Hello everyone
I’m a new, mostly self learning woodworker who truly enjoys finishing.
I notice that many of you are firm users of traditional oil finishes. I also admit that some pieces I see look stunning with an oil finish.
However, every time I read an article from a pro using oil, the process turns out to be extremely long, complicated and tricky, for a finish which although nice looking, has poor durability.
There are a number of products on market, namely oil varnishes and polyurethane which, in my humble shop, produce similar or better results without the hassle of a complex finishing process. I DO know that polyurethane and oil are completely different things, but nonetheless both can look good…
So here. I wish to be a good wood finisher. What is everyone’s opinion on the subject? Is traditional oil a must or is it an old product bound to disappear?
All inputs are welcome.
Julien
Replies
It can be pretty simple. You can apply oil to your project--linseed oil--let it dry and apply a top finish such as wipe on varnish (I prefer non-poly for better depth). Do test scrap with the oil and finish before doing the real thing.
Well well, I did not expect that many interesting, thoughtfull answers during the first posting day...
Thanks to all for your insights, and do keep them coming. I will read with interest.
Here are sub-questions for all:
1. What are your personnal favorite finishes? The ones you just love using?
2. How many finishing methods do you experienced fellows actually use regularly? Do you stick with a couple of finishes for everything or do you use several depending on the project?Julien the happy woodworker
At least my workbench understands me...
1. What are your personnal favorite finishes? The ones you just love using?
Hmmm... a finish that I just love using? That would have to be straight nitro-cellulose lacquer. Because it is so incredibly easy to manipulate with solvents and because it is so incredibly forgiving once you know which solvents and in which proportion will yield which results.
My second favorite would have to be Vinyl conversion varnish. Because it's a very tough finish and yet has such a wonderful silky feel to it.
2. How many finishing methods do you experienced fellows actually use regularly? Do you stick with a couple of finishes for everything or do you use several depending on the project?
Well, you gotta understand that I finish (and paint) for a living for a fairly large company (about 100 employees right now) and apply finishes and paints to a very wide variety of materials. Which means that I use commercial finishing and painting products because that's what my employer pays me to do. So, it's a pretty narrow field of product types which I use to finish wood. Durability and how quickly I can churn out the finished product are standards that my employer dictates, not standards that I get to choose. The same basic situation held true with all of my past employers too.
It's not that I'm better or worse... or that the products that I use are better or worse than those used by my peers here. It's just that I rather like getting regular paychecks and to do that I have to do what my employer wants. Ultimately, they're in business to make money. The more the better. And my finish choices reflect that reality. Although I will say that I've become quite fond of working with lacquers and conversion varnishes.
That said... As far as clear finishes on wood, I spray everything with almost no exceptions. Once last year I had a situation where I got to do some padding with varnish. But, that was just because there was no easier way to accomplish the specific task. With some of the painting I do there is a wider variety of application methods... from sponging to rolling to brushing to spraying (99% is sprayed).
Preemptive Karma
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.
my personal durable favorite? Catalyzed vinyl sealer with two coats of Conversion varnish in a medium or dull sheen. Sprayed on of course, just me, kitchen cabinetmaker, commercial casework, and stairbuilder. Everything I make has to hold up tolots of touching. aloha, mike
OK, those are questions even I can answer...Personal favorites: Waterlox Original, and Shellac.I regularly use each of those. For certain projects that might get exposed to excessive moisture, I will use penetrating epoxy with a shellac or wiping-varnish topcoat.All that might change as soon as I get the compressor hooked up and start experimenting with the HVLP gun..."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Albion, you still making those step stools for errant knights of the relm? I agreee with your choices ...thats what I use too but I also use Hopes Tung Oil and Varnish. It does a great job. I just wish Waterlox was available in a small container like HopesWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Yep, just delivered a pair of chairs for an errant knight (as opposed to a knight-errant). I'll try to get some photos up.I don't make furniture fast enough to use up a gallon of Waterlox at a time, either. I decant into one-quart glass jars, filling them all the way to the brim. Canning jars are fine. We'll see how long the stuff lasts in there... I tried those collapsible plastic containers once, with some polymerized tung oil, and it still gelled. Plastic lets too much oxygen through, I think."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
blooxygen(Sp?) will keep oil finishes from gelling forever I guess. Have had real good luck with it
I recommend that you try "padding" shellac, a la Jeff Jewitt; you can get very specific instructions on how to do this at http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. It's really not too hard, and a stunning finish if you pull it off.charlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
When I finish a piece it's based on a lot of different variables. If the piece is built strictly out of the love of woodworking, which less and less these days, and the piece is small, say a dovetail box, I'll use a built up oil finish using Watco Danish oil.
If the piece is, say a kitchen cabinet, and time allows I'll hit it with a coat of Danish oil, let it sit for a few days and then top coat it with either lacquer or polyurethane.
If the piece is purely a production piece I'll give it a few coats of lacquer or polyurethane and call it done.
If it's beauty you're after go with the built up oil but give yourself up to a couple of weeks to build up the finish. A couple of coats and you're wasting your time. Use lots of elbow grease, a stack of 180, 320, 400 sandpaper and go for it. It leaves other finishes in the dust.
Favorite finishing oil, by far, is Liberon - sanded-in through 600-grit, then waxed.
Favorite aspect of oil finishes: look & repairability, ease of application (elbow grease, but little in the way of hard & fast rules or technique - no need to maintain wet edge, etc.)
On some projects where I've used Liberon, I've top coated with great results: the oil pops the grain, and the top coats add either sheen (e.g., french polishing) or protection (varnish or various kinds).
Depending on the project, also use lacquer, shellac, varnish.
Recently experimented with Rockler's gel urethane (formulated in conjunction with Dresdner?), and like the fact that it pops the grain, is easy to apply (especially on vertical surfaces), requires no sanding or rub-out, and has satin sheen.
Generally not too keen on water-borne products, especially those aimed at consumers (vs. pros), though they are improving.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Hey dogg,Where do you get Liberon products now? They used to have a store here, but it closed a few months ago and their Website doesn't seem to be functioning. I sent an e-mail and got no response."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
The local Rockler carries it (as a non-core item) because so many of us at Palomar College (about 600 students per semester, plus staff), and the San Diego Fine Woodworkers Association (over 1,600 members) create a viable market for the product in San Diego . Don't know whether Rockler carries it nationally through their catalog or not.
You may want to do a Google search to see if you can locate another source.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Julien -
I'm sorta in your camp on this - I'm not a huge fan of oil based finishes, either. I've used some of them (tung oil, etc) when the customer asked for them, but much prefer the ease and durability of a polyurethane.
You statement that "polyurethane and oil are completely different things" isn't correct, however. Polyurethane can be water based or oil based. The water based poly dries crystal clear and the oil based dries to a slightly amber look.
why would it be "bound to disappear"?
oil finishes are popular,reliably consistant and relatively cheap.
Finishing is my least favorite thing so I always look for the easiest way to go. I've been using Minwax wipe on poly for a few years and it works well for me. No brush stroke marks. Just keep adding coats til it look right!
Joe
There is no "one size fits all." There are basically three kinds of fine woodworkers.
Professionals -- Give the customer what they want. Ship it. Get paid. Start the next job.
Artisans -- I know the look I want and I don't care how long it takes. Mastering a difficult technique sets my work apart from others.
Serious Hobbyists -- I like the enjoyment of woodworking and its useful results.
Think of them as points on a triangle and an individual might lie anywhere within and be a blend of two or three.
Now let's talk customers. People who can afford custom woodworking generally don't contend with rambunctious children or drunken guests. Customers of artisans don't give a thought to these hazards. Customers of serious hobbyists who have these hazards must choose between doing repairs or the ruggedness of polyurethane.
Polyurethane got a bad reputation from pieces that had thick coats slathered on and looked like plastic. But polyurethane, thin coats, well sanded, can bring out the character and figure of wood while protecting from abrasion, gouges, spills and the other hazards of the real word.
I hope you don't get flamed too much from any intolerant True Believers.
Edited 8/9/2005 10:14 am ET by John Huber
Edited 8/9/2005 12:00 pm ET by John Huber
Your Epiphany will come, my friend, when you realize that the 'damage' you see on most pieces is actually to the film finish and not the wood and further, small dents, dings, and scratches of the wood itself are easier to fix than damage to a film finish. You may not even want to fix them at all.
Wood is a tough substance and varnishing is not always called for.
At the end of the day you need to master three finishes if you're serious about this hobby: 1) French polish/brushed shellac; 2) Oil and wax; 3) Varnish (you don't have to use a polyurethane varnish, either). Also, you don't have to brush or spray the varnish. It can be ragged on if you want to keep it low-tech.
The other post in this thread, about points on a triangle, was brilliant.
I don't use poly, but I know plenty of people who do and the stuff around now is light years beyond the old formulations that turned a bluish or greenish cast over time. Lots of great furniture is finished with poly, but oil and wax is still a mainstay as well as is shellac.
Edit:
Good point about extremely long-oil varnishes like Watco. You can build up to the thinnest of surface coatings as there is a measure of varnish added to Danish oil products. Generally speaking, you can use Danish oil and plain BLO more or less interchangeably although you'll discover some differences.
Edited 8/9/2005 12:48 pm ET by BossCrunk
Well stated. Frankly, I think poly is way overvalued and overused. It is a shame that Norm is in love with the stuff because he has such an influence on people. I wonder how many ww'ers have ever had the pain of trying to remove the stuff in a refinishing job? And I don't care what finish you put on your furniture it will need to be redone at some point in the future if you are going to use it and not put it on display. I am a fan of shellac because it is so forgiving and good looking. True, it is not good with water rings but to me that just means don't use if for a table top. That's one place where poly is particularly good.
Pure, true oils (BLO and pure, 100% tung oil) are best used as colorants, not finishes. They do little more than color the wood and "pop" the grain in darker woods. However, they provide no protection from water or water vapor, nor do they provide and abrasion protection.
That said, and as you said, oil/varnishes color exactly the same but their varnish component provides some amount of protection. Two to three applications of an oil/varnish will provide an "in the wood" finish that preserves the look and feel of the wood. Their protection and durability is sufficient for many applications.
The oil/varnishes are a much better choice than a true oil treatment. You can use a commercial oil/varnish like Watco Danish Oil or Minwax Tung Oil Finish, or any of the other "Danish Oils" or "Tung Oil Finishes". All these products are linseed oil and varnish. I only know of one that actually contains real tung oil. Or, you can make your own by mixing equal parts of varnish or poly varnish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits.
I've been following the discussion on oil finishes and I liked your input on the issue. Maybe you can answer a couple questions for me.
I've used tung oil for a few projects with varied results but use poly almost exclusively now. I want to try some poly/oil finishes.
I notice on the directions for Watco Danish Oil that it says to use it on dry, unfinished wood - I presume that means unstained, correct? I have a QSWO table top that I want to try it on but have already stained it with Minwax Wood Finish stain. Can I top that with the Watco Danish Oil in a natural color and expect good results or am I going to have to sand off the Minwax and then apply the Watco?
How about the Maloof poly/oil mix - can I apply that over wood prestained with Minwax?
I like the Minwax Wood Finish stains and I guess what I need to know is if I can apply any poly/oil finish over that stain. I hope so since this table has a fluted edge that I hate to think of sanding down to bare wood.
Many thanks in advance for your advice.
Wilmore
You can use Watco on top of Minwax oil stain as long as it only has one coat and the excess was wiped per the label instructions. Oil stains contain a small amount of varnish to seal the pigments onto the wood surface. This varnish tends to also seal the pores of the wood so penetration of the oil/varnish is reduced. I've done it many times but I much prefer using an oil/varnish on virgin wood.
I've never used Maloof finish but it should act about the same as Watco.
Rather than using an oil/varnish you might want to consider making up a thinned wiping varnish. Mix your favorite varnish 50/50 with mineral spirits and wipe it on using a clean cloth or an unembossed paper towel. It's a more durable finish than the oil varnish.
If you are interested in wiping on the finish get back here and I will publish more details. Howie.........
Do what you want and the heck with whether anyone approves of it or not. The truth of the matter is that is that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat, as you appear to have already figured out by using other things besides oil to achieve a comparable look.
I will say that it pays to investigate traditional finishes. Understanding them, how they work, how to apply them and all of that can only add to your knowledge base and that can only result in you becoming a better finisher. Knowledge is king and it's a never ending process.
I've been finishing for a living for several decades and I still learn new things regularly. Heck, I look forward to learning new things. When I was a younger and less experienced finisher I tended to look down my nose at the old ways of doing things. But, I've learned that some of the traditional finishes, and particularly some of the techniques (like padding) can be very valuable additions to my bag of tricks.
Keep an open mind, don't be afraid to try new things, and trust the evidence of your own results.
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.
Ya know, everyone here has pretty good experience and thoughts. I'll try to ruin the record by inputting my own thoughts. Sorry folks
I use poly a lot. But it's applied in lots of thin coats (4 or 5) with 320 sanding between each layer. However, for that effort, I only use the stuff where resistance to the outside world of people comes into play (kitchen cabinets, table tops where water stains or booze may wreak havoc. It's a lot of work but it always looks nice. I did just finish a piece for a TV stand and put poly on it and I'm afraid that one does look a bit plastic like, but the customer seemed happy so.
On other stuff, I've taken to using the mix Sam Maloof uses, and that you can now buy premixed through Rockler. I've not had difficulty at all with that stuff. Slather it on, wipe it off, wait till tomorrow and do it again. They recommend four coats? I've done four, but it starts to take on the poly look to me. Three seems quite nice.
Stick some wax over top and it seems a pretty durable finish. Tung oil? I still haven't had really good luck, or feelings with it. I'll use it, but.....
Of all of em so far, I guess I'm getting more comfortable with the Maloof Mix. Heck, works for Him right?
Good luck.....let me get this straight....you LIKE finishing?????????????? Wanna come to my shop?
I used to only use stain when I first started out and thought there was no need to use oils. Dont know why that was - ignorance maybe. But now that I have used oils (BLO and tung), I am a changed man.
I find that oils are alot more forgiving of careless sanding and the like since they affect the wood in a more subtle way - slight coloring. THe biggest difference is being patient with oils. You have to wait around a week for them cure. Top coat too early and you'll seal that smell in forever.
And it was mentioned earlier but they have very little protective/waterproofing properties. You still have to use a poly as a final step.
Most of my finishing is repair. Most of the pieces need to be near bulletproof. I try to match the existing finish--usually varnish.
My personal favorite for new or raw wood, particularly tabletops is Spar Varnish. I said bulletproof. I live in humidity, I don't finish in non-airconditioned spaces. I tint with artists oils, thin the first coat by at least half and use Japan Drier to MAKE it dry in under a week, usually. Then, thin by 1/4, again use Japan Drier, sand, rub out and do it again. The final sheen is purely a function of how I rub out the final coat. I thin with Turpentine--I like the smell.
NOTE: methyl ethyl keytone is serious poison. MEK really demands caution. If it's the best tool for the job, use it-if there is another choice, explore it.
Why spar varnish? Spar varnish is a long oil varnish that is soft and flexible. It's designed to allow wood to move under it in marine situations. It's softness can take impressions from writing on it. It is no more water resistant than other varnishes and if you use one of the big box brands, you are getting a fairly poor product.
An interior varnish is harder and more durable. It contains more resin solids.Howie.........
What kind of Spar is hard enough to rub out? Most of it seems to be too soft for that.Howie's right, the low-end "spar varnishes" are junk. I have a test piece with various finishes sitting out in the sun and fog, and the first to show damage was the Helmsman urethane spar. (The second was penetrating epoxy without a topcoat.)"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I use Benjamin Moore. The thinner and Japan Drier are key. I have been doing this for several years, kitchen table tops, dresser tops, coffee tables that get danced on. Badly. It is a gloss product: I rub it out 600 wet/dry and light oils.
It is flexible. It takes a beating. It is not as rigid as some other varnish products, but it is working for me. Perhaps my horrific climate has something to do with it---coastal Texas. We grow mildew in mid air, here.
Interesting. One of the other finishes on that test piece is Benjamin Moore Ultra Deep Tint Base (C 133). It went down beautifully, although too thick, and dried to a high gloss, very hard. Holding up very well so far after a couple months in the fog and occasional sunshine. It was hard enough to sand after a few days, so it would probably rub out very well. I wonder how much difference there is between Ben Moore's Spar Varnish and this paint base."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
>> What kind of Spar is hard enough to rub out?True marine spar vanishes are formulated to be soft and flexible. Good ones will never get truly hard. They are designed to go on wooden masts and other spars that need to bend. The spar varnish is flexible so it does not crack or fail with the flexing. Because of it's softness, it has very poor abrasion resistance.In other words, a spar varnish has no real place on furniture. The hardest, most durable are interior rated varnishes.Howie.........
In other words, a spar varnish has no real place on furniture ???Just me so don't get upset.. I have seen some pretty nice stuff on them old referb boats... Like in those 1920/1930 wooden power boats... I have talked to re-habbers and they claim they use marine grade spar varnish on most everything except on modern built boats... Most of the wood looks look like a mirror! Inside and outside...EDIT:: Well, not below the water line!
Edited 8/14/2005 9:46 am ET by WillGeorge
Manufacturers of real marine coatings make three varnish products generally. One is intended for interior use only because it contains no UV inhibitors. It is a short oil varnish and dries to a hard durable finish. This is what is used on the interior surfaces on most fine yachts.For exterior use, there is exterior varnish which is a slightly more flexible varnish that contains UV inhibitors. This product is used for "brightwork" coatings. Things like transoms, rails, deck trim, seats, etc. It is hard enough to be durable and be able to take abrasion. The UV protects the finish from sun but needs to be renewed periodically. Finally, there is spar varnish. This, as I have said, is a special purpose product. It's flexible and soft. It's not used for applications that would get much handling or abrasion. Whether an varnished surface looks "nice" or not has nothing to do with whether it is an interior or exterior varnish. It has to do the with quality of the finish and the skill of the applier. Sure, lots of vintage boats have nice brightwork but that has very little to do with the issue of "spar varnish".Howie.........
and the skill of the applier yA GOT IT!I use poly a lot But she is She easy
Edited 8/23/2005 3:46 pm ET by WillGeorge
I personally use spar varnish all the time for refinishing antiques. I know (very well) Howie's "take" on it, but I find it hard to distinguish that this finish "never really gets hard". It has seen a lot of table tops and chest tops and other tops through a LOT of use. It makes a beautiful, deep finish (non-poly varnish).
I believe in a recent FWW it was showcased as a furniture finish of choice--not the controversial comparison article, however.
And as Jim Kull, a host on the WoodMagazine board once said, perhaps a "flexible" finsish would be preferable over a brittle hard finish. I have seen dents from trikes without a break in the finish.
Gretchen
Edited 8/14/2005 5:18 pm ET by Gretchen
you are firm users of traditional oil finishes
Who me?? NA! I just use what seems right at the time...
OIL is the BEST (I think) if you have the time... And sort of dust free place to do it!
Julien,
Like you I am just getting into finishing. I would highly recommend a couple of books that will give you the level of understanding of all the finishing options to make an informed choice about whcih finish to use in a given situation.
Flexner's book "Understanding Wood Finishing" was the definitive source and is still an excellent resource. Very readable and information-packed. It's just a little dated for some of the newer finishes.
Jeff Jewitt's new book from Taunton, "Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing" is the new reigning champ. Covers all aspects of preparing your material and application of sealers, stains/dyes and finishes. Highly recommended. Also, as one poster mentioned, Jeff's business is Homestead Finishing and you can find lots of good information and product there.
My first project is kitchen cabinets. Since I don't have commercial-quality ventalation I went for a water-based conversion "varnish" instead of the oil-based stuff (catalyzed lacquers, nitro-cellulose, etc.) others have mentioned. First coat is 2# shellac (Zinzer Bullseye sanding sealer), which prevents grain raising from the water-based finish and also gives some warmth and depth to the maple. As mentioned elsewhere, shellac doesn't stand up well to water & other abuse but I do really like what it does as a base coat.
Wayne
>>Flexner's book "Understanding Wood Finishing" was
The 2nd edition was just published in past couple of months. It's still one of the best. I recommend by Flexner and Jewitt.Howie.........
I typically use O/V finishes, which when cured are hard and provide some protection. If the protection fails, O/V finishes are super easy to fix.
I recently lacked time for a project and decided to use a poly finish on a maple table top. This indeed was fast, it sanded well, but it still looks more plastic than an O/V finish (and this is for a thin finish).
O/V finishes never look plastic. They take little time to apply, though the many coats and drying times make it a long process. But you also have the benefit that they can be applied in a dusty shop and don't require a respirator when around them.
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