Norms recommendations on Kitchen Cabinet
JoePaisley
| Posted in General Discussion on
Norm authors an article in this month’s issue of Fine woodworking on kitchen cabinets. I find it interesting that he chooses to build the complete carcass out of 3/4″ plywood. He states, and I paraphrase, that cabinet builders use 1/4″ plywood backs and stretchers instead of solid tops. But since you are doing it yourself, you can build everything out of 3/4″ and have a much stronger cabinet.
I’m building Cherry cabinets for a lake home right now and 3/4″ backs and tops seems like overkill.
My challenge to Norm is, “stronger but is that necessary?” What would be a situation where you need much stronger cabinets than industry standards?
Any thoughts?
JoeP
Replies
Yes, I also think that a 3/4" back is overkill. No need for it. A 1/2" back in a rabbit works fine. Or, I generally use 1/4" ply in a dado and then put a 3" x 3/4" (solid stock) rail at the top of the 1/4" back so that I can attach the cabinet to the wall at any point I wish.
A 3/4" top is another matter. Yes, I would use either 3/4" ply for the top or some sort of 3/4" solid stock frame for the top. I generally like tile for counter tops so I would follow the ply with 1/2" durock and then the tile. Other types of tops may demand other substrates.
Edited 12/20/2007 2:58 pm ET by ChipTam
Joe:
I built complete 3/4" carcasses for my kitchen with 1/2" backs, i.e., no stretchers.
Apart from feeling very solid, I'm not sure what the benefits are. This was for myself and it didn't matter if I overbuilt it.
As a commercial matter, I'm not sure whether most buyers would care or be willing to pay extra.
Regards,
Hastings
Yeah 3/4" backs seems like overkill. I use 1/2" material in a rabbet and the cabinets are solid. I use 3/4" material for webs at the top primarily for economy. But depending on the countertop a solid top on the carcase might be a good idea to keep unwanted pests out.
With our old cabimets we had a problem with mice. I figured that they were getting into the cabinets because the countertop was not tight to the carcases. Our new cabinets have a countertop that doesn't have any gaps between it and the cabinets.
It depends on what the counter surface is going to be.
One of the first things you do, when you are getting ready to do concrete counter tops, is install 3/4-plywood backs and tops on the existing cabinets. So if I were building cabinets for concrete tops, I would definitely go with the 3/4.
The 3/4 for both tops and bottoms could possibly save one set up for dados.
On one set of cabinets your only talking about the differnce in cost of a couple of sheets of plywood. And, the backs and top don't need to be high quality stuff.
Heck, if you've used at least 2 bisquits or 3 pocket hole screws on each side to top or bottom edge joint, I think a good heavy cardboard is fine for the back. I recommend trying to find the really large boxes for appliances or big screen teevees to cut the backs from so that you don't have to mess with taping smaller stuff together. Tape to me is the sign of a half-a$$ed job. ;-)
Sampson,
I think you are dead on with the cardboard. The tape is really shoddy. For the best job you should shiplap the cardboard and tack it to the back with 3" hot dipped ring shank roofing nails.
-Nazard
WRONG, AMIGO!!!
You should try to use staples!The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
We use 3/4" backs and top rails in construction. Almost always pre-finished maple. Any additional counter substrates over that. The reason we went away from thinner material for backs was it eliminates the need for adding a mounting rail. It's also just easier to cut all the parts from one thickness of ply rather than switching up in the middle of a run. One less thing to keep track of in an often frenzied pace. The cost difference really isn't that significant unless we are talking about a lot of cabinets. It's not how everyone does it but it works for us.
-Paul
Wrong again. I use Goop in the handy one gallon container. Slap it on the back and top, press the cabinet to the soffit and wall......presto wall cabinet in place. Now for base cabinets I use Danish cord to tie them together and goop in the back of them.
Samson,
You wuss! C'mon, everyone knows the real professional laminates tissue paper for the backs! I'm really disappointed with you..............
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
everyone knows the real professional laminates tissue paper for the backs! Not me! I use 2X4's
I'm really getting nervous. I poked at Samson and he hasn't responded in over an hour. He must be loading BOTH barrels.
I think I'd better duck!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/21/2007 1:35 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Was that a poke? I didn't even feel it.
No offense to kitchen cabinet makers - it is a worthy profession and I like having nice kitchen cabinets - but I find featuring Norm in FWW screwing rough plywood carcases and bisquiting face frames sort of misplaced. It's not that I haven't done my share of straight ahead no nonsense carpentry and woodwork, or even that I'm not interested in good ideas for doing it well, but it just seems like strange content for FWW. As others have remarked, most kitchen cabinets are built with a life expectation of a decade or so. I tend to think of most FWW projects (even trim projects like wainscotting, mantels, doors, etc) as intended to be longer lived than that - not to mention finer in terms of joinery etc. Remember in your other thread where that FWW editor said something about trying not to join the birdhouse brigade as far as magazine content? 20 tips for building better kitchen cabinets seems to me kinda close to the birdhouse brigade. Maybe FWW ought to do an annual special issue called FWW Home Improvement Edition or FWW Handyman Tips for Fine Woodworking Hobbiests if they need a venue for this sort of content; Hell, I'd prolly buy it.
My kidding about cardboard stemmed from my reaction to the article, and wasn't intended to be a comment on the OP's straightforward question about how thick is really required. Questions like the OP's always remind me of the story of the Grumman Hellcat design in WW2 I read about where the engineers over-engineered the hell of that plane, so to speak (If 2 rivets will do, we're gonna use 4 etc.). Lots of pilots were damn happy about it too. As far as cabs, if I were screwing up some hanging cabs into studs through the back, I'd use 3/4 even if it wasn't technically necessary (in the real world, I'd use french cleats if the design permitted - and with the french cleats, the back itself could prolly be laminated tissue if you wanted )
Samson,
Yeah that quip about the birdhouse brigade kinda got me too. Especially when you learn that FWW did an article or two about you know what. There was even one on turned birdhouses.
As to the Norm thing, ¾" plywood is OK with me for kitchen cabinets, except for the backs where I think it is overkill in most applications. Actually the thicker parts makes joinery easier for me, but different folks float their boats in their own ways.
Believe it or not there's some good progress on the Put up discussion. Check back next month.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/21/2007 2:26 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Sure it might be considered overkill, but as you paraphrase, if your doing for yourself, why not?
If you're building it yourself, why not use real wood instead of ply and MDF? Genuine question here, I've never built a kitchen cabinet. Just want to know why you wouldn't use a real but inexpensive wood like poplar for those parts you won't see, and a nice hardwood for the parts you will?
Similarly with regards to that article, why not mould the rails and stiles rather than apply the molding afterwards all over the place? Seems like more work to do it that way.
To be honest, the whole article seems like a whole lot of work for something that looks like it could just as easily have come from Home Depot. It's all nice surface materials and manufacturing tricks, covering up cheap materials and joints. If you're going to make it yourself, why not invoke some real artistry and not just cost savings? I'm only referring to people building for their own home here as that seemed to be the intent of the article. I understand that for a commercial cabinet shop the bottom line is all-important.
Edited 12/20/2007 6:59 pm ET by perizoqui
The only parts of a kitchen cabinet that get seen are the fronts, and the side of the ends, that aren't butted up against a wall, or another cabinet.
You could build them out of solids, but the solids are not as dimensionally stable as the sheet goods, and probably cost more.
"If you're building it yourself, why not use real wood instead of ply and MDF?"
Wood movement. Ply doesn't -- solid does. If you build 'em with solid, it has to be frame & panel sides and, e.g., T&G for the back.
As for 3/4" tops, I see no reason. The vertical elements provide support for the countertops, not the cab top -- if you even have one. I usually use 1/2" for tops (if any) and backs.
I got the impression molding was applied so the rails & styles could be cut quickly on the TS without R&S router bits. Allows for a wider range of profiles too. Works for me.
I wouldn't go to the trouble & effort of building fine furniture for kitchen cabs, especially since their life is pretty short. (Not because they fail, but because the HO wants to re-do every 10 yrs or so.)
As far as the cabs in the article vs. cabs from HD, I guess you haven't been to HD for a while, huh? ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Speaking from ignorance (I didn't read the article yet), I believe Norm likes to use plywood for cabinets that is faced with pre-finished maple (at least he did on a big kitchen island project). If true, using the same product for all pieces in the cabinet carcass would make a lot of sense since he wouldn't need to buy some 1/2 or 3/8 just for the backs.
I build mine 3/4 sides top and bottom, 1/4" in a rabbit in the back with a 3/4 X 3" stretcher in the top back for strength and mounting
On the upper cabinets I put a stretcher both top and bottom. The top one was beveled at a 45.
I had the carpenter put up 2" X 6" horizontal behind the sheetrock and I put a stretcher at the top with a 45 to hang the cabinets.
It took about 3 hours to get all the cabinets installed. Hung and screwed together.
Are you talking about using a French Cleat? Its a great way to hang cabs. Nothing wrong with it. I just prefer to do it the way I do :>)
I have built several kitchens and you can by 1/4" and 1/2" prefinished plywood and I use it. It saves time on finishing the inside of the cabinets and the finish is flawless.
All the post here as I read it..
Norm statement was..
But since you are doing it yourself, you can build everything out of 3/4" and have a much stronger cabinet.
But since you are doing it yourself,.. I will assume he was saying NOT FOR PROFIT! BUT a strong cabinet that should last as long as YOU are alive to enjoy it!
Sorry, Just me.
FYI: We build euro cabinets, which call for full tops, instead of stretchers. We use 3/4" plywood for carcase ends, bottom, and top. We use 1/4" ply backs and a single nailer at the top on base cabinets, but we use 3/4" backs on uppers. We do this, because it allows us to fasten the upper anywhere, not just in the typical top and bottom nailer. If you compute the cost of the 3/4" back, it's less than the combined 1/4" back with two nailers, because labor is less since we're installing only one, instead of three pieces.
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Another right on in my opinion!
First, thanks to everyone that has posted for a living discussion about my OP. Gary, I like your approach of using 3/4" back on upper cabinets.
Physics say that base cabinets direct their weight through the sides into the floor. However, upper cabinets support their weight and the significant weight of dishes, glasses, etc through the back/nailers into the wall. Obviously, 1/4" with nailers is sufficent to hold the cabinets in place but speed of build says that 3/4" without nailers probably pays for itself, in your time or labor costs.
Brent
You're correct, Brent, it pays in labor saving, and as someone else said, the cost difference is truly nominal - in my market area, $0.46/s.f. Another benefit: the back is rigid enough to shim the cabinet on an out of plumb, and often wavy wall in order to make it plumb and in plane with its neighboring cabinets.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Gary,I've worked in a few cabinet shops and this is the first time I've heard of using 3/4" for upper backs. Kind of one of those "duh" moments.Makes a lot of sense and offers some good advantages. Not to mentions the labor savings which of course frequently quickly outpaces material costs.I will likely incorporate this into my cabinet method, thanks for sharing .
Also wanted to add that "finely crafting" a kitchen cabinet box is akin to doing the same for wall framing. There is no need for a mortise and tenon joining studs to plates in stick built construction. It needs to do what it needs to do.Cabinets almost always are attached to the building and gain most of their stability from this regarding racking. 1/4" is more than enough. Also the poster's comment about most cabinetry being nonpermanent is correct. Likely will only be there ten-fifteen years.You have to sink pretty low to build a base cabinet so poorly that it fails. And then I think it has to do more with joinery methods rather than materials given the stresses a base cabinet experiences once installed. i.e. 1/2" particle board stapled together is likely to fail. Add some glue and you MIGHT get away with it but I would never try it. I've seen shops that do and the customer will ooh and ahh when they see it. People notice finish, don't generally even acknowledge construction techniques or materials. Of course build any way you want but keep in mind an overbuilt cabinet isn't going to perform or appear any different than standard methods.
Cabinets almost always are attached to the building and gain most of their stability from this regarding racking. 1/4" is more than enough.
Let's remember that Norms focus is on the homebuilder in this article, not the professional cabinetmaker. I believe he was/is trying to present a working approach to the homwowner.
Also the poster's comment about most cabinetry being nonpermanent is correct. Likely will only be there ten-fifteen years.
I might ask what is wrong with building something of permanence? It seems to me that we have become a throwaway society regarding just about everything. Also, if and when these cabinets are replaced what happens to them? In most cases I've seen they tend to get recycled, or at least mine do.
We need to abandon that 20th century mentality of throwing things away just for the sake of style. Pooh, pooh, pooh, it's the age of recycling! I contend that 90% of everything that gets tossed into a landfill can and should be recycled. Yes, I work at a landfill.
Another observation I had about the article was if you remove the doors & drawers what do you have left? A bunch of boxes right? Along these lines I tend to think the the style fof cabinets is/can be reflected primarily in the design of the fronts, not the boxes themselves. To that end I maintain that you keep the boxes and replace/embellish the drawers/doors to create the desired style.
In regards to Norms kitchen, I think the legs for the island are an eyesore. They're too thick! They stand out like a sore thumb. Something akin to putting 6" x 6" butcher block legs on a Queen Anne style piece.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
By the time you figure the 2 nailers with the 1/4" back, you're not saving anything. I agree with you completely on that one. I build all my carcasses out of 3/4". Tops, bottoms, sides and backs. By the time I switch out 1/2" dado or router bit for 3/4" of the same, the time wasted with the setup isn't worth the 10 bucks I might save per sheet. Besides, I think that top and bottom nailer strips look like $hit.
I install my work in some homes that are pretty old, too, and the studs aren't always where you think they are. Having that 3/4" back to screw through anywhere is awfully nice at times.
Jeff
Edited 12/26/2007 5:39 pm ET by JeffHeath
Many years ago, when I was in high school, I worked in a custom cabinet shop. We used 1/4 ply for backs.
I'm now an engineer, with some experience in airplane stress analysis. In structures, knowing how the element resists forces determines the shape and size of the element. The main job of the cabinet back is to resist racking (which is a shearing action), and to provide an attach point. A 3/4 ply strip can provide the attach point. Shear stress is resisted quite efficiently with thin membrane-like shapes. In fact, 1/8" ply or hard board would be sufficient for the forces involved in kitchen cabinets, so the engineer in me wants to point out that even 1/4" ply is overkill. But, the craftsman in me says that a cabinet is not an airplane, and that there are other aspects to design other than structural efficiency.
But when it comes down to it, the 3/4" back will not provide any useable advantage.
As you say, a 3/4" back make's little sense on a base or pantry cabinet with a nailer. Our main reason for using it on uppers is to provide fastening points anywhere over the width and height of the cabinet. We can hide screws above shelves, and put three screws into a single stud to fasten a narrow cabinet. Also, in my 2400-sf shop, I have limited room to store plywood - units of 3/4" prefinished sheets go in a 3-tiered rack, and we store vertically the specialty sheets, as well as 1/4" prefinished material for backs, in a divided rack with a 4' x 8' footprint. We don't have room for or use much 1/2" plywood, except for drawer box material.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Hiding screws behind shelves on uppers is a good idea.
Most of the uppers we built were soffit-mounted (long time ago!), so we still used 1/4 for backs that weren't visible.
But, the craftsman in me says that a cabinet is not an airplane..But then again we woodworkers often fly with our work and sometimes crash!
I think he wants to use 3/4 becouse its easier to screw to. Also I build all my cabinet out of 3/4 becouse I do all inset doors and it helps keep my reveals when I install them.
My 2 cents, Lou
My first thoughts on the 3/4 material for the back were, 1. One dado setup and second was wasteful. Other thoughts were if using pocket screws for the carcass why not use them to secure the face frame since your in that mode? How many use biscuits to align face frames?
Mostly I wonder about using the prefinished material. During the glue up does one sand off the finish or depend on the pocket screws more. Seems the only glue surface is the butt end of the plywood.
Glen
Sir..First off I do not pretend to be a Cabinet Maker. My comments are only based on materials I use when making my own and several other cabinet projects I have made over the years. The largest was full cabinets for a 30 by 24 foot kitchen (My sister-in-law). Full cabinets on all walls and a large Island with seating.I almost always use 3/4 inch hardwood ply for the carcass. The face frames of solid wood. Shelves fitted with sliding dovetails.The reason. I use a router table and a Lock Miter bit for the cabinet top, bottom, and sides. The carcass backs are inset and housed in a groove. Non veneer ply filler at the top and bottom of the back inset (Flat surface for mounting) and a few triangular glue blocks.The lock miters make for very easy glue up and no panel alignment issues when clamping.Yes, cutting a lock miter can be a 'bit of a pain' for large panels but with high fence and feather boards is 'workable'. Very tall panels can be a issue when cutting the top and bottom profile. Yes, I have had to move the router table outside (not on a windy day)for 'roof' clearance on a few. I bet the neighbors thought I was nuts!I would suppose all of the cabinets could have been made from 1/2 ply but just not me. One half inch would surely be easier on the back and probably just as strong when assembled and glued!The only problem I have with a lock miter profile is keeping the 'sharp' edge that way when handling and storage of the panels until glue up time. I use some angled 2X4 set on the floor with a 45 degree groove to set the panels in and rest on the wall or something. Smaller panels I just stack.As for pocket screws I cannot say. I have never used them so I cannot comment other than I probably never will. Just not me.EDIT:As for finishing I find veneer ply easy to finish. Matching the solid wood to the ply is a different matter all together. I always struggle with finishing. I'd say use Milk Paint and be done with it!HAVE A GREAT NEW YEAR!
Edited 12/31/2007 10:15 am by WillGeorge
I have not seen the article you are referring to but there could be additional points to consider. Are these intended to be "Custom" "Semi Custom" or "Legacy" cabinets. The size of the materials is a factor but the quality of the materials can be a much greater factor. I did a kitchen (legacy work) with cabinets hung from the ceiling over an peninsula that needed the added structure of 3/4 backs. I did a bathroom with 3 vanities on feet, sides and front in hardwood, back 3/4' cab grade plywood, supporting 1-1/2" slabs of marble.
Now I work Habitat on Saturdays and we scale it back a little.
This is a classic case of building for yourself v. building for profit.
3/4 cherry ply for backs, tops and sides is expensive, but for yourself, only you can answer how much to spend. For a customer the cost is passed on.
Structurally, as noted, it's not necessary for uppers or lowers. Building for profit where speed is important means the money spent is more profitable when building multiples. A 1/2" ply back would be plenty strong for a little less money than 3/4". Personally I use 1/4" ply backs on uppers, hung on a french cleat, no visible fasteners thru the cab. On lowers, a front and rear stretcher ties the base cab together with no loss in strength. Again it depends on job size.
Norm's style, IMO, tends toward heavy mass and material- fine for French country furniture and the like but often unneeded for cabinetry.
Expert since 10 am.
I have always used 1/4 backs in a rabbet, glued and stapled. I have always used solid wood nailers.
Having read all these posts and replies, it got me to thinking...
If the cost of 3/4 vs 1/4 is $20-$30 per board and you need, say 7 boards for backs, we're talking an added cost of about $200 for the job.
If you don't have to pay for nailer stock... If you don't have to cut and fit nailers.. If you can use the same dado set-up to run your back rabbets... If you only have to have one supply of sheet goods... If in the end instead of having a pile of 3/4 scrap and a pile of 1/4 scrap you have one smaller pile of 3/4 scrap... If you have the added strength... If you have unlimited locations for screws... Add other minor reasons here...
My point is that, in the end, if you don't make up the whole $200 cost, you'll make up most of it and the difference becomes even more negligible. And, though there isn't really one good reason for doing it, the cumulative minor benefits add up.
Heck, I always used 1/4 for drawer bottoms until undermount hardware.
I don't build a ton of cabinets, but next time I think I will at least consider going all 3/4.
I work for a custom cabinet shop that does very high end work. the bid for the cabs may only be topped by the home automation guys. Quite a diference between a cabinet scribed to the wall and filler strip. Quite a difference between face frames fastened with a corner fastener and hot glue onto vinyl covered interiors, and 3/4 veneer glued and clamped to the entire carcase. We have never used biscuts and have never had a face frame seperate from the carcase. Might make it easier to align durring glue up though. My boss would think I was crazy if I suggested using prefinished ply on the interior.
I could go on a long time about differences between custom from scratch and even the best manufactured cabinets. Norms cabs are way above the store bought however you look at it .
I remember going to a 10 year old home one day where the builder installed cheap cabinets with two layers of 1/4 ply for an upper back. well the screws they used pulled through the back and the whole upper came down on the owner. We used 1/4 veneer plywood and a 3/4 X3 strecher for years with no problem. Now the boss has got a CNC router that cuts all the carcase parts and intigrates the 1/2" back into dadoes in the3/4" walls with no strecher. So far so good but I am not convinced that a Screw into 1/2 plywood has thestrength of a piece of 3/4 solid stock over a 1/4 back. or that any plywood has the pull through strength of solid.
One thing no one has mentioned is the extra weight of 3/4 vs 1/4. I have to lift and carry and install those things every day. I told the design guys that I figured every extra pound takes a minute off my working life.
Of course 3/4-inch backs add to upper cabinet weight, and that's why my helper and I work together installing them. That's also why we use 1/4-inch backs and 3/4 x 3-inch nailers on base and full height pantry cabinets - to lessen the weight we'll have to carry and lift. After using 3/4-inch for upper backs now for fifteen years, I wouldn't dream of using anything lighter. Maybe carrying that extra weight has actually ADDED to my 35-year working life span (I'm 62), rather than taking minutes off it.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Maybe the extra weight is no problem for the typical cabinet and if you have a helper that's certianly the case. My ususal routine is to have help getting the cabinets into the house and then I'm left to do the installation alone. I'm 53 and my boss is a hulking 35. I've had a 35 year working life so far and I need another 20 or so. Some of the cabiinets we build and install are all 4 men can carry and of course I have help eith those, but there is a lot inbetween. My point is that weight does matter. I think that cabinets should be built as light and with the least amount of material that will be structurally sound and maintain a high quality end result. I guess if I had a full time helper I might feel different. If 3/4 is absoultly necessary fine, can't be avioded. But it doesn't seem right to use a spike where a tack will do the job. Don't even want to get into the ecological discussion.
Well, I disagree, but I've already stated my reasons. Hope all continues to go well for you.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
jcrum,
Added weight yes , and imo no significant increased payload .
With all the Euro box builders squawking about all that wasted space behind face frame edges and returns , my concern is losing an extra 1/2" in depth for the entire space .
In free standing units the 3/4" back is very effective .
In standard 12" wall cabinets some plates and platters barely and don't fit now.
For those using flush inset doors the shelf depth would only be about 10 3/8" with a 3/4" back plus any scribe .
The boxes are much more difficult to spray with the back on and for one person the boxes will be heavier then normal during the process .
On some special applications thicker backs can work great ,the structural integrity of standard cabinetry won't suffer from using 1/4" backs .
dusty
I use 1/4" ply in grooves, top,sides,& base. my tops for base cabinets
are ply about 3", usually 2 for sink units & 3 for other base cabinets. they seem to support granite & marble very well I use a 1/8" rabit
on vertical sides to help assembly & attatch horizontal pieces with
pocket screws
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