I am trying to refinish a gunstock that has oil in the wood, probably from years and years of cleaning. Most of the oil has seeped into the end grain where the wood was inlet to meet the metal of the receiver and forend. I have been attempting to use a product called whiting which is white carbonate that you mix with acetone making a paste that you paint on the wood and as it drys, it’s suppose to wick out the oil into the carbonate. Then you brush away. After 6 applications, there’s not much wicking going on. Does anyone have any suggestions or other methods I might try?
Thanks,
RLH
Replies
If it is in the inletting where it will not be seen when the firearm is assembled, why worry about it. Why are you trying to extract oil in an area like this?
Because the oil works its way back up under the finish causing darkening of the wood in spots. Now it may have actually penetrated the finish. I am just assuming that the most likely point of entry was where the wood meets the metal and that would be at the inletting. The spotting spreads outward, away for the the metal in all cases.
Thanks,
RLH
You might have better results sealing it in with shellac, using it as a barrier coat under your oil based (I assume) finish. We might be able to help you a little better if you told us the wood from which the stock is made, what finish--brand name--you are using to finish the stock, and the condition of the stock and action before you began the refinishing process.
It's a figured walnut. Some flaming or quilting present. May be a turkish walnut. Here's what I intend to do.
After I have steamed out the various dents and sanded the stock with 220, I lightly mist the stock with water to raise the grain and let it dry completely.
I use Original Waterlox sealer/finish cut 2 parts mineral spirits 1 part finish next to flood the stock and hopfully penetrate the wood giving a better base for water proofing. I let if dry overnight. even if doesn't take that long so that I am sure it's dry.
Then I start wet sanding with 320 using the same 2 to 1 mixture, with the grain. Once a get a good mud wood dust slurry all over, I kind of re-wet the stock with the finish mixture and let it sorta begin to dry. Then I wipe it with paper shop towels across the grain attempting to fill the pores in the wood. I don't have to get all of the mud slurry off when I wipe because I'm going to do it again. In fact, I don't wipe too hard becuase if tends to pull the finish back out of the grain. I let it dry overnight again, which winds up being about 24 hours.
I do this with 320 about 3 or 4 times, until I can angle the stock in a light and see that the pores are pretty much filled.
Then I go to 400 grit, followed by 600 grit. When I wipe after the 600 grit, I use a clean, lint free piece of cotton fannel and I wipe along the grain. This time I make sure I get all of the mud off.
I wait 3 or 4 days to a week and let it really dry. I can re-cut the checkering now. Once's that's done, I use a product called Pilkington’s Classic Gunstock Finish which I think is nothing but linseed oil with coloring in it. If fact, the person who taught these steps to me describe this as a Pilkington's classic oil finish. Anyway, the Pilkington's product comes with rottenstone and you make a paste and cover the stock, less the checkered areas, with the paste and let it dry for about 30 minutes. Then you rub off the paste, along the grain, with another cotton flannel cloth and it's done.
This finish is what you find on custom bespoke shotguns I'm told. It certainly looks like it if you don't rush it. And that's why I'm trying to get these oil spots out. I want to look as fine as shotgun it's going on.
I think I understand most of what you are doing. Waterlox is varnish, and basically you are using it to fill the pores. You can apply, let dry and sand off until you reach the point of cutting through, and achieve a similar result, except that the finish will be deeper because the pores will have been filled with the clear varnish not varnish and saw dust. Using the wet sanding, assuming you can keep any of the swarf in the pore, will give slightly darker colored pores because saw dust takes the finish more like end grain. Because of the sanding and wiping you end up with a thin film of varnish on the surface and pores filled with additional varnish with a little sanding dust.
I presume the Pilkington finish is varnish also, with a little dye added to give the color, and then marked up to $350 per quart when sold in little bottles. (Quite a good deal for Pilkington.) If it were linseed oil, or lightly polymerized linseed oil, it would make no sense to apply it over the Waterlox since it would dry excessively soft (almost gummy if it were just colored BLO) It will not, in any case, be more protective than the Waterlox which as a phenolic resin varnish with tung oil as an ingredient is as durable as it comes. I'd bet a fair chunk that a identical result could be achieved with a good traditional resin varnish and a few drops of oil soluble dye.
I'd continue with the acetone--using paper towels and wiping the acetone off quickly before it can evaporate, redepositing the oil on the wood. To me, the whiting doesn't seem llikely to add much to the oil removal. (I presume the oil we are talking about is excess rust prevention oil over the years.) After removing as much as possible, and letting the acetone evaporate fully, you could seal any residual oil with shellac, sanding it off until you only have shellac in pores and not on the surface. Waterlox will adhere well to the shellac. Using a darker shellac--garnet or orange might be subtly attractive giving pores a slightly richer look, but not changing the basic close to the wood varnish finish that your method gives.
I'm using the same technique on a walnut stock from an old a Savage rifle I'm refinishing, filling the pores with a walnut slurry. It is a classic technique, sure makes a mess, but the result will be worth it....Jeff
Once you put several washes of Waterlox on it, I can't see how you're going to get a full cure out with BLO. There are enough resins in the WLOX to seal everything up. Personally, I'd skip that last step, let the waterlox cure out for at least a week, then rub out the surface.
I hear what your saying. The Plinkington's is 40% BLO and 60% mineral spirits. I agree in thought about the BLO not curing out, however, the look that is being achieved is what people buying a 35K to 100K shotgun will pay for and this is how they get it. They make that rottenstone-Plinkington's paste, cover the wood with it, and thirty minutes later wipe if off with the grain. It will dry and you have that "look" they want. This is the way they do it at Holland & Holland, Kennedy Guns, Beretta's SO shop.
That being said, discussion of the finish is off track of what I was really seeking help for. It's how to get oil (gun oil, penetrant) out of the wood. The latest suggestion I have received is to heat the wood in an oven to 150 - 175 degrees and the oil will bubble up. It was also suggested that adding acetone to the wood with rags while the wood is hot will help bring it out. I'll probably set the kitchen fire trying this. Better I wait until my wife goes to bed before I start "wood baking" and use acetone in the kitchen sink.
One old guy (read that custom stockmaker) heats up the wood in a pan of acetone. I swear that's what he said. I won't be doing that. Wonder how he got old?
Thanks for everyone's input.
RLH
As a matter of physics, you simply can not get all of the oil out of the wood and as the amount of remaining oil gets less and less you will get to a point of diminishing returns for the additional efforts at removal.
What I'm leading towards is that no matter what you do to remove the oil, the finish you apply will have to work with a certain amount of oil in the wood. Gun finishing is a well established craft going back for a hundred years or more, it would seem that there must already exist a solution for this.
John W.
Yes, you would think so. If must be a closely held secret though.
I did try the oven/heating method tonight and actually had oil bubbling up out of the wood on the exact places I had identified as a problem. I pre-heated the oven to 175 degrees and left the wood in for 45 mins before I checked on it and found the oiled droplets setting on top of the oil spots. I tried to wipe it off and that might not be the best way. It should probably be soaked up with an adsorbent paper tower or cloth. I heated again and when I took it out this time, I laid a saturated acetone rag on the spots. That seem to help a little too. I then washed it with a hot soapy dish washing sponge. that also seemed to help.
I going to let in dry completely over night and heat it again tommorrow, trying these steps again to see how better I can get it. I'll post my results.
RLH
RLH
I'm beginning to rethink this. Naptha is a good solvent for an oil. What about filling a bucket or tray with naptha and soaking the stock in this for a couple of hours?
I said I would report what I've tried and what worked the best.
I put the stock on a cookie sheet and stuck it in the oven at 175 degrees. I left there for proabably 1.5 to 2 hours. Checking on it every 15 minutes or so, after about one hour, I began to see oil pooling up at places were I had seen oil stains. I finally took it out when I noticed the smell of the wood. I guess I was afraid something was going to catch fire. Anyway, I blotted off the oil droplets.
I waited another couple of hours until the stock had cooled off, then stuck back in again. You could see the oil spots darken up, but I never saw the oil beading up again. I took it out and wiped it with a rag soaked with acetone several times. After the stock cooled, there was not much difference in the appearence.
Once it had cooled again, back in it went. When I took in out this time, I stuck down into a bucket of acetone, submerging the part with the oil spots. I left there until it cooled. There was some floating oil on the acetone this time. I suctioned the oil off before removing the stock, trying to not let any get back on. When it dried, there still was not much difference.
After it cooled, I put it back in the oven. You could see the oil spots get darker as the heat got the wood up to temperature. This time when I took the stock out, I scrubbed it down with a product called simple green. It's general purpose cleaner degreaser concentrate. I cut it about 10 to 1 with water. It is a butyl based cleaner. I let it soak in the cleaner for about 10 minutes after the initial scrubbing and rinsing. Then I rinsed all of the cleaner off and let it dry. This had more affect that anything. There is still a very faint oil spot, but much better than when I started.
Thanks for everyone's input. If you don't know, you need to ask for help.
RLH
The old guy and the hot acetone is not far from what I will do confronted with this problem. If I try to remove the oil, my first step is to use a paint remover. After all the paint is removed, I find a rectangular container where the wood may be completely submerged in paint thinner and keep it for a long time submerged (and covered). The surface oil will be removed by dilution into the thinner, there will be deeper oil removed as well with the expected probability that enough is removed so it does not show under the new topcoat. The more fresh thinner and the longer the time, the better removal. The long term process is replacement of oil from wood cells by the solvent, it takes time, but has been proven to work with animal and plant cells in other tissue preservations and other solvents. There is no reason why it will not to work here.
I have a friend who restored shotguns for a few decades. Wish he was handy: I'd ask him about the oil. I know what you are talking about. I used to collect fine guns. I had Berettas, Winchesters, old Brownings and Kreighoffs, all over and unders. If it didn't have gold inlays, I didn't buy it.
Good luck with it. Sorry if I took you off track.
Oil Removal, Black Stain
Old post I know but it may be useful to someone who searches.
The Black Stains that occur close to the metal in a gun stocks, or any other piece of wood/steel that gets wet, are almost certainly from the reaction of the Tannic Acid, occurring to varying levels in most woods, with the Iron Oxides (rust). It can be removed with Oxalic Acid. It forms a chemical complex, dissolving the rust/Tannin compounds. Oxalic Acid can be found in many paint supply departments. It is sold as 'wood bleach' and will also remove the brown stains left by the funguses that attack wet wood.
Applying soulble Iron compounds to wood with a high Tannin content is an old method of staining wood (Walnt used in gun stocks has a high Tannin content.). You can dissolved Steel Wool in Vinegar, or any acid of your choice, to make soluable Iron compounds. You can darken the affect by first soaking the wood with Tannic Acid. An Ebonized deep Black can result.
The Iron Oxides also seem to promote rotting in the wood but it may just be that both the wood and steel are wet when water soaks in around the absorbant end grain in the inletted areas. Unfortunately the water can only dry out very slowly; the metal covers the end grain and a finish covers the outside of the stock. They both prevent evaproation. The Black areas are often soft. These soft areas can absorb lots of oils and waxes so it is often incorrectly assumed that the oils caused the rot.
When refinishing any wood that can get wet it's always best to coat the end grain with some type of water resistant finish to slow water penertration. If the gun stock can be removed easily, it's best to take it off for drying if it's been in the rain. Repeated swelling/shrinking from wetting/drying can also cause cracking of the wood.
Soaking a thin 'Superglue' (technically a Canoacrylate (sp?)) will strengthen any softened wood. It should also slow water intrusion.
I'm not sure if there is a reason to remove the oils from under the woods surface . The natural oils in wood can evaporate over a long period of time; 100 Years? This shrinks the wood which can also cause cracking around the tightly fitting metal. Shooting can now crack the wood further from the hammering of recoil, especially around tangs and sidelocks which act as wedges. Waxes and Oils can replace the natural oils preventing shrinkage.
Solvents or hand diswashing detergent are commonly used for removing surface oils. Just washing the wood in either/both should remove enough of the surface oils to prevent interfering with finish adhesion.
Warming the wood before using solvents drives out some of the gases and vapors. Putting the warm wood in cold solvents draws in the solvent deeper into the wood when the cooilng gases contract. Rewarming drives out the oil/solvent when the warm solvent evaporates in the gases in the wood. Repeated heating/cooling should draw out much of the oils and waxes below the surface. Warm solvents could ignite in your oven! Using a heat gun outside is a lot safer.
If you wood is farely well sealed and the oil has worked in through various small openings in the finish you can't expect whiting to draw out the oil through those little pores in the finish - remove finish from those areas that aren't seen and apply the stuff and give it time to work - oil didn't seap in there overnight and it won't come back out overnight.
Brownells is a great source of information as well as gunsmithing products - I haven't looked through their site online in a while but there may be other products that work as well or better.
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