All,
I’m doing a Watco finish on some cherry and need some more product. The last can purchased lasted several years. Don’t know if there’s a shelf life but I’d like to make my own stuff in smaller batches.
I thought I’d try a Maloof type mixture of BLO, Mineral Spirits and Varnish…equal parts..the recipe calls for Alkyd varnish, non-polyurethane. I bought Behlens rock hard varnish, is that okay? The description on the can did not say Alkyd..
Also, do you think its okay to use this mixture over the Watco for the next three applications? thanks
Edited 5/14/2005 6:09 am ET by BG
Replies
I really like the "make-your -own" wipe on finishes, and have used them on a wide variety of projects (interior and exterior).
Many years ago, I started using this technique when I found the same Maloof recipe you are referring to. I did the same search for an alkyd varnish, but I subsequently found out common poly works just as well.
I also started playing around with the proportions -- I think Maloof originally called for equal parts of pure tung oil, BLO, and varnish (but I would have to look it up).
Anyway, my point is -- any oil mixed with any varnish, then thinned to wiping consistency with mineral spirits, will give a nice finish. All of the advantages of the oil, with a slighly harder sheen that comes with varnish. I settled on rough proportions of 1/4 varnish, 3/4 oil (then thinned) -- but only because I liked the look.
I would suggest you add the Behlen stuff to your Watco oil (which is basically BLO), and then try a swipe of it on a scrap to see if it needs to be thinned. I would start with a mix of 1/4 Behlen to see if you like the look.
No reason any of these mixtures won't work just fine over your first coat of Watco -- just rub it down first.
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Nikkiwood,
Thanks, and yes, Maloof called for 'Pure Tung Oil' in his equal parts mixture of tung, varnish and BLO. But, as you suggest, I've seen variations in the quantities of each elsewhere.
I tried some on maple and it seems to look and work okay...not sure what I'm looking for... maybe I'll know it when I don't achieve it...lol
>>Maloof type mixture of BLO, Mineral Spirits and Varnish...equal parts.
That is not the "Maloof" mixture. It is, in fact the mixture to make a Watco type finish. You can use any varnish whether poly varnish or standard varnish. It will make no practical difference.
The Maloof Finish is equal parts of BLO, pure tung oil, and varnish. It is a more highly oil based finish than the Watco.
Howie,
I think the BLO, mineral spirits, varnish combination came from an article by Bob Lancon....it's inbedded in his instrutions on how to apply Watco Oil...and probably is more like Watco.
The last time I used pure Tung Oil (about 25 years ago) it took forever to dry...if it has..
Watch out if you use the "rock hard finish". I put it on some walnut without testing it first and found it to be too thick when it dried. Had to sand it a lot before I could be OK with it. Maybe thinning would help, but it's like a two or three coat buildup in one application. My guess would be it's too heavy to incorporate into the Maloof formula.
Jim,
Thanks for the heads up on that. I did apply the diluted mixture (1/3 ea. varnish, spirits, BLO) today, sanding it in with 600 grit and wiped it down afterwards....that could be my last coat if it looks good...I'll know tomorrow. As a consistency, it felt thinner than the Watco...but my Watco can is about 3 years old.
Is there a varnish you would recommend?
Edited 5/14/2005 9:35 pm ET by BG
<<<"Is there a varnish you would recommend?">>>I think any varnish will work -- but I generally use a poly (only because it easier to find these days). Personally, I'm partial to Ben Moore Low Lustre Polyurethane, but I also like Zar products. I don't use high gloss stuff, but only because I prefer a finish that "glows" rather than "shines."********************************************************
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Nikkiwood,
Based on your comments and Jim's warning I switched my formula to a 1/4 varnish mixture...
Just remember, one of the great things about making your own wipe-on finishes is that you can fiddle around with the formula without any deleterious or irreversible consequences. I have come to especially like it for any outdoor project. My favorite is a mixture of two Minwax products that I stumbled across in a local HD -- an oil called "Clear Shield" and their Spar Urethane. Both contain UV inhibitors, and if you keep the varnish part below 1/4, the finish just kind of wears away in time. You can then rub it down and reapply the concoction. A film finish by iteself might last a little longer, but then you have to strip it off before you can refinish the piece.********************************************************
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
I'm no finishing expert -- just happen to have bought and used Behlin's Rock Hard Finish for a grandfather clock that needed a gloss finish. Actually, my preference for most projects is either oil or a "soft" poly or varnish. The Rock Hard Finish is what I would describe as "thick and hard". It's touted for table tops and other surfaces that get hard wear. I also think it's probably for folks that don't have much finishing experience. Before I could tell what was happening on that clock case, it hardened into a heavy, very glossy coat. I had to work it all down with abrasives and steel wool, then apply a dilute solution and let dry for a couple of days. Finally, I rubbed that coat down with abrasive pads and put on a coat of wax. The completed case now looks about right with a soft glow, but I won't use the "rock-hard" again. (It was recommended by a guy at at the Woodcraft store.) Therefor, I won't offer an opinion in answer to your question except to echo the above remark that most any leading brand of varnish should be OK for the Maloof-style finish. General Finishes has a nice line as do Behlin, Minwax and others. Because poly isn't always the choice of professional finishers, I'd do some research on that before using it.
Try asking the question here during the week and see what comes up.
JimMacMahon,
It's interesting, Woodcraft had recommended the Behlens to me too...'the closeist to pure varnish" is what he said. I've used the Seal-A-Cell from General in the past, that is fairly heavy but has tung oil and, perhaps, more Maloofish. What I ould never quite figure out is why is it necessary to put Arm-A-Cell over the Seal-A-Cell...they're both varnish mixtures.
At any rate, maybe I'm being to cheap but I'm trying to limit the number of cans of mystery stuff in the cabinet. Just the basics...schellac flakes, oil mixture, lacquer and varnish along with alcohol, BLO, mineral spirits, and 15 different kinds of wax...none of which work very well....lol
Regarding wax, it takes some experience with it to get the luster (lustre?) you want. Some need to dry thoroughly before buffing, some not so much. Never only one coat; always buffing -- the more the better in order to blend the wax over the surface and give it a polish. I find the harder waxes, like Renaissance brand which contains a lot of carnuba, requires some practice. Also, the surface of the wood needs deatailed prep work or sealing before the wax will look good. Also, wax isn't really more than a cosmetic surface as far as I'm concerned although it does have a small degree of protection -- meaning the wood needs to be sealed well with shellac or thinned varnish before waxing. Incidentally, my daughter, who is a museum curator, introduced me to Renaissance Wax as that is what is used a lot by the museum conservators, so I guess there's some protection from environmental sources. Have you tried aerosol lacquer? It's pretty fail-safe for small projects. Behlen and Deft are two brands I've used successfully.
Edited 5/15/2005 1:44 pm ET by JIMMACMAHON
JimMacMahon,
Actually, last week was the first time I applied wax that gave me a good result...at least 'good' relative to previous attempts. I put a fair amount of mineral spirits on the 0000 steel wool and a small amount of minwax finish wax...rubbing fairly hard the ash piece with shellac finish. It buffed out better when it started to haze over...not before or after that point. I don't know but I suspect the mineral spirits allow for ####thinner application of the wax...hence the better result. I've heard about the Renaissance, that is a strong endorsement(your daughter), I'll check it out.
I've only used the Deft brushing lacquer...I like it for certain situations. Thanks
>>why is it necessary to put Arm-A-Cell over the Seal-A-Cell...they're both varnish mixtures.They are different.Seal-A-Cel is an oil/varnish mixture. It's very similar to other oil/varnish mixtures like Watco Danish Oil, Minwax Tung Oil Finish, etc. You can tell oil/varnish mixtures from their application instructions. You wipe it on then wipe it off. Oil/varnish mixtures are very soft and flexible finishes due to the high oil content. They are absorbed into the wood leaving the look and feel of the wood and mimic true oil finishes like BLO and pure, 100% tung oil.Arm-R-Seal is a thinned polyurethane varnish. It is like any of the wiping varnishes currently marketted like Formby's Tung Oil Finish, Minwax wiping varnish, etc. Wiping varnishes are simply a standard varnish or poly varnish that is thinned highly to allow it to be wiped on. With wiping varnishes you wipe it on and you do not wipe it off. You can make your own simply by thinning your favorite poly varnish 50/50 with mineral spirits. When the thinner evaporates, you are left with a film type finish, only it is a thinner film. But, it's a standard varnish or poly varnish finish.The reason for overcoating Seal-A-Cell is that the Seal-A-Cell finish is fairly soft and fairly easily marred. Overcoating it with a film finish simply makes it more durable. Put Minwax Wiping Varnish over Minwax Tung Oil Finish, or Watco Wiping Varnish over Watco Danish Oil and you have the same finish system as Seal-A-Cell overcoated with Arm -R-Seal.We're not talking rocket science here but marketing claims are designed to confuse us.Howie.........
Howie,
That is very helpful information, thanks. I never would have understood that from reading the online literature.
Here is something I wrote for a woodworking club newsletter. It may help understand some "oil" finishes.True tung oil comes from the nuts of a tree in China--and some other parts of the world. A product that is a true tung oil will have a label that says either "pure" or "100%". If it doesn't say that on the label, IT ISN'T TRUE TUNG OIL. Forget about all the other baloney and look for one of those two words if you want to use a true tung oil. If the label contains any other chemicals, except a thinner, you are not getting a true tung oil."Tung Oil Finish" is a marketing expression for products that the manufacturer thinks will give you a finish like the finish you get from a true tung oil. These "Tung Oil Finishes" may or may not contain some true tung oil, but most do not contain any true tung oil. Their only claim to the use of the word "tung" is that it claims to give you the appearence of finish that results from tung oil. You're buying a "faux tung oil finish".There are two types of "tung oil finishes". One is mixture of varnish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits (called an oil/varnish). The exact mixtures are proprietary but 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3 will get you real close. Some manufacturers add a dollop of drier to speed up the drying. This same mixture is frequently also called "Danish Oil" because it gives a finish that resembles the finish used on much of the "danish style" teak furniture imported in the 50's and 60's. It closely mimics a true oil finish but the addition of the varnish resins gives it more durability and protection. Here are some oil/varnish mixtures:(*)
Deft Danish Oil
General Finishes' Sealacell
Behlen Danish Oil
Maloof Finish
Behr Scandinavian Tung Oil Finish
Minwax Tung Oil Finish
Minwax Antique Oil Finish
Velvit Oil
Watco Danish Oil
McCloskey Tung Oil Finish (contains pure tung oil, not linseed oil)The second "tung oil finish" is one made from varnish and mineral spirits. The approximate ratio is 1:1. This is really just a thinned varnish just like the stuff sold as "wiping varnish". When one two or three coats are applied, it also mimics the finish produced by a true oil but it is harder than the oil/varnish above because it does not have as much oil. It is slightly more protective than the oil/varnish type or tung oil finish. For all intents and purposes it is a varnish finish.Here are some thinned varnishes:(*)
Minway Wiping Varnish
Watco Wiping Varnish
Formby's Tung Oil Finish
Zar Wipe-on Tung Oil
Val-Oil
Hope's Tung Oil Varnish
Gillespie Tung Oil
Waterlox
General Finishes' Arm R Seal
Jasco Tung OilOne way to tell whether the product is an oil/varnish or a wiping varnish is to read the application instuctions. Oil/varnishes are applied, then given some time to set, then wiped dry. Wiping varnish products are wiped on an left to dry (no wiping off).For either of the above, you can mix your own using your own proportions, can it and sell it as "My Greatest Tung Oil Finish". Then announce a new product with slightly different proportion and call it "My Greatest Danish Oil Finish". We're not talking rocket science here.Finally, I'm not saying that any of these products are not good. In fact, they are a more protective and durable finish than any pure oil finish. They are what they are and can give you a good finish when properly applied.(*) Thanks to Bob Flexner "Understanding Wood Finishes"Howie.........
Hello all,I'm new to this...could someone tell me what "BLO" is? I followed everything else but dont recognize that acronym.Thanks,Karl
BLO Barbie Liberation Organization :-)
BLO Base Level Operations
BLO Below
BLO Binary Large Object
BLO Blower
BLO Boiled Linseed Oil (finishing oil applied to wood and metal) !
BLO Boston Lyric Opera
BLO Bounded Linear Operator
BLO Butt Line Zero ???
http://www.acronymfinder.com/
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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OK...that answers that....gotta wonder what the heck "Butt Line Zero" is??? DONT ANSWER THAT!! It's probably a new diet plan!Thanks for the info!Karl
Here's what I found
Butt Line - Edge view of a vertical plane passing through a structure, on or parallel to the longitudinal plane of symmetry. "BL Zero" seems to be used in avionics. BLO probably referrs a vertical plane that slices a flying machine in half from nose to tail. Pilot and co-pilot would be on either side of the line...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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Have attached the Word document with the mixing/application of a very good oil mixture. Came from an instructor at Cerritos College who taught chair design and construction. Has his own "studio" in Long Beach, CA--when you charge as much as he does for custom furniture it is no longer a shop but a studio. I do not go through all the steps as outlined but streamline the process. Many fellow students swear by the last step of boiling in the carnuba wax but this is dangerous to some degree given the oil mixture includes mineral spirits. One thing to remember is the mineral spirits will boil off after some time so you need to add more mineral spirits otherwise the finish sets up a bit fast before you can complete the wipe down.
Instead of downloading the word document, here is the text...
MarkOil FinishStep 1—Penetrates: 10 oz. Turpentine
6 oz. Spar Varnish (Boat Kote by McCloskey or Captain’s by Z Spar)
8 oz. Boiled Linseed Oil
8 oz. Raw Tung Oil1st coat—Brush on finish & leave for ½ hour. Brush on finish again & wipe off.2nd & 3rd coats—2-3 days between coats to allow for proper cure time. Brush on & wipe off.Step 2—Seals: 8 oz. Turpentine
8 oz. Spar Varnish
8 oz. Boiled Linseed Oil
8 oz. Raw Tung Oil2-3 coats—Brush on finish & wipe off. Wait 2-3 days between coats.Step 3—Protects: 4 oz. Turpentine
4 oz. Spar Varnish
4 oz. Boiled Linseed Oil
4 oz. Raw Tung Oil
Into this mixture melt in about 1/3 cup pure carnuba wax. Melt in the wax in a double boiler. May use a 3 lb. & 1 lb. coffee cans for this process over a hot plate.
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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Russ,
Thanks for the formulas. I suspect the mention of the coffee can suggest it be heated outside just in case.
Exactly, poor mans double boiler. Water in bottom of larger can, then oil/wax mixture in the smaller can so you do not have direct heat on the oil/wax mixture. Portable electric hot plate to heat things up.
One thing our finishing instructor recommended is once you apply the oil mixture you rub it in with 1,200 grit wet/dry paper--you end up with a much, much more silky smooth finish. You are somewhat making a slurry of the oil mixture and a small amount of the wood dust that fills the grain slightly--not a pure filling compound--far from it. When I have followed this process on Mahagony, Cherry, and even White Oak I have found the final finish super smooth. Not that much sanding with the 1,200 grit--just a few passes so we are not adding that much more effort into the process and you are eliminating the process of using 0000 steel wool between coats.
Russ,
Yes, I work a sanding progression through the applications. Starting with 400 grit on the second application, I go to 600 and finally 1000 on the last ..which I just applied. What I'm no good at is waiting for the oil to dry...like a kid with a bandaid, within 24 hrs. I'm getting antsy to move to the next step...sigh. I'd buy some Japan Dryer but I suspect I'd be tempted to abuse it...lol.
Russ,
Interesting formula. Two questions: Time between application and wiping off and what is the sanding/leveling schedule between coats?
Doug
TO: Howie & Russ
Thanks to both of you for that good and useful information.
********************************************************
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Gentlemen, I give up. What is BLO? Thanks
Mac,
BLO = Boiled Linseed Oil..comes in a can
Thanks for the education on BLO.
A couple of weeks ago I attended a location craft fair. One of the exhibitors was showing/selling furniture, which had the best finish I have ever seen. I asked him what he used. He gave me the following:
Minwax's Helman Spar Varnish and Watco Oil 50/50 mixture. About 3 coats sanding between each. What do you folks think? Has anyone tried it. or heard of it?
Mac.
My guess is the finish you saw at the crafts fair is similar to what has been discussed here and the formulas Russ posted. I'm not familiar with the Minwax Helman Spar Varnish, if Howie is monitoring this thread perhaps he can clarify further.
Basically, Watco is an oil/varnish product. You can easily mimic it by mixing equal parts of your favorite varnish or poly varnish, boiled linseed oil and thinner. When the thinner evaporates, you are left with a finish that is 50% varnish and 50% BLO. All that adding more varnish to it will do (Minwax Helmsman is varnish) is increase the varnish content in the dried finish to about 75%.Keep in mind that the appearence and feel of the finish has more to do with application technique and "finishing the finish" than what finish was used. Great finishes require work. Looking for the easy, one step perfect finish is like looking for the holy grail. It may be out there, but it hasn't been found yet.Howie.........
"Great finishes require work. Looking for the easy, one step perfect finish is like looking for the holy grail. It may be out there, but it hasn't been found yet."That's a very quotable quote, Howie. Thants for summing up my limited experience with this particular endeavor.
Thanks for responding. I sort of knew that the "finishing the finish" was going to be the final step in getting a quality look. Assuming you are finishing a 50/50 varnish and BLO, please give me an example of the steps you would use. Again, thanks so much for your response.
Read post 20 above and enjoy :-)
Markhttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=23641.20
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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