I am looking for a good oil/varnish blend that will have minimal yellowing over time and minimal gloss. I spoke with minwax today and they informed me that their tung oil has less yellowing but more gloss, and their antique oil — which is made with linseed oil — yellows more over time but does not leave much if any sheen. Cabot’s #8099 is tung oil based and does leave a sheen as the coats are built up. Would be very curious to learn which products in the oil/varnish blend category folks like the best, including any home made formulas if any of you use them… many thanks, t.
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast
-
Our favorite articles and videos
-
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
The best oil/varnishes are those you make yourself. Just mix your favorite varnish or poly varnish and linseed oil or pure tung oil and mineral spirits in a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 proportion. If you are looking for the least yellow concoction, use Pratt & Lambert 38 satin varnish and pure tung oil.
Apply heavily, let set for 15 - 20 minutes and then wipe off all the excess. Let dry overnight and then do it again. Finally let it dry thoroughly for a week. Then use a gray or green Scotchbrite non-woven abrasive pad and evenly abrade and smooth the surface. This step will reduce any gloss and leave a smooth surface Be sure to let the finish fully dry or you can end up with white sanding dust in the pores.
This process should give you the least glossy but still protective finish for your item.
As always, test out your complete finishing plan and schedule before committing to your actual project.
Thanks Howie, that is very helpful. If you wouldn't mind, a couple of follow up questions. 1. Would it be correct to believe that on Walnut, the minimally yellowing-formula will pop the grain less than a formula that had more yellowing? 2. If so, is the tradeoff for this that over time, the color of the finish will be more stable, and darken less? Many thanks, t.
The more amber the finish, the more it will tend to highlight the figure. But, the overall tone of the wood will be more amber.
>>>> is the tradeoff for this that over time, the color of the finish will be more stable, and darken less?
There are a number of factors that go into finish yellowing over time including the fact that the wood itself will change color over time. In general a phenolic resin finish like Waterlox Original has better resistance to yellowing over time. But we're talking years and years so It's normally not an issue long term.
For example, unlike most woods, walnut becomes lighter in color with age and exposure to UV.
Oil
Howie
Do you recommend linseed oil over boiled linseed and if so what advantages are there or differences in the final coating.
SA
Boiled linseed oil is the one to use. Chemicals are added to hasten the drying and curing. Regular linseed oil will take weeks or more to dry and cure.
Your best bet would be to use a light colored varnish, such as Pratt & Lambert 38 which is soya based and will start lighter and darken less than polyurethane varnishes. You would never want to use raw linseed oil but would use boiled linseed oil, which isn't of course oiled, but which has metallic driers encorporated so it will cure MUCH faster than the raw linseed oil. NONE of the oil varnish finishes should build a sheen since they should never be allowed to build up. If they do build up then they have been applied incorrectly. After being applied and allowed to penetrate for a short period they should be then vigorously wiped, with dry rags so that you have removed all excess material. It should feel almost dry right after you wipe off excess. The surface shouldn't show a film. The most common formula is equal parts of BLO, varnish, and mineral spirits.
I don't mean to add this in place of suggestions already given
Just something else to investigate. Especially now that I understand you are finishing a chair not a table.
Sam Maloof was getting $30,000 for his walnut rocking chairs. (yep that is thirty big ones not three) .
He used to make em shiny but came to like the in the wood nonshiny look. Judging by the price other people liked the finish OK too.
: )
and he used
poly varnish and linseed oil AND pure tung oil in a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 proportion.
He skipped the mineral spirits.
Furthermore he liked to leave on the lighter sapwood on some of his work.
I like this finish a lot. You may as well.
Give it a test and see. Can make your own or buy premixed.
PS: he had a second finish he put on top of this that was
linseed oil AND pure tung oil and bee's wax in a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 proportion. That controls the shine as well. Apply and wipe off well and is low, low gloss. Rub like crazy and it shines up some.
From an article I wrote a while ago
Don Kondra's Secret Magic Mix
If you dread the finishing part of a project as much as I used to, perhaps I can persuade you to give this mix/technique a try.
The idea of using a oil combined with a film forming finish is not new; this is simply the one I have settled on after experimenting with a number of different products.
An ideal finish should be easy to apply, enhance the grain and figure of the wood and provide a reasonable level of protection from normal wear and tear.
The soft hand rubbed glow is a bonus. If you want a shinier finish, apply more coats.
While we are at it, wouldn’t it be nice to have an easily repairable surface that does not require stripping.
This is it. Just give the surface a good cleaning, scuff sand with a foam pad and reapply.
The application method assures there is no danger of brush marks or sags in the finish.
It dries fairly quickly so dust settling on the finish is not an issue.
The ingredients are as follows -
25% pure tung oil (available at Lee Valley)
25% spar (exterior) varnish
50% paint thinner
Japan drier - one capful per Cup of mix
Roughly a cup of mix will do a coffee table sized project.
I use this finish often enough that I mix up a quart at a time, without the Japan drier. Then I pour off as much as I need and add the drier which is available at paint stores.
Only mix up as much as you expect to use in two or three days, the drier will cause it to gel after that even in a closed container.
For the first coat I place an 8" square of T-shirt right in the container of mix.
Squeeze it out enough so it isn't dripping all over the floor and apply to the wood, keep going over any thirsty spots for ten minutes or so.
Then firmly wring out the rag and use it to wipe the project off.
All other coats are simply wiped on and wiped off, again with the same rag.
The idea is to build up thin coats.
I have applied three coats in one day but I recommend one in the morning and one in the late afternoon.
I apply three to four coats on legs, etc. and at least six coats on tops.
This may sound like a lot of work but a coat only takes minutes, it is similar to applying a coat of oil.
I sand lightly with fine foam sanding pads after the first coat and again before the last coat. A rag slightly dampened with paint thinner makes a good tack cloth or you can just use the air compressor to clean the surface.
After three days or so I will rub down the surface with white scotchbrite pads, always with the grain.
If the finish scratches you can wait another day or so for it harden further or continue to use the scotchbrite and then wipe with the grain with a rag slightly dampened with paint thinner, this will dissolve any scratches.
If you are having a problem with streaking on large surfaces on the last coat, let it dry and apply a coat thinned another 50%.
It will take a week for the finish to fully cure.
BEWARE - If you change the ingredients, you are on your own...
I'm going to disagree about Don's finish. If you are going to use an oil/varnish mix, then it should be wiped off vigorously, with a dry rag, not just wiped off with the same rag and allowed to build a film. The film you build after combining oil, and a varnish, especially a long oil spar varnish, is going to be relatively soft, and I don't think the japan drier is going to help this in a desirable way. If you want to build a film then do it right and use a wiping varnish. Then the result will not be softened by the addition of the oil, or made brittle (not durable) by the addition of the Japan drier.
You can make wiping varnish by simply adding thinner to a full strength varnish. Pratt & Lambert 38 for a light colored varnish, with Waterlox Original/Sealer for a darker colored varnish similar to Don's mixture. Either will be more durable, and equally repairable assuming a film has been built with the mix. My suggestions are both non-polyurethane varnishes and consequently don't have the adhesion issues that make varnishes with polyurethane hard to repair.
With the wiping varnish you can easily apply 2-3 coats per day, without adding Japan drier. Just space the coats several hours apart, just as soon as they aren't tacky. After no more than 3 coats they do need an overnight drying perior, and to be sanded lightly before another set of coats is applied. But no sanding is needed within coats of a set--the short drying time lets the next coat bond to the preceeding. After over night drying the sanding helps ensure a good bond.
But, anytime you build a film, you are changing the appearance dramatically. Use oil/varnish when you want an in-the-wood finish that has no surface film, use varnish alone when you want a film.
Some other body
Don,
You wrote to me
>If you dread the finishing part of a project <
Nah dude nah ; you have me confused with some body else, maybe the person who started this thread.
I love futzing around with finishes. I love futzing around with woodworking in general.
Maybe I just love futzing.
I spent a whole winter, in my spare time, developing the optimal finish to bring out the maximum beauty of our bubinga dining table. I had a great time ! I found the application of it fascinating. I learned a lot ! One of these days I plan on planing it all off and trying a subtle change with the same finish.
I never rush my woodworking. It is a luxury not to have to. I enjoy all the various processes. Even sharpening.
Yah . . . I'm a sickO.
PS: I gotta go with Steve, spar varnish is for boats. Also I have found no reason to stink up the shop or the house with solvent in my oil / varnish mix.
This doesn't mean I didn't enjoy and learn from your post; I did. Keep contributing , please.
Didn't mean to reply to "you" Roc
I just hit reply and your's was the last post :)
Steve > Disagreement is good, we can all learn something about options.
Cheers, Don
Outdoor furniture finish
Howdy! I have been reading your advice on oil and varnish and I have an important (to me) question. I am building a five-feet-square table of cherry and oak for our uncovered porch. I have sanded to 220 and applied two coats of Watco Danish (natural) on my way to four coats with lots of drying time betwee coats. How much outdoor protection does this offer? My wife believes that even if the table is kept covered in the elements, it will take a beating from the sun and rain. She says we should have a varnish finish on top of the Watco oil finish. Is that correct? If so, should I take the advice of letting the wiped Watco finish dry for two weeks and then apply varnish thinned for wiping? This table is a pile of work and I want the finish to be durable. We will be using a cover but this is North Carolina and we never know for sure about the coming weather. If wiping varnish is recommended (thinned varnish), should it be a spar varnish or Pratt and Lambert? Or, perhaps, just more coats of Watco Danish?
This is asking a lot of you or someone to answer, but I do need to find out, so who better to ask than an FWW expert.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled