no.7 jointer plane for edge jointing
This is my first post to this forum. I’m new to woodworking and I’m slowly assembling my workshop.
I’m looking to an inexpensive alternative to the power jointer for edge-joining boards. Tage Frid, in his book on joinery, suggests using a hand plane with a simple jig to guide the plane. I can’t afford the Lie-Neilsen No. 7, so I’m considering buying a hand jointer plane made by a company called Anant (sold by Woodworker’s Supply).
My question is: can I get reasonably good results from the relatively inexpensive Anant plane? Sould I save my money and buy a power jointer or the Lie-Nielsen No. 7? (In the mean time, I’ll have to use the machines a community woodworking shop where the tools are not always maintained in perfect alignment.)
Robert in Albuquerque
Replies
For the price of a new Anant, of which I have no experience, you can probably buy a used Stanley or Record. I can almost guarantee that the Stanley or Record will require less tuning up than the Anant. There are lots of books out there, and articles, on tuning planes, which have been previously mentioned on this board.
I agree that a nice used one would be preferable, but they can be difficult to find and expensive. I've used the #7 Anant for about a year now with no complaints.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thank you for the reply. Do you have any advice specific to the Anant? Do you use it exclusively for joining boards to make larger stock?
Robert in Albuquerque
Robert,
No, I don't use it only for jointing edges; it works well for smoothing also, especially on long stock.
I've seen someone who sells them with wooden handles and totes, which would be nicer than the plastic ones which Woodworkers sells.
If you buy one, plan on spending an evening sharpening and tweaking. That way you won't be rushed and quit before the job is done.
Good luck,
Jeff
Patrick Leach also sells old planes and frequently has both No. 7's and 8's for sale. I've bought several things from him and found his things to be fairly described and priced. http://www.supertool.com
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to find a good used Stanley, but if I can't find one quickly, I'll probably go with the Anant.
The Lie-Neilson #7 is about $400 dollars, wonderful tool but ...
I think I'd invest in a 4 1/2 Lie-Neilson..less expensive, more versatile...and a good belt sander if you don't have one. The belt sander is your back up in case the skills don't develop quite as quickly as your hoping. good luck
I can't make head nor tail of your answer there, BG. I'm trying to work out where a 4-1/2 smoothing plane has a role in jointing the edges of very long pieces prior to gluing and assembling a solid timber top, such as a dining table. It's surely too short to be ideal for straightening a long edge, but okay for a short edge? And for the life of me I can't see how a hand held belt sander would be a preferable tool over a try (jointer) plane (No. 7 or No. 8) for such a task. I suspect you might have mis-read the question? Slainte, RJ. Some stuff I've made.
RJ,
Thanks for jumping in. By the way, I especially like your Cabinet 73.
Robert in Albuquerque
Wow...talk about missing the question. It's not my fault. I've been listening to too many politicians...ask what ever you want, they answer what ever they want...
I thought I heard him say he was starting to acquire tools...he was buying the # 7 Lie-Neilson for jointing...and what do folks know about power jointers. On Mars, that means after he joints the wood he'll need to smooth the top....and buy parrafin oil to rub out the shellac (ha,ha)
My thoughts, what little there was, went to my recent experience building my workbench from rough maple...which is a little tricky doing without a workbench. I thought the 4 1/2 is a bit more versatile and perhaps a better place to start out. I love my Stanley #7, but the jack did the bulk of the work.
As you and others have pointed out, a well tuned plane is what is important..the make, not so much. Likewise, the differences between planes, relative to there functionality, in the mid range at least (3,4,5,6), is not so great.
With all the aforementioned logic flowing through my brain it was clearly too late to lift the seat (so to speak). It's a happy world I live in and with some help on an outpatient basis I'm sure all the neighbors will be safe.....lol
Edited 11/6/2002 7:21:27 AM ET by BG
No biggie. I do it too. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Okay, so I can't make up my mind on which plane to buy for jointing boards. To make matters worse, while browsing a Lie-Nielsen catalog that just came in the mail, I noticed a plane called the Bronze Edge Plane.
The catalog says it's an adaptation of the Stanley No. 95. It has an integral 90-degree fence and it's primary use is trimming edges of stock square. The catalog also says it makes an effective small jointer when used with a straight edge (I'm not sure how). From what I can tell, it should work fine jointing 3/4-inch stock. Sounds like the perfect solution. What do you think?
Robert in Albuquerque
Robert,
I have the Lee Valley version of the #95. The LV tool is larger than the Lie-Nielsen, and it has the additional qualities that come with the larger size: it's a little heavier and the sole and fence are a bit longer. When I bought it the price was significantly lower than the LN version.
It works great for squaring the edges of stock--for making the sides meet at ninety degrees. But I cannot see using it for jointing. It seems to me the sole is far too short; and I can't imagine a workable, useful implement that would make it a serviceable jointer. If you run across such an implement see if you can post a picture or a drawing.
I have used my #95 plane to square up edges after I have jointed them straight. Even with lots of practice it's still way too easy to create a little chamfer. I run the 95 along the edge until it is square and then make one more pass with my #7. It works.
Alan
Alan,
I agree. I don't see how the No. 95 could make a straight joint, but the Lie-Neilsen catalog says that it can when used with a straight edge. I'll have to do some more research. I'll just have to get a No. 7. Probably a used Stanley from eBay.
Robert
Check out Ebay. I have purchased all of my planes on Ebay and have been very pleased with each of them. The prices were also right. Don't get locked into any one offering. If the price is too high there are or will be others offered shortly.
I bought my Stanley #7 on Ebay about 18 months ago. I might have paid $50 for it and it is in great shape. I had it tuned and using in less than 30 minutes.
Just my 2 cents.
Good luck
Joe,
Thank you for your advice. I'll head to eBay right away.
Robert in Albuquerque
I have never used anything other than Stanley planes, and they are all flea market/ yard sale items. Once you start using handplanes you will need to know how to lap and tune them anyway, so you might as well get an older, better tool for very little cost. You do need to know how to pick out a good one from a bad one though. I think there's a web site devoted to Stanley plane collecting and you should check it out. Do a search for Stanley Blood and Gore.
Dave,
Following your lead, I found Patrick Leach's Stanley page. Wow! What a fantastic source of information on plane trivia. It'll take me several days to digest it all. Thanks for the advice.
Robert in Albuquerque
I use "Blood & Gore" in conjunction with another page:http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip8/stanley/stan-bpl/bailey-types.htmto evaluate the planes I find on eBay. A lot of times the planes sold there are mix-and-matches of parts of planes from different eras. This is a great site for identifying the age of a Stanley/Bailey plane and how it compares to other types of the same number.
Jase--Is there a better way?
Robert,
I do all my edge jointing with a Record #7. I own one Lie-Nielsen plane (a #4) and it's true it feels better, and somehow seems to work better than my lesser smoothing planes. I have no doubt that the LN #7 would work better than a Record or Stanley--but not $400 better!
You can supercharge a Record or Stanley with a Clifton (or other after market) iron, along with the Clifton two piece back iron. The difference is astonishing.
You can get a fence if you want to. Lee Valley sells one, as does St. James, or you can very easily make one out of some scrap. The only thing is use my fence for is chamfering. Keeping the plane perfectly level on a 3/4" edge is pretty tough; but it can be done with practice; and if you joint both boards at the same time the edges don't need to be exactly ninety degrees.
One tool you might want to get is a good, long straight edge. N.b., I said straightedge, not ruler. Lee Valley sells aluminum straight edges, guaranteed to the same standard as the much more expensive Starrett straight edges, for about one third the cost of the steel Starretts.
Alan
Alan,
Thank you for your advice. I'm sure it will take some effort on my part to properly tune the no. 7 and I expect to spend time practicing jointing edges with it. It's reassuring to know that others can get good results with the Anant no. 7.
I'll buy the Anant and spend the money I save (versus buying a Stanley or Record) to buy a Clifton iron and possibly a Clifton chip breaker. I'll probably have a better tool in the end. Thank you for the excellent advice.
Robert in Albuquerque
Sounds like you have made up your mind, and others have said about the same thing, but I would also suggest picking up a used Stanley #7.
I bought my #7 at a woodworkers garage sale for $15-20. I could not justify torturing myself with a new plane unless I were to buy a LN. The used plane may not be new, but it has character and history. And it doesn't cost $400.
One of the reasons I love to work with wood is that each and every piece of wood is different and is a result of its history. Finding out what is inside a rough piece of lumber is so exciting. Using tools that have a history behind them seems to me that I am carrying on with that tools history.
I also feel that I can get more for my money with used tools. I can go out and buy a used Parks cast iron 12" planer for nearly the same price as a new Delta 12". Do I gain anything with the new planer? In my opinion, definitely not. This doesn't apply to all tools though.
Look around. E-bay has a lot of planes available. Garage sales and flea markets have planes also. But you need to have your eyes open. The Blood and Gore website is very helpful.
To each his own, ultimately the decision is yours.
Troy,
I too, am fond of the idea of refurbishing an old tool rather than buying a new inexpensive plane with plastic parts, but I'd like to buy something quickly so I can get to work (my spouse has me on a tight schedule to finish a particular project). I wish I had the time to shop for a used Stanley no. 7.
On the other hand, another option is to use a power jointer at my community woodshop while I shop for a used Stanley. Hey, there's an idea. Thank you for the advice.
Robert in Albuquerque
Edge jointing with a hand plane - Heresy!
Well, get the blade more than razor sharp so you can take off very thin shavings with slow, steady, movement along the length of the board. Also get two bench vises mounted about 4' apart, or more, on a sturdy work bench. It's absolutely amazing what a jointer plane can do once u get the hang of it. I GUARANTEE it! (quoting Mattress Mack, of Houston fame)
I got a #7 and a #8 in excellect condition on Ebay for less than $50 each. Type 10, 11, and 12 were good vintages.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Mike,
Thank you for the advice. I'll keep my eyes open for a good used No. 7.
Robert in Albuquerque
RJWATA,
If you have not done it..take the opportunity to click on Planewoods Mike-in-Katy's name and visit his home page.....you'll enjoy it.
You can also use a router very effectively. If you are interested and have a router email me and I can give you instructions.
Good Luck
John
Robert
In my experence I have had better luck joining boards with a table saw than any other way. I clamp a 2 inch piece of alummnim U channel to my fence 10 feet long and run my lumber through removeing a little at a time until the board is square and true. When I true up my last board I lay them out the way I'm going to glue them up. They should all be touching without having to pull together with clamps. If you have to use clamps you could have a joint failure later on. Lets say the last board you ran through the saw was 6 inches wide and your sawblade takes a 1/8 inch kerf out. Move your fence over to 5 15/16. Take 2 of the boards you are going to join and tack a 1" X 2" sacrificial strip across each end of the two boards (not on the ends but near on the top). Set your blade on the saw to cut through the boards you are joining but not all the way through the 1" X 2" strips. Run through the saw with the 6" board next to the fence. What this should do is take 1/16 of each board at the most. After you do this I always remove the 1 X 2 and check to see if they are joined, if not repeat with new 1 X 2 s. Once you get the first 2 edges joined, join the second edge of the first board, your saw is already set for 5 15/16 move it over to 5 7/8 and repeat with the 1 X 2s. Your boards do not have to be the same width you are joining.
I have tried joining with a hand plane and on long boards I never could get the results I wanted. I had a small joiner and I also had trouble with long boards.
Good Luck Count You Blessings and Your Fingers Often
les
Les,
That's a hellofa idea, thanks for sharing...
BG
The largest thing I've made like this was a tabletop out of red oak 87" X 35" X 15/16". I used 5 boards. Worked fine for me. I personally never could join too well with my 22" plane.
I ran into something a few years ago that was interesting to me. My daughters mother-in law had given her a secretary desk with 3 drawers in it. It was well over 100 years old, came out of Pennsylvania. The family had always thought it was walnut, well it wasn't walnut. I could identify popular, chestnut, and pine. My daughter started to strip it to refinish, that's when dad came in. It ended up in my shop with me disassembling most of it. The writing surface on the inside was popular and chestnut, the boards were neither the same thickness nor were they the same width end to end. It was made out of 5 boards. The board nearest the front edge where the hinges attached was 2 inches on one end 4 inches on the other. The underside none of the boards were the same thickness one still has a little bark on it. When I sanded it down the popular still had a little green cast to it. It was put together with nails and glue and still in pretty good shape. I had to replace some of the runners the drawers slid on, it turned out OK.
The whole thing was made out of solid wood and I didn't see anything done to accommodate the wood expansion. Before I build anything I design my project with this in mind. I suppose being put together with nails wasn't a bad idea, I always use screws.
Good Luck
les
I've made perfect joints on long boards using my router. Screw a board on the reverse side of each end leaving about 3/8" gap between the two boards to be jointed. Clamp a guide board on the top to guide the router base such that you take off about 1/16" from each edge. Use a 1/2" shank straight router bit of 1/2" diameter. Just don't bobble as you track down the guide board. If you do bobble, then reset the end spacers and the guide board and do it again.
This has been a savior when needing to do 6'+ joins. This is about as close to perfect joints as I have ever gotten.
Oh yeah, don't stumble over the electric cord like I did once. Do a dry run first with the bit raised.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
So your doing both edges at the same time? wow! How thick would you go with the boards before you'd be concerned it was too much? thanks
BG - most I've ever done was a full 1". With a heavier router and a down spiril bit I think you could do 1.5".
One thing you have to watch for is the router base not being perfectly centered on the bit. I mark a spot on the base with a small piece of tape and keep that spot in contact with the guide board. Also, you should use a real wide guide board so it won't bow in the center as you guide the router along it. Either that, or a long reach clamp to cinch it down in the middle.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Yes, a good straight edge is important. I made a template of extruded aluminun (sp?) attached to 1/4 ply. I have one for my router with a 1/2 bit and one for my 7 1/2" saw. I can plop those down on any line and cut away with confidence. For smaller cuts I use one of those two way clamps..about 48" long (clamp and glide or something like that)..using that i know the edge of the router is 1 3/4" with a 3/4" bit and 1 7/8" with a 1/2" bit...and I started with 5 fingers on each hand...lol
Les,
Interesting idea. I'll give it a try. The lumber I have is already jointed on one edge; could I skip the first step with the 10 foot U channel and just rip the pieces to rough width?
Robert in Albuquerque
This is a technique I've seen but not tried. Use your jointer or a jack with a long shooting board. Plywood flooring comes in 12x3 ft panels. My local supplier has a panel saw and for a $1 a cut will slit a panel into two. Offset the pieces, screw together, attach cleats and you have a 12 ft long shooting board. The panel saw cuts a straight line so you have a straight edge that you can plane to and hence easily get a straight edge and consistent angle. If you stack the boards you're jointing together, imagine folding them like the leaves of a hinge, it wont matter if the sides of your plane are not exactly 90deg. as the resulting edges will match.
Ian,
I saw this same technique in Tage Frid's book on joinery. I'll give it a try as soon as I find a good used Stanley No. 7.
Robert in Albuquerque
Robert
Because you're using the shooting board as a straight edge, you don't need to use a jointer. A jack or #4 is probably more than long enough to span any small ripples.
Ian
Robert
I should explain the reason I use the 10' aluminum U channel is because it was left over from a boondoggle 30 years ago. It is the longest straightest thing I have I can clamp to my saw fence. By running the board through and joining both edges as best I can with my saw I don't have much to do to join them to another board. So after I have all my boards as true as I can I take the last board I ran through the saw and that is the board I will run through again attached to the board I'm going to Join it to after I move my fence over half the width of my sawblade. ( Whew!that was a long sentence) Most blades (except thin kerf blades) will take 1/8" kerf, so moving the fence over will take 1/16 " off each board at the most. I hope I'm explaining myself clearly, if not ask questions.
To answer your questions I would run the board through the saw running the already joined edge against the fence and move the fence over a saw kerf and run it through again with the new edge against the fence.
Welcome to wood working, there are a lot of ways to do a job and the joy about WW you can try them on different jobs and invent some of your own. Just because you did it once you don't have to do it that way again unless you want to. You will figure out what is best for you.
Now the preaching part. Be careful I had a friend lost a joint on his left hand middle finger in September. He was using a portable table saw on something low to the ground and was squatting down I really don't what happened but he got his hand into the blade mangled the one joint so bad they couldn't reattach it chewed up two other fingers but they were able to save them. He accepts responsibility for the accident, he said he was just careless. Practice safe work habits always in the workshop, keep your work area clear, unplug any electrical equipment before changing blades or bits.
Count Your Blessings and Your Fingers Often
les
Les,
Thank you for the warnings. I'm already very careful when changing blades; I trip the breaker that supplies power to the saw.
I tried your jointing trick and it works wonderfully. Thanks again! I bought an 8 foot aluminum u-channel at my local metalmart and clamped it to my rip fence. It provides a long surface which allows me to straighten the rough edge of my stock. Works great.
How do you deal with the nail holes left from tacking the 1x2 to hold the boards together? I just cut the inividual pieces about an inch longer than required and I'll trim the holes off after gluing up. Have you devised a better method?
Robert
Robert
Sorry I haven't got back to you, for some reason or another I didn't pick up on your reply. I usually nail on the backside of my board or if I need too I use a little filler.
I'm glad it worked for you, you will devise some methods of doing different things as you work more wood and someday I may have a post and you can help me out.
God Bless and Happy Holidays
les
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