical programs. I won't dispute that our system needs changing. Compulsory insurance for all might be the answer. I'm curious to see how the Massachusetts experiment turns out. But the fact of the matter is that our system has created the best hospitals and doctors in the world, and the vast majority of medical innovations as well.The rest of the world benefits from these new technologies, but doesn't pay for them. We share our discoveries in peer-reviewed publications, but don't charge a dime. The fees from international licensing on our patents are divided between the inventors and their employers in various ways, but the American taxpayer pays for the majority of the R&D. In other countries, they just skip the R&D and wait for it to come from the states. This is oversimplifying things a bit, but not as much as it may first seem. The budget for our National Institutes of Health dwarfs any other government research agency in the world. This is why many of the best and brightest from around the world come to do their work here. I work at a top ten engineering school and do medical research. 80% of our graduates and around a third of our faculty are not American. Their work is financed by the American taxpayer, which benefits us when they're here and subsidizes their home countries medical system when they return home.
perizoqui,
Sure is miserable bsuiness on our part isn't it? I mean They come here learn from us and go home and share our ideals and values with others.. These are going to be among the top men in their country. People in real positions of leadership. They make friends and contacts here and go home and tell others about us.
It's not a 100% but it does make America the leader even when we're not.. We've stopped being the leader in electronics and cars, manufacturing and clothing..
I think you may have misunderstood me. I think it's wonderful that they benefit their countries, and that the whole world prospers from American innovation. But that innovation costs money, and that money pushes up the bottom line of our health care. Other countries don't spend that money, so they have artificially low health care costs. In effect, other nations' health-care is subsidized by the American taxpayer in the form of new technologies and a trained workforce. This makes their bottom line misleading.This isn't an argument for not helping the world out, just a caution when interpreting figures relating to health-care expenditures around the world.
perizoqui,
OK well explained. However the savings other countries have is more from the lack of administration costs than where their doctors/nurses recieve their training..
You are correct in that other nations benefit from our largese but as I pointed out we indirectly recieve benefits from that as well.
The major reason our health care costs are so high relative to the rest of the world have little to do with our developing medience or procedures which other gain from. (we also gain from the rest of the world so it's not quite as one way as it can be made out to be) An example, lazik surgery.. the Russians perfected that and brought it here..
We also use much of the third world to test out latest drugs and procedures to prove their safety and efficacy.
The reason our costs are so high is because of administrational costs and also due to the major players have little or no real economic power to control costs.
My daughter is in college to become an RN.. in less than two years she will start here at $55,800 per year. (start!) and if she remains with a hospital for 6 years they will pay her whole student loan debt off!
Another words free education and a starting wage at age 20 of $55,800.
Lucky for my daughter but who pays for that generosity?
> An example, lazik surgery.. the Russians perfected that and brought it here..Russians perfected a lot of weapons, but I doubt they perfected much helpful technology. A simple look at "lasik" in wikipedia points to a much smaller contribution from them for this technology than you suggest. They did not start it, they did not do half the effort, and it was patented in the US. I don't care much about the origins of eye surgery but if you're going to debate a topic with facts, at least provide true ones. Andy
Carya,
There have been too many published reports in various magazines such as News week and Time reporting the origins of lazik surgery for that to be valid.
I'll give you marks because I don't know who invented it, I do know it was popularized in the former Soviet Union long before it arrived here. Decades ago they were doing 20 & 30 surgeries a day when it still was experimental here..
Simply because one source fails to mention their proficiency doesn't mean it 's not true!
Frenchy, you need to check your facts better. It makes the rest of what you say seem foolish.The patent for the laser used in lasik surgery is owned by a man named Gabriel Simon, a spaniard who did his residency under Jose Barraquer, another spaniard. The latter developed the technique in the early 50s, and Dr Simon developed the instrumentation that is used today. Dr. Simon spent some time in Miami and Boston, and several of his many patents are american. He does research in the states because unlike countries with socialized health care, we fund research. He currently owns and operates two opthalmology clinics: one in Barcelona, and one in Madrid. He is also a professor at Boston University where he continues to do research in collaboration with an American company. Some of that research into treatments for glaucoma is done in my lab. When the west was developing this and many other life-changing technologies with taxpayer funded research programs, the russians were slaughtering twenty million of their own people in the gulags.I find that marveling at Soviet science is like admiring the technological achievements of the third reich. I think I like our way better.
perizqui,
I simply can't dispute your facts however nothing in your history precludes the Soviets from popularising it.. making it common much sooner there than we did here..
That's basically what I read and reported on..
You don't have to point out the flaws of communism to me.. I fought them for over 9 years in the Navy.. I am not any sort of "fan" of their system of government. However not everything they did was wrong (most, but even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while) ;-)
PS Most of those Soviet deaths in the Gulag were long before this occured but that pales in comparison to the estimated 50 million chineese who starved as a result of Maos' great leap forward during the 60's
Right you are, on all counts.
robert1
I keep telling other how little I pay in taxes.. Not because I want others to feel bad but so that
1
On the short term they find a good tax preparer who really understands the tax code not just which numbers to put in which blank.
2
On the long term they think about the tax code , all 22,000 pages of it and start demanding a simpler more fair way to collect taxes.
Those 22,000 pages offer countless exemptions and deductions which the average tax payer doesn't know about or have a clue as to if they apply. That's unfair because the really wealthy have experts who know about them and how to apply them so they are allowed the deduction.
I do have a simple/fair way for the government to collect taxes and the sweet part of it would be that you get to select how much taxes you want to pay.. please ask.
ALL, well mostly all,
Not meaning to re-hijack this discussion but has anyone heard any more news relevant to the original discussion, i.e. Lee Valley?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
robert1
Not just Clinton but us liberals as a a group as well. Thank you for seeing what I've been saying all along..
PS when Clinton ran we elected him in part because he promised to end welfare as we know it!
It got much better there for a while.. more welfare recipants were able to get off welfare due the trainig requirement (and money provided for that training) untill Bush came along and decided to end that program.. now welfare rates are going back up as well as the length of time they are on welfare.
Not to worry , the Democratic Communist Socialist Part is coming to a state near all of us and we will get what our brothers in Canada have taxes,taxes, taxes we all need a little more taxes. Keep the powder dry and remember the Boston Tea Party.
robert1
I don't play computer games like you children do.
I read and listen and watch things.. If you want to play on your computer there are many web sites which will tell the history of the Clinton family or you can buy his book and read it or you could have watched the election campaign speeches etc..
As for the end of certain welfare programs my wife told me about those..
robert1
Thank you for providing me with the proof I needed. You really ought to find a better more reliable source though. Your source is a known right wing mouth piece. I'm sure there is some left wing chart that shows the opposite conclusion. Which is really my point about computer games
But let's look at your numbers.. during the Clinton administration they rewrote the welfare provisions and you'll see (allowing for lag time) where they took effect.
So my earlier statement that rates declined during the Clinton administration is correct is it not? Further you'll notice a flattening of the rate of decline when Bush got elected. If your chart went further to cover the last 3 years you'll note an upturn in the last nearly three years as the funds for those programs were cut off again allowing for lag time.
Thanks for proving my statement
robert1 so tell me how do you play this computer game.
From what I've seen you do is you get on a subject and take some position , call those who oppose you something or other and demand they play the game with you..
Those foolish enough to engage in such childish antics will post something which you will refute with some information of dubious origans and post your own information of dubious origan.
both claim you are correct and make negative remarks about the other.
Reasoned discourse doesn't seem to enter into things. It's accept my version !!!@!!!
Do you score points if they post something or if they visit whatever place you send them to? If they pick up a virus or something from wandering around who gets the points then?
I'm sorry if it disappoints you that I won't play your game in spite of what you call me.. Find someone closer to your age to play with if you want to continue to play..
This is really bad news, because Lee Valley is a wonderful company that has made woodworking better for us all. I will continue to buy from them every chance I get, and will absorb the "extra" cost because its not that much and I go for quality always.
Mike Griffin
Indianapolis
Mike, Leonard's comments were taken out of context, as has been clarified elsewhere. What he meant was that it's possible Veritas might have to lay off employees in a year or so if the combination of the rising Canadian dollar and increased costs due to Ontario provincial government policies doesn't abate. In the last 10 months the Canadian dollar has gone from $0.85 US to $1.07 US, and 5 years ago it was $0.65 US. That's difficult to absorb when your largest market is the US.
Thanks for the clarification. Its amazing how people misinterpret information.
~~mike
David,
Then I wonder how Lie Nielsen does it.. His labor costs must be higher and I seriously doubt he does much export busness..
I don't know what Lie-Nielsen's export volume is but is probably a small fraction of their sales. A British woodworking magazine commented a couple years ago when the pound was around $1.65 US (now around $2.00 US) that the rise in the pound had made the LN planes competitive price-wise with the Cliftons. So the export volume may be up.
Lie-Nielsen is on the mid-coast of Maine where labor costs are relatively low and jobs are relatively scarce. Very different than most metropolitan areas. A year or so ago there was an interview with Tom Lie-Nielsen on the web; I think it was on the FW site but not sure. He gave some numbers as to their annual volume and it was surprising large. Also, if my memory is correct he has somewhere in the vicinity of 70 employees. He obviously runs a very efficient operation.
Veritas is in Ottawa, the capital of Canada. I don't know what labor costs are there but at the current exchange rates they may well be more than the mid-coast of Maine. Also, the change in exchange rates meant that Veritas' costs went up rather abruptly relative to the US, which I'm sure is their major market.
My understanding based on Rob Lee's comments elsewhere was that his father was trying to say that it was becoming increasing more expensive to do business in Ontario, and if that trend continued Veritas might have to adjust.
LN is a US company, it obviously works in the same markets it sells too. It pays it's employees, and sells it's good in US funds. Veritas works in the Canadian market and sells to the US market. The dollar increased from 0.85 to over a 1.00 in the last few months, that's a pretty heavy cut in profit.
On a percentage of business I suspect that LN exports much less than Veritas. Canada's population just isn't big enough.
Buster2000
I was aware of that but that answer should point out the problem.
If your business plan requires that exchange rates remain in a certain position for you to be profitable than as the exchange rate changes that shouldn't come as a surprise..
What I personally took offence was that the tone of the statement was that the employees were somehow the reason for the trouble. Instead of accepting responsibility for a business plan structured on beneficial exchange rates..
I don't know the owner and perhaps he's a wonderfully decent guy. I do know a lot of owners here who have wonderful employees. However the owner due to greed went off shore/out of country for increased profits and suddenly find them selves on the back side of the exchange rate deal. American Manufactures can bid competitively in Japan with American made products.
Frenchy,
Okay, but your compasion of LN exports to LV exports was unfair.
The problem isn't that the exchange rate changed, it's that it's changed so quickly. I think it's difficult for most companies when the take a 15% hit in profits in two months.
That is the issue with exchange rates and manufacturing. I was readingin the paper yesterday that made in the US items is set to make a resurgence in exports.
For what it's worth the people that I know at the Lee Valley stores really enjoy working for the company.
Buster
Buster,
The exchange rate hasn't declined/inclined (depending on which side of the border you are on) didn't happen in that short a time span. It's been slowly but steadily recahing parity over the last year or so. The last time I looked it was ~.97 USD / 1.00 CDN.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
End of August to October, it jumped from $0.95 - $1.10. It had receded slightly by the time the article was written ($0.99) on December 10th. In any event it had climbed from 0.85 in May, about a 17% increase in six months.
Most analysts here were not predicting this dramatic of a jump (until the jump happend of course). I suspect that the comments from Lee Valley were in reaction to the fears the dollar would go higher again.
So why not price their items in Canadian dollars? Then if you buy from abroad they calculate the exchange rate at checkout time. Seems a simple way to do things which would make them immune to exchange-rate fluctuations. When I go buy something from a British website, they quote me the price in pounds. When I buy a plane from Philip Marcou, we agree on a price in NZD. This is standard practice precisely to avoid this sort of problem. If they had a bricks and mortar establishment in the US with inventory, then there'd be no way around it, but they have a virtual store online. List prices in Canadian dollars and add a currency converter to the webpage. Seems simple enough.
The problem is a matter of affordability for US customers. In 2002 $6 USD would buy you a $10 CDN item, currently that same $10 item would now cost you $10. Lee Valley makes the same per plane, but now sells less planes.
I agree that there catalogue prices should be CDN. But I suspect that from a marketing perspective there would be a backlash in the US. The US is the larger market. I suspect what they've done is in the cataloges is estimate an average US exchange for the upcoming year.
Buster2000
I've watched the American dollar lose value for the past 6 years.. two months? someone wasn't watching the change.. Besides there are things you can do to to protect yourself on exchange rate fluctuations..
For Decades Canada benefitted from the strong American dollar. I heard complaints about Canadian Taxes for example but converted to American dollars those taxes weren't steeper than American taxes.
Frenchy, the difference between the Cdn Dollar and the US dollar was a fairly slow creep up until May of last year. $0.65 - $0.85 from 2002 to 2007. Then essentially the same jump in 6 months.
Your correct that Canadians have benefited from a strong US dollar. The US accounts for 80% of our exports.
I heard complaints about Canadian Taxes for example but converted to American dollars those taxes weren't steeper than American taxes.
I don't know about that. Most of my Canadian friends that move down to Houston really do prefer the American taxes. It seems rates are similar, but you can write off more for deductions. (Mortgage interest for example). The only real deductions I can make on my taxes in a year is my RRSP (401K? equivalent), some donationsWe also pay for more social services such as health care.
Honestly I can see where Mr. lee is coming from. He already pays taxes, standard benefits for health care, extra benefits for health care... and no the provincial government wants him to pay an additional surcharge for health care to cover their own mismanagment of the funds he already gave them!
It was my understanding they also wanted him to provide a day off with pay out of his pocket. Politicians of every country seem to be very generous with other peoples money. Perhaps if they feel people warrant a days pay without a days work they should take up a collection amongst themselves to pay for it.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
It was my understanding they also wanted him to provide a day off with pay out of his pocket.
Yes, it was very generous of the governement to do that. I think we get a few more stat holidays than our southern neighbours already. I think it's 10 or 11 at my company. As a worker I can not complain, but as an investor... grrr.... I'm so conflicted.
Just my stupid comment. I'm good at doing this!Europe with a 30 day holiday! No pay? / Who Pays? Gets to be a pretty tight fit on the beaches then!
"Gets to be a pretty tight fit on the beaches then!"
It sure does Will!
Rob
One has to ask why you keep these photos on your hard drive?
ROFL!
I just googled fat guy in a speedo when I saw the post and saved them so I could make that post. Please don't get the wrong idea... actually, now that I think about it I should probably erase those before my wife starts asking similar questions! :^)
Rob
The lad doth protest too much, methinks.
Edited 1/6/2008 8:01 pm ET by perizoqui
OK, you got me. I've been trying to hide it, but the truth comes out. I am a gay chubby chaser. :^)
Rob
You can't hide that kind of thing. It was obvious in your posts.
-Steve
Rob,
Surely they don't need chasing (not more than 2 feet, anyway)?
Send pics of what happens when you catch a one. (I am calling the rozzers now).
Lataxe, a slim bloke with a ladywife he dotes on, not at all chubby and runs very fast.
GOOD GRIEF! What have I done? ;-)
Perizoqui, Steve and Lataxe:
I just wanted to let you know that I am enjoying reading your barbs. I just can't figure out how to respond to them without digging myself a deeper hole.
Keep 'em coming, I've got hide like a rhino.
Rob
I can see the personal ad now:Gay chubby chaserseeks chubby gayguy. Hide like arhino.
-Steve
Steve,
That was priceless. I'm still laughing.
Rob
Just don't tell us you're republican and "have a wide stance"!
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
By the way, thanks for the e-mail! It went to my spam box but I found it today, I'll reply when I get a few minutes.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
??
"Gay chubby chaser
seeks chubby gay
guy. Hide like a rhino.
Have horn . Will travel.
??Philip Marcou
Perhaps if they feel people warrant a days pay without a days work they should take up a collection amongst themselves to pay for it.
I'll vote for that!
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, and it bears repeating again, hedging vehicles exist to manage exchange rate risk - even for smaller companies.If the strong CAD is wearing them out, they have nobody to blame but themselves. Nobody. I could design a hedging program for a company their size inside of two weeks and for a fee in the low five figures with half my brain tied behind my back.A company better get good and fat when the exchange rate is favorable because they'll need the stored liquidity when it moves against them.Not hedging exchange rate risk is like the farmer who never hedges - you're ALWAYS long the physical commodity. Works great when prices move your way. Sounds like Lee Valley was lapping it up when CAD was weak.
Edited 1/4/2008 1:53 pm ET by UrbaneLegend
There is something about your response that rubs me the wrong way. It smacks of the same kind of creative financial manipulations that gave us the derivatives market and the sub-prime mortgage market. FWIW, I worked for Lee Valley a few years back and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. The people who worked there bust their buns to make sure the customer gets the best product for their hard earned buck. While I was there, I can honestly say that I never met a "suit" who would spend time talking to anyone about setting up a currency hedging program! I'm currently the CEO of a software company that deals with the currency issue every day. Our licensed products are sold all over the world and we get paid in US$. If I sound irritated, it's because I am constantly approached by consultants and lawyers who are eager to 1) borrow my watch so they can tell me what time it is or 2) second-guess past decisions to prove that they could have helped me avoid such issues as how to deal with such things as a currency that rose 15% in less than 6 months. OK. . .rant over. I'm going back to my workshop!Regards from the frozen North!!
Well Ron, the forwards market in currencies has existed for close to a thousand years.
Well run companies subject to foreign currency translation risk hedge that risk. You can get your pants in a knot all you want, but it is a permanent feature of well managed firms.
The only thing is "smacks of" is intelligence and good stewardship.
I'm sorry that when you are approached by those that can help you you aren't in the position to say that you already have a plan implemented. You should. It's good business.
If you are exporting your product to other countries you are enjoying the fruits of the weak dollar. People are more able to afford the software you sell when it's priced in dollars (assuming they are converting a currency that has appreciated vs. the dollar and almost all have) and you pay your workforce with the weak dollar (not so for Lee Valley).
Lee Valley is being paid in US dollars but having to convert those dollars to CAD to pay its workforce and other bills. If you're being paid with a weak currency and then convert to your home currency then you have to raise prices to your customers using the weak currency. If Lee Valley could pay its workforce and Canadian vendors with U.S. dollars then there wouldn't be a problem. The problem arises for all firms when funds have to be converted.
It's all really simple and it's simple to manage the risk.
Edited 1/5/2008 8:32 am ET by UrbaneLegend
"What I personally took offence was that the tone of the statement was that the employees were somehow the reason for the trouble."
Frenchy,
Where did you see a statement that alludes to the employee's being the reason for the trouble?
Rob
Rob A.
I should go back and referance just what was said, But if I recall properly the article started out speaking about the exchange rate and switched to their cost of labor. That implies that the employees should work for less so the company can remain competitive..
Frenchy,
Yeah, you probably should go back and reread what he said because he never says anything approaching an implication that the employees should work for less. He does state that some of the government policies are set up in a way that encourages employers to cut payroll. But that is just stating a fact. If the local government doesn't want employers to cut jobs or wages maybe they should stop passing regulations that are set up in a ways that force or encourage employers to do just that.
Rob
I kept a Tucker vise in "my cart" for the past few weeks to see if it would go up in price because of the falling US dollar. Today was the day it changed. Tucker vises are now $675.00 as opposed to $599.00 on their website
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