Replies

1. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 27, 2005 08:41pm | #1

   Although lots of beginners start out using manufactured veneers with pressure-sensitive adhasive on the back, hide glue and a veneer hammer isn't too difficult, and is far more forgiving than either PSA or contact cement.

   I flat veneering table and cauls can provide great results, though not quite as easy or flexible as a vacuum bag.

   You might want to check out a few books on veneering; Taunton's "The Veneering Book" provides lots of useful information.

   -Jazzdogg-

   "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

1. 
   BKmountain | Nov 27, 2005 10:20pm | #2

   Thank you for the info.  I'll take a trip to the library to check out that book.

    

   ,, Brock 

2. 
   RMillard | Nov 28, 2005 02:07pm | #3

   I do a lot of veneering and have no desire for a vacuum press. I hammer veneer, which uses hide glue and a squeegee like tool ( where the hammer name came from I have no idea) If you do a search on this site you should find more info on the process. Hammer veneering is one of those things where you'll learn more in 10 minutes of actually doing it, than you will from hours of reading.

    Another good book is Veneering a Foundation Course by Mike Burton.

   I would disregard the method of using yellow glue that has cured or partially cured and then activated with an iron, as a way to veneer without a press. It seems a poor substitute for hammer veneering which is easy and has a proven track record of hundreds if not thousands of years.

    

   Rob Millard

    

1. 
   ASK | Dec 08, 2005 02:25am | #7

   RMillard,

   I've done some veneering over the years and have used the dried glue and iron method with success. I've also used urethane glue on curved surfaces in a form. The two tool I don't have are a vacuum press and a veneer hammer. For the table I want to build a vacuum press setup would cost me about the same as the table. I don't know where to buy a veneer hammer, but I'd love to have on and guess it is a lot cheaper than a press. I get all the catalogues and have never seen one offered. Any suggestions?

   ASK

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 08, 2005 01:31pm | #9

   ASK,

   I guess I should not have been so harsh in my judgement of ironing on veneer over dried glue. I have such an aversion to yellow glue that it clouds my opinions.

    I think Garrett Wade sells a veneer hammer, as does Highland Hardware. I know Lee Valley does, and my local Woodcraft does too. I made mine from some scrap wood and a piece of UHMW plastic, for the blade ( see photo).

   Rob Millard

    

   
1. 
   ASK | Dec 08, 2005 06:28pm | #10

   Thanks Rob for the info.

   That looks pretty simple.

   ASK

2. 
   DaveBarker | Dec 09, 2005 10:35pm | #12

   I've heard that WalMart carries large bags (used for storing household items) that can be used for vacuum veneering. Apparently they even have "zip lock" closures. They might only last a couple of times but it might be an easy way to try it out. You would just need a small electric or hand vacuum pump.

1. 
   Woodnfool | Dec 10, 2005 02:23am | #13

   Zip lock leak at the two outer seams where the bag is electronically sealed. It distorts the lock. The clothing bags are made of thin but strong material.  As I was interested in seeing if they would work, I tried to convert one, last year with little success. The film is not thick enough for use with veneers. The material gets pulled between the mold and veneer when trying to pump the air out. This makes it hard to pull the veneers over a mold. A more rigid bag is better. I wish the clothing bags would have done the job as I would have used them in our kit. They would have been a lot cheaper than what is included.

   What is critical with a manual system is that the valve, seal and bag are airtight. With an electric system the pump compensates for any decrease in vacuum. The idea of the kit was to come up with a simple and inexpensive way to vacuum veneer. This is why we picked a manual pump from the wine industry as  a vacuum source. It is relatively cheap to buy, is a high HG pump and has a tested valve assembly that does not leak.

   It took a lot of trial and error before I found a combination of materials that would work well enough to market as a vacuum veneer kit and we have been refining the kit over the last 4 years. We started out teaching kids how to make skateboard with a manual vacuum pump/bag/veneer kit. It worked so well that the big retailers caught on to what we were up to and they asked use to come up with a similar kit but for woodworkers. If you are looking for more info, the kit was reviewed a couple of months ago in Fine Woodworking.

   Ted

    

1. 
   John_D | Dec 10, 2005 03:42am | #14

   If you update your profile, people who are curious can go see your product.

2. 
   JohnH | Dec 12, 2005 06:06pm | #18

   Since Ted has not yet responded, here is the website for the manufacturer of the Rockler kit http://www.roarockit.com/ Ted told me that they have changed to a less aggressive adhesive sealant tape. That eases my only mild complaint. I use this vacuum press every day for both laminating and veneer. I like it!

3. 
   Woodnfool | Dec 13, 2005 03:15am | #19

   Thanks John for the link.

   Ted

2. 
   ASK | Dec 10, 2005 07:35am | #16

   Dave,

   Thanks for the lead. I'll try it.

   ASK

2. 
   DaveBarker | Dec 09, 2005 08:46pm | #11

   I've tried hammer veneering several times and got so frustrated I wanted to hammer my head! I've never been able to get the glue just right, I guess. I think there is an art/technique to it that takes lots of practice and skill and maybe a little luck. After trying it and not succeeding, I've lumped it back there with those other things I'll never figure out until somebody shows me in person how to do it. That list keeps growing over the years.Dave

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 10, 2005 05:32am | #15

   Dave,

   Have you tried brushing on a thinned down coat of hide glue on your substrate the day before hammering? This helps control the amount of glue that is absorbed when you hammer. Also, some sources recommend brushing glue on the face of the veneer, and while this certainly works, it is a mess, so I just mist the face with water, to control the curling. It may take little practice, but not much skill, and as for luck, well that is something I'm always short of.

   I think there is a video on this site ( probably now on the pay side) of hide glue showing the proper consistency.

   I'm not sure I could veneer without hammer veneering, it is so quick and versatile. I slapped the top together on the piece shown in the attached photo in less than two hours. I wouldn't even know where to start if I had to tape the pattern together and press it.

   Rob Millard

   
3. 
   DaveBarker | Dec 02, 2005 07:28pm | #4

   I'll second the recommendation for the book, "Veneering a Foundation Course" by Mike Burton. He likes the dried glue/hot iron method of veneering. I have used this with success on small surfaces (clock faces, small curved areas) and have had great success. On larger surfaces you'll have problems with the veneer getting too hot from the iron, shrinking and cracking. I have a vacuum press but I still use the iron method for small pieces.

   Dave

1. 
   Troy | Dec 06, 2005 08:50am | #5

   I have used the dried yellow glue and an iron method and it has worked well for me although the DW was a bit peaved that I wore the teflon off the bottom of the iron. The biggest thing I did with this method was a door where I ironed a new door skin on the exterior of a door. I saw the door some ten years latter and it still is in good shape. I think if you can afford it a vacuum press is a lot easier.Troy

1. 
   DaveBarker | Dec 06, 2005 06:11pm | #6

   I invested $15 in a cheap iron at Target and have been using that. I didn't even want my wife to see me carrying the iron to the shop!I built a vacuum press from the instructions at joewoodworker.com and have used it a lot. It's amazing the new design ideas you start imagining when you can do large veneer work with a press.

4. 
   JohnH | Dec 08, 2005 03:39am | #8

   You might consider the hand-pump vacuum systems available from Rockler or Lee Valley. I've run five veneer or laminate jobs through my Rockler bag and find it is much easier to use than clamps, bearers, and cauls. Not a single bubble and a very thin and uniform glue line. The great thing about vacuum is that you are getting Mother Nature to work for you. For a thin, uniform bond, you want equal pressure all across the workpiece; vacuum delivers it naturally.

   These systems come from the skateboard builders and so are about the same size. So they are not suitable for large projects. My only complaint is the sealant tape is very tenacious. It takes some real finger strength to get the seal open to remove the workpiece.

   I "improved" mine by cutting the mesh tube open (upon the advice of the maker's technical service who answered an email on Saturday within three hours!), and taped it to the top of the bag. The rest of the mesh is taped to the bottom of a half-inch plywood platen board with non-stick paper wrapping. Both the platen and the mesh stay in the bag. The only thing that goes in an out is the workpiece. For veneers, I lay a piece of waxed paper on top to keep the squeeze out away from the mesh.

5. 
   RMillard | Dec 12, 2005 05:39pm | #17

   Brock,

   I posted a thread in the gallery, under the title of customer Christmas gift, that has a link to my home page where I wrote a piece that describes hammer veneering. You may want to look at, to see if that is way for you to veneer without a press.

   Rob Millard

    

6. 
   BarryO | Dec 16, 2005 07:15pm | #20

   It depends on what you want to do.  How big?  A flat surface, or curved?

   For veneering a flat panel that's not large, things can be pretty simple.  A "sandwich" of the panel and the veneers (both sides), wax paper (so the glue doesn't stick), and 2 panels of MDF, with lots of clamps and cauls, works fine with yellow glue, or your glue of choice.  It it's curved, or the panel is so wide that effective clamping pressure cannot be delivered to the middle, or you just don't have many clamps, then you'll need to go a different route.

7. 
   user-83659 | Jan 03, 2006 05:01am | #21

   In reading your post, I was wondering why you did not want to get into vacum veneering.  For me the process of hammer veneering is more of a personal experience with the wood and the expereince of making something.  This may sound overly touchy feely for some, and maybe I just have crazy ideas ( I've been accussed of that), but I think that the decisions you make in how you make something is somehow related to why you make something.  I like machines and techknowledgy ( don't mind me I am a terrible speller)well enough, but the emotional experience is at least as important as the finished poduct for me.  This may be taking the example too far, but even if we could affort it, how many of us would own the fanciest cnc machines where a great deal of the "work" was automated.  At what point (somewhere between only hand forged hand tools and full automation) do we place ourselves and what does this say about who we are and where our interest / values lie.  I' am new to this web site and hope this is an ok discussion content.  There are people who are technically better then I am and maybe this is more important in woodworking.  But these are my quirky ideas.

    

   Peter