Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 12, 2009 12:40am | #1

   Where did you purchase the plywood?  Is it rotary or plain sliced?  How long is "an extensive time" before wiping?  Did you use anything else--such as "conditioner"? 

1. 
   wink58 | Nov 12, 2009 01:47am | #3

    

   Thanks for responding,  I didn't do a good job with providing info.Oak plywood purchased from Lowes.  Wood was ;not preconditioned, I believe wood is rotory slice;d.  Extended time was one hour.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 12, 2009 04:12am | #5

   I'm afraid you may have a problem with cheap Big Box plywood, especially if you sanded it.  It's not at all impossible to have gotten into areas of glue penetration in the super thin veneer.  Plywood these days shouldn't be sanded, just cleaned off, or if sanding is needed just light hand sanding with nothing coarser than 220 grit.   

   Also, an hour is almost always too long to leave a wiping stain, 15 minutes is more like it.   The long wait may well have allowed some areas to have more completely dried so the excess didn't wipe off those areas leaving them dark, and did wipe off of others.  If one application with all the excess wiped off isn't dark enough, then you need a different approach.  Multiple coats, or long "penetration" times don't go very far at all in achieving a darker finish. 

    

1. 
   wink58 | Nov 12, 2009 03:58pm | #8

   This has been a great learning experience.  I  only sanded with 220,  Used a fifteen minute  set time for the first coat.  When the spots appeared,  I tried the one hour period.  Ias you pointed out it didn't  work either.  Hence my plea for help.  Based on what I've read, its probably glue bleed,I will never accept "big box" plywood again.  

   Thanks to you and all others who took time to give me the benefit of their knowledge and experience.  It's what I've come to expect from Knots.

1. 
   Eef | Nov 12, 2009 09:45pm | #11

   wink,in the past, i have been guilty of buying home depot plywood so's to save a bit of money for a bid job. never, never again. not only does it not finish well, as you're discovering, but the crap warps to beat the band often AFTER it's been ripped and crosscut and this makes cutting any joints difficult as well as dangerous.
   i would love to imagine that if we all pulled together and refused to buy that ####, that maybe some upgrade in quality might happen.
   eef

2. 
   wink58 | Nov 12, 2009 11:26pm | #12

   Amen!!!

3. 
   spotcheck | Nov 13, 2009 01:39am | #13

   Yep - I'd think it will cause a quality upgrade, and I'm confident the Easter Bunny will bring you 24k gold eggs next year - but not Russian Faberge eggs - that's not rational.

   It's a race to the bottom - who has the best $$ number in the Sunday supplement.  You get what you pay for.  They are great at what they are trying to do - ya just gotta know where you want to land on that curve for any given purchase.

4. 
   Dave45 | Nov 14, 2009 06:12pm | #14

   I quit buying HD plywood 3-4 years ago and don't expect that they've noticed - or would care if they did. They're aimed at a different market and I ain't going there. - lolI've had a few customers ask why I won't use HD ply, and my answer is that it would probably cost them more if I did. The hassles of working with the stuff will raise the labor cost more than the savings in materials. One (almost) customer wanted to push the point and I decided not to bid his job. I want customers to tell me WHAT they want - not HOW to do it. - lol

2. 
   piker | Nov 15, 2009 01:30am | #15

   Have run into the same problem even with our domestic oak plywood. The face veneer is so thin (& oak fairly porous) some of the glue migrates to the outside surface. This particular sheet of 1/4" was used for door panels & was not stained but had a clear lacquer sprayed finish. Ended up making new doors & used those doors on bedside cabinets at our cottage (dark bedroom, away from direct sunlight!)

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 15, 2009 10:25pm | #16

   Much hardwood plywood is 1/40th of an inch these days. It's the same for US and Canadian, not just far eastern. I heard that it may get even thinner in the future.Howie.........

2. 
   piker | Nov 15, 2009 10:35pm | #17

   I actually had a telephone conversation with the CEO/Pres. (whatever) of Columbia Forest Products in Canada a couple of years ago (posted here during a previous plywood quality discussion). He acknowledged my measured thickness of the face veneer & his only defence was that they had to stay competitive price-wise with the Chinese imported stuff. It ain't gonna get any better!

2. 
   Dave45 | Nov 12, 2009 08:12am | #6

   Can you post some pictures of the bad spots? I'm betting that you sanded through the oak veneer - or sanded it so thin that it's almost transparent.Thin veneers are a real hassle in all plywoods and are worse in the stuff from Lowes or HD. Even the good stuff I use from a cabinet hardwood supplier won't take much sanding. I'm real careful as I work with it and a qick pass with 180 or 220 is all the sanding it gets.

2. 
   doorboy | Nov 12, 2009 12:43am | #2

   A couple of things could be going on. First, we need to know the wood species. Second, how far did you take the sanding? Third, is the stain you were supplied new or old? Did you thoroughly mix it?
   There's lots of help here if we just knew a little bit more.
1. 
   wink58 | Nov 12, 2009 01:49am | #4

   Thanks for your response

   Wood is oak plywood.  Sanded to 220, Used New thoroughly stain.

3. 
   ring | Nov 12, 2009 08:27am | #7

   Oak ply made with thin veneer is notoriously susceptible to bleed-thru of the glue, that is, the adhesive used between the layers easily penetrates the open pore structure of the oak and sometimes even comes right through to the outside of the thin oak veneer. It is this dried glue that has effectively sealed the oak in spots, and wont allow stain to take normally.

   I know of 3 ways to avoid this problem, but the first 2 assume that you have control of the veneer press work.

   The only remedy I know of that will work for your store-bought panels is to avoid staining altogether. Create an alternative finish using tinted lacquer to get approximately the same finished color. (I know it doesn't look the same. Welcome to industrial finishing.)

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

4. 
   oldusty | Nov 12, 2009 06:04pm | #9

   Just out of curiosity are the light spots that would not take the stain continuous strips of split veneers that look different or is the problem only part of each strip of veneer ?

         Also in the past every now and then some oil or other contaminate can get on the panels from the mill and prevent even staining.

            regards              dusty

1. 
   wink58 | Nov 12, 2009 08:54pm | #10

   just a large spot in the center of a piece of veneer.

5. 
   oldusty | Nov 16, 2009 05:45pm | #18

   piker ,

         Makes you wonder how much more does it cost to produce the veneers 15 thou thicker ?

      I toured a Columbia mill and was very impressed with the quality I saw.

        regards     dusty

1. 
   piker | Nov 16, 2009 06:46pm | #19

   I wish their quality product made it to the retail outlets in my area. Even their "cabinet" grade of 3/4" (at over $100 a sheet) isn't any different than the "factory" grade they used to sell 10 years ago. Factory grade is what they put on sale around here & it's usually not domestic but imported from China. Nasty stuff. Had a tour of a local wholesaler's warehouse (after reaming  out local building supplier about crappy plywood they had - Columbia) - sales person was very obliging & knowledgeable about all their products. They carried grades of plywood that never get to building suppliers/lumber yards - don't know who buys it. Asked him if it was for the large cabinet manufacturers in the area & he said "hell no, they all used MDF with a face veneer"! I guess using only 8 - 10 sheets a year (retired after 35 yrs. in the electronics industry but have had a shop & built cabinets/furniture for 35 yrs.) I'll just keep "making do" & get better at patching/hiding/disguising, etc. Maybe the Chinese stuff will improve.

   PS - When I got the phone call from the head honcho at Columbia he was under the impression I was a factory! Suprise. Still, he was a good guy to talk to - no help though.

1. 
   oldusty | Nov 16, 2009 08:00pm | #20

     piker ,  Who knows , they may export the best products they make

            you may have to get them back from China , I hope not .

     It is interesting that the Chinaply is not sold in China , health risks apparently.

       For many years maybe still the finest Alder saw logs were called export quality and Japan apparently made nice fax paper out of them.

     So it may be similar the product comes from close but is not distributed close.

          Columbia makes some nice stuff , they have many grades of the same thing often .

              regards       dusty,boxmaker

1. 
   ring | Nov 17, 2009 08:36am | #22

   Hi Dusty,Columbia makes many different grades of each species of ply, and they will even make you whatever you wish... if you're buying it by the container. Two years ago I was in negotiation with them about importing a 20' container-load of 3/4" ply made up to my spec, and the prices weren't bad, but it's only relevant if you're buying in bulk. In the end I couldn't justify the stockpiling of such a large quantity, and the recession put a lid on the whole idea. But any mid-size or large manufacturer is not getting his ply sheets from HD or the local yard. All these bitter experiences regarding poor quality ply on the market are the result of companies appealing to the homeowner/hobbyist market. There's good quality stuff to be had but not for small players.David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

2. 
   hnewman | Nov 25, 2009 04:09pm | #23

   So, what are the pro's and con's of veneer faced MDF? Other than cost, I would guess its a better product all around. But, it seems like the veneer glue could still be a problem.

1. 
   piker | Nov 26, 2009 02:33am | #24

   Considering that in kitchen cabinet construction there are only a few exposed ends where the face veneer is visible, large cabinet companies should be able to select decent (no glue blled-through) panels. Don't know if glue bleed-through in the face veneer of MDF panels occurs or not.

    

1. 
   oldusty | Nov 26, 2009 05:56am | #25

     piker and All ,

              The actual quality of the veneer is what is important here not necessarily the substrate being mdf or particle board or veneer core .

       There are different grade veneers that make faces and backs also .

         There are different grade veneer cores as well .

        Low quality along with opened grained more ring porous species will contribute to the natural tendency to what we call calendar through especially when they may be 1  40th of an inch in thinness .

              If you are buying an ungraded panel at the big box or if you buy from a cabinet shop contractor supply place the options will vary .When we pay for a graded panel we trust our eyes no matter what they are usually mostly very good , for 85 - 100 bucks a sheet you should be able to use all of it .

         It can happen from any mill , but for most it would be an exception not the normal but from some that is imported all bets are off  .

                            regards        dusty

6. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 16, 2009 08:08pm | #21

   Wouldn't 1/40th be on the thicker end of veneer on lots of plywood now.  Seems that way at least, but I haven't measured any.