I’m a newcomer to this forum and reasonably new to woodworking in general. For years I have watched Norm on NYW build project after project and thought about the day when I too could follow in his footsteps. Now the time has come but I find myself wondering about some of his methods – especially after reading books and watching videos by such people as Frank Klausz and Tage Frid. Norm seems to be very fond of using brads to secure parts but I find myself thinking that there has to be a more traditional (albeit more time consuming) means to the same end as I prefer to use only wood and glue for joinery with a minimum of hardware. I believe his methods are geared more towards production rather than a “purer” (for want of a better term) approach. So for the projects I choose to build I intend to redesign them to use dowels and other joinery techniques for those parts for which he uses brads. I realize this is an individual decision, but does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Ken
Replies
I don't mind using brads in areas that will be unseen. But in areas where the nailing surface will been in plan view I will look at other means of fastening. It depends most on what the surface is.
Scott C. Frankland
In many instances, his use of brads is mostly to stabilize a part for gluing. I don't really think of the brads as a joinery technique per se and, as mentioned above, it's best used in hidden places.
My little Porter Cable kit is very handy for building jigs, throwing together a shelf unit for the shop, making birdhouses and such.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Personally I think that peolpe should spend less time finding fault with Norm and his brad nailer and spend more time working on their own projects. As far as being a purist goes if you were to stop using a brad nailer then you would have to quit using power tools or better yet quit baloon framing buildings and go back to timber framing. Personally brad nailers don't bother me at all becouse they are way to small to be used structurally for any thing other than to use them as miniture clamps until glue has the time to do what it's suppose to. I've seen many,many posts about Norm and his brad nailer mainly becouse he is one of the most famouse woodworkers in fact every week after Norm gets finished with a project you can usually bet that there's going to be someone somewhere that has to let everyone know that they seen Norm do somthing wrong or at the very least they complain about his cursid brad nailer. To me Norm is a good carpenter as well as a relitivly good television personality but one thig that really bugs me as far as Norm goes it's not all his tools becouse I know the NYW is just a telivision set and Norm has his own that he built a few years ago when he built his new house. Also Its not the projects he builds becouse he does do an excellant job on the estetics of his projects the thing that drives me the most crazy probably like all of you and the brad nailer is that rediculouse pocket cutting jigg that he uses I mean them things are ugly no matter how hard he tries to plug the holes those stupid things stick out like a soar thumb. Well like all of you this is just my oppinion so all of you are welcome to dismiss it with what it's intended for; not a whole heck of a lot.
Sincerely Jim Clark
It wasn't my intent to criticize Norm's use of the brad nailer. In the furniture I've seen that has withstood the test of time for a couple centuries I've seen wooden pins and perhaps bolts. Some years ago my grandparents purchased an armoire in a Paris flea market and had it shipped back here. One of the curators of the Cleveland Museum of Art helped them to put it together when it arrived and dated it to 1760ish and the court of Louis XVI. I was fortunate enough to be able to help with the restoration even though I was rather young. But what really stood out to me was the way it was constructed. It was a massive piece standing nearly 8' tall x 15' wide and around 4' deep ... covered with panels of hand paintings and gold ormilou (sp?). I don't know what it weighed but it was not insignificant. It came apart into a number of component pieces that all fit remarkably tightly and well. There were no brads or other means of attaching pieces outside of thousands of small screws for all that gold ormilou. The cap piece was firmly attached with 4 large bolts and nuts but all the rest was done with wooden pins. When it was fully put together it was as solid as anything else I've ever seen. That was my first exposure to real heirloom furniture and it left quite an impression on me which is what prompted the original question.
If I spend the amount of time it takes to design and construct a piece of furniture and put the care into fitting each piece as carefully as my skills will allow, I would then obviously want the completed piece to last and I'm not so sure the use of brads would be the best means to that end for a couple reasons. First, I believe brads will inevitably be pushed out as the wood moves over time and secondly they leave evidence of their location - whether it shows or not I will know they're there. And what happens to the brads over time as moisture gets into the wood? So that is why it is my intention to design my pieces with more traditional joinery. I was not intending to criticize Norms methods. I was just curious as to other thoughts along this line.
My feeling, and all of my woodworking compatriots agree, is that Norm is a hack. His techniques are probably suitable for production work, where the focus is on getting the stuff out the door, but if what you're interested in is fine woodworking (and I assume that most people who read this forum are), then lose the brad nailer. Sharpen up your handtools, buy some more clamps, read Tage Frid & the other old-timers, and get busy. You'll learn a lot more about woodworking than you ever would watching NYW, and your life will be enriched immeasurably.
This is a very interesting (to me) post. I started woodworking in 1978 with nothing more than FWW as my guide. I bought and read all the Krenov books, the Dunbar book on restoring and using antique planes, and the books by Frid. By 1990, I was so depressed about my lack of ability to produce the exquisite Krenov style pieces that I virtually gave up wood working.
Then, I found Norm. I realized that woodworking is suppose to be fun. OK, I am not now nor will I ever be a Krenov, but at least I'm having fun. Although I confess that I have never used a brad nailer or other form of mechanical fastener, or than screws, I respect Norm simply for his ability to connect with woodworkers, most of whom have limited skill levels.
Over the past 13 years, I have immeasurably increased my skill level to the point where neighbors have asked me to built pieces for them. Had it not been for Norm, I would have had a tag sale for my tools years ago.
Dan T.
Norm maybe a hack in some peoples oppinions but more often then not more then A few peope admit that he's why they got into woodworking. I've read several of Norms books and it's evident that the man has a very hectic schedule but anytime he can make an appearence somwhere and get $2500.00 an hour and then that night be back taping TOH or NYWS and then later be home working in his own shop I say anything that saves a little time is well worth it. I also have a profound interest in the workings of the Shaker community and now in modern day the cosest thing to the Shakers is the Amish. Ive read in several publications that the Shakers would have the most modern and up to date tools that money could buy also now in the Amish community their work shops have air tools. It's admirable that most peolpe like to be purists but to what extent its not that our forfathers wouldn't have used the tools but the truth of the matter is you can't use whats not there. The technology just wasnt back then for them to have those kind of tools.
I have a rather extensive collection of hand tools as well as a pretty darn good collection of power tools and yes I also have several air tools but I've never made any accusations to anyone that I'd ever want to live back in the day of no power nor will I ever as much as I enjoy my modern day tools. To me if a person likes to build with all antique tools then cudos to them but to call somone a hack or say that somone isn't a purist just becouse they are fortunate enough and have enough wealth to afford nice modern tools just isn't fare. But then again thats what freadom of speach is all about.
Sincerely Jim Clark
Please,,,,,, try spell check. If you break your material into more easily read paragraphs we would all find reading your comments more enjoyable.
I don't like Norm's use of brads either, but I don't think fastening is the point as much as showing how things go together within the time allotted for a TV show. Where Norm uses a brad, one could just as easily use dovetails, dowels, countersunk brass screws with matching or contrasting plugs, etc. Other fastening methods just plain take too long for a TV show. If anyone watched me lay out, cut, and assemble a joint they would be asleep long before the first fundraising break.
I hope people watching NYW take Norm's work as a point of departure and not as The Right Way To Do It.
Bootch -- may I join you for dinner with Norm and Roy? I'll bring dessert.
1. Personal preference. Yours is fine with me.
2. Expediency. If I've got to get something done pronto .. a brad's as good as gold.
3. Mood. I use them when I feel like it.
-Ken
Well, now you all got my curiosity up. I've been following this discussion as it appears from time to time, and my question is: What IS wrong with brads? I've seen them used in antique furniture dated back as far the 1800's, maybe earlier, hand set brads of course, and in the private parts. (In other words out of sight)
I've even seen small cut nails used in some cases to secure joints. If it weren't for the brads or nails, some antique furniture would be in pieces on the floor because the glue that was used has long since dried out and let go.
I have a library table, built around the 20's. It has a plug style drawer with the front half blind dove tailed to the sides, the drawer bottom was slid in to place and of course some brads were used to secure it to the back of the drawer. Well, the glue has dried out and let go from the dove tails and you can completely disassemble the drawer. as long the brads are in place and the drawer is in it's space, it stays together just fine, the dove tails are doing their job, but it's the brads that keeps the bottom from sliding out when the drawer is pulled opened.
So... What's wrong with using "some brads" when needed?
Edited 4/10/2003 4:40:57 PM ET by PAULGEER1
As a matter of fact nobody baloon frames any more now it's all western or platform framing.
Philip
Wop,
I'm not sure were you live but if you build with 2by material for studs and set trusses on top of them then yes you are balloon framing infact I'd almost go as far to say that 85% of buildings today are ballon or stick framed. If I had my druthers I'd just assune have a new building with todays technology but built with old timber framing mortice and tennon joints with "6x6" beams.
Sincerely,
Jim Clark
You sould look up the difference between baloon and western framing. A good dipiction is in Architectural Graphic Standards of the American institute of Architects,published by John Wiley& sons. IN the Eighth Edition it is on page 280-281. As you will see baloon framing does not use trusses and has continuous studs running between floors. A system which is no longer commonly used. Baloon framing has not been used much since WW II, If you want to see some good baloon framing look at Victorian Architecture . Both baloon and western are stick framing in contrast to timber framing but baloon framing is more costly in labor and therefore is not used.
Where I live we use reinforced concrete and masonry with only ocassionally a timber roof (only on non commercial building). Stick framing in my opinion is cheap trash building but in the states it is predominate.
Philip H. Allen , Registered Architect
I live in California and see a lot of the "cheap trash" you speak of. I feel most of it is the result of poor design and cut corners more than any inherent flaw in stick framing. On the other hand, people do like to have a roof over there heads and they buy what they can afford, which,sadly is not generally a masonry structure with a timber roof.
Glendo.
I guess I can agree with that. My grandmother had a Victorian house in Georgia built just after the war of northern aggression by her grandfather with great framing in oak. Yes strange but true he framed in oak I went up in the attic to see it my self, my guess is he used the wood that he had availiable at the carriage factory he owned. The house was sturdy as a rock no vibrations in the floor joists when you walked through the house, great work. The only down fall is it was balloon framing with no fire breaks in the walls. I think the house is still there I haven't seen it in over ten years.
Philip
I think "traditional" might be relative. If woodworkers back in the day had access to air compressors and brad nailers, they might resort to their use to get the job moving along just as Norm does. Look at it this way: if you only had a hammer, you might be less likely to tack together glued parts because it wouldn't be nearly as easy and convenient as pulling a trigger.
Take a tip from me: just turn it into a drinking game. One swig for each utterance of "brad" by Norm. Sometimes, he'll really go to town with the brad nailer and you'll be nice and toasty long before he mentions "polyurethane."
Is the Pope Catholic?
Without those opinions on construction we wouldn't have need for a forum.
I used to bite my tongue in my engineering job at an electrical factory when one of my cohorts used to talk about the furniture he used to knock out. Every lunch he'd launch into a construction description. Man did he produce. If volume was the issue to measure he was the best. However he used a staple gun to fasten miter cut frames on plywood drawer fronts and facade must have been his middle name. Glue, staples, and wood filler on plywood was the mantra of his workshop.
To his credit his wife has a house full of honey oak...stuff. At first blush it is impressive, in the long run I envision slammed drawers falling apart and the whole thing looking dated.
Timeless quality is your own measure. Your design reflects you. If you produce two things in your life then that may be enough rather than filling the world with landfill material 30 years out.
One large issue in this quest for perfection is that we produce unfinished symphonies. I have a collection of things that didn't quite measure up. Some day I need to sprout the stones and finish them. I have 4 toy boxes that were going to be more labor than they were worth. That is one, there are many more.
My point on the above rant is that making merde reflects poorly on you as a person. If to no one other than yourself.
Realistically metal fasteners do have a place. Countersunk finish nails for the face frame of a cabinet are just as reasonable as a dowel when the frame is glued onto the plywood carcase. Screws hold together parts in glueing that would otherwise get marked to hell by clamps.
I like to think in terms of longevity. What if... The glue died.... The dowels broke, the tenon sheared, what if...something happens. Then what happens to my construction. Would it be saved? I generally don't let any one fastening system be the end all of the assembly. Joints help the glue and vice versa. Even metal fasteners have their place.
Now, Norm can eat at my house anytime. He's a god of the airwaves and a real nice person to boot. Would I build everything like he does? Would I build everything like Roy Underhill? No, that is what we'd talk about at dinner.
Welcome to the forum!
Good post. Got room for one more at your dinner with Norm and Roy?
Does it amuse anyone other than me that we can use computers to debate Norm's use of power tools? "What a country!"
Fred
Would that be an evening!
I've always gotten a thrill out of seeing Roy Underhill build something real time. Seeing him breathless dripping sweat on his brow after horsing a brace and spoon bit into an oak chair seat is a sight. That and his treadle lathe always bring a smile and wonder to my mind.
Norm is Normal construction. From brads to glue on endgrain I see the reasons and nod the application. Generally his is an expedient solution that meets 95 % of the abuse in the world.
In my industry many electrical control panels are designed to a print and a performance specification. (stick with me this will make sense) The problem is that the designer / engineer gets a better idea and changes it in production... The changes never stop nor does the project get completed. We call it Creeping Elegance. As wonderful as the end product could be, it never gets completed. I touched on that in my first post. In fact WH Brady makes amusement labels that say "Sometimes you need to shoot the engineer and start production"
Norm and Roy are the icons of do it NOW!
I'm thinking Steaks, salad, and mashed potatos! You suppose they drink beer?Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled