Hello all,
I am buildng a desk for a computer, and plan on using a wipe on oil/varnish finish. What brands would you recommend? For homemade blends, what is a good ratio of oil to varnish to thinner?
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Replies
Watco is the long time standby. You do buy a lot of paint thinner at oil/varnish price.
The "standard" formula is 1 part oil, 1 part varnish, and 1 part thinner. There is absolutely no reason that this must be anything like precise, more like 2 glugs of oil, varnish poured in until it looks like the level has risen about the same as the original depth, followed by a few dollops of thinner until it seems to be a good consistency. Thinner doesn't participate in the final finish, just makes it easier to apply. You want it to flow on, and then let it soak in for a short while before wiping it off vigorously.
Also, remember this is the stuff about which the hazard warnings about "oily rags" applies.
I've had some favorable long term experience with paste varnish. It's easy to use, wipe on with an old T-shirt mouse. Pleasant odor, lower solvents, tacks fast, no sanding between coats but can be buffed and polished. It builds much faster than thinned materials and the durability is excellent. Resistant to water, alcohol, fruit juices. It has a warm tone that is nice for traditional furniture styles. There isn't any need to mix anything, use straight from the can, no runs or drips. Several manufacturers make a version, Bartley's, Turco, Old Colony,
http://www.swingpaints.com/1805.htm
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Currently I am considering using Watco Danish Oil, Watco Teak Oil, pure Tung oil, Miniwax Wipe-on Poly, Miniwax Antique Oil, or the Paste Varnish mentioned above. Any opinions or recommendations?
If you are considering a wipe-on varnish, I really like the waterlox products. Durable and builds easily.
Malcolm
http://www.shellacshack.com
The list represents a wide range of products. The Watco Danish and the Watco Teak Oil are practically the same, with a bit of tung added to make the Teak Oil. These are quite similar to the Minwax Antique Oil. They are all quite similar to what you would get by mixing oil, varnish, and thinner.
Pure Tung Oil doesn't offer the same protection as the oil/varnish mixes. As a stand alone finish I don't recommend it. It cures very slowly, so that several days, not just overnight, should be allowed between coats. It takes about 5 coats to get an even satin sheen, so you are talking about a two week process just to get the basic finish on. And, to cap it off, if you don't hold your mouth right during the application it can develop a white "frosty" appearance. Tung oil makes a good "grain popping" coat when you what a bit less darkening than linseed oil, and is also a good ingredient in varnishes.
Minwax Wipe-On Poly is a thinned varnish, and is a film finish, not a "in the wood" finish like the oil varnish mixes. There are better wiping varnishes, either made by diluting a quality full strength varnish with thinner. Good candidates would be Behlen Rockhard, or for a lighter colored varnish, either Pratt & Lambert 38 or McCloskey Heirloom. Another choice that I like quite a lot is Waterlox. The Original/Sealer gives a very nice mellow gloss, but there is also a Satin version and a Gloss variety.
I have never liked gel varnishes the few times I have used them. They apply easily and look good initially, but I have been disappointed with the durability. Gels make sense to me when you need a pigmented stain that doesn't penetrate very much, but I don't know why I would want a varnish that doesn't penetrate very much, but can only be applied in a thin, wipe on--wipe off coating.
I really like the Maloof mix, I've used it for years. It applies well and gives a nice finish, also easy to repair. I get it from Rockler.
Dale
Following this entire discussion I noticed that no one commented on your recommendation of the Maloof oil/poly mix.
I, too, have used it for years and, in fact, use it exclusively. The combination of tung, blo and poly renders a fast, easy and durable finish. And, as you point out, it has the added virtue of being easy to repair.
It does absolute wonders for walnut, cherry, maple and bubinga.
The one caveat is to refrain from using it inside chests, cabs, boxes, etc. because the aroma will be there for a long time.
Question for you: do you sand between coats? I apply three or four coats of the oil/poly and sometimes follow with a coat of the wax/poly.. but I never sand or use wool between. The can directions are somewhat ambiguous on this point.
Bill
Yes, I use wool between coats. I think it gives a smoother silky finish this way. It really is a great finish, very simple.
Dalehttp://www.timberwerksstudio.com
Thanks, I'll try using wool, too.
Bill
I like "Tried and True":
http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/
No affiliation, just a satisfied customer,
Andy
I like Tried and True too, but recently switched to Waterlox original. I think it applies equally easily and provides a similar finish. I think it's cheaper too.....
The table will be made of cherry. I listed Teak Oil thinking that the tung oil in it would give some more protection than regular Danish Oil. Is that true? Also, the Waterlox products seem to be quite popular. What exactly are they?
It is the varnish in oil/varnish mixes that give meaningful protection. The addition of a little tung can hardly make much difference.
Waterlox makes a fairly complete line of finishing products, but the core of their line are three versions of varnish that are well made and give an attractive look while avoiding polyurethane. The most widely used, I think, is the Original/Sealer. This works well as a wiping varnish, and gives a mellow , not quite high, gloss that looks quite nice. They do have a Gloss version, which also applies well being brushed, but can be wiped on, though a dollop of thinner might help. For a duller sheen there is a Satin version. The varnish is the product of reacting phenolic resin with tung oil. Consequently it is quite tough--phenolic gives harder varnishes than alkyd--though a bit on the dark side, making it best suited for darker woods or when a traditional varnished wood look is desired.
Greetings,
This is my version of a wipe on finish... I've included the full text from an article submission...
If you dread the finishing part of a project as much as I used to, perhaps I can persuade you to give this mix/technique a try.
The idea of using a oil combined with a film forming finish is not new; this is simply the one I have settled on after experimenting with a number of different products.
An ideal finish should be easy to apply, enhance the grain and figure of the wood and provide a reasonable level of protection from normal wear and tear.
The soft hand rubbed glow is a bonus. If you want a shinier finish, apply more coats.
While we are at it, wouldn’t it be nice to have an easily repairable surface that does not require stripping.
This is it. Just give the surface a good cleaning, scuff sand with a foam pad and reapply.
The application method assures there is no danger of brush marks or sags in the finish.
It dries fairly quickly so dust settling on the finish is not an issue.
The ingredients are as follows -
25% pure tung oil (available at Lee Valley)
25% spar (exterior) varnish
50% paint thinner
Japan drier - one capful per Cup of mix
Roughly a cup of mix will do a coffee table sized project.
I use this finish often enough that I mix up a quart at a time, without the Japan drier. Then I pour off as much as I need and add the drier which is available at paint stores.
Only mix up as much as you expect to use in two or three days, the drier will cause it to gel after that even in a closed container.
For the first coat I place an 8" square of T-shirt right in the container of mix.
Squeeze it out enough so it isn't dripping all over the floor and apply to the wood, keep going over any thirsty spots for ten minutes or so.
Then firmly wring out the rag and use it to wipe the project off.
All other coats are simply wiped on and wiped off, again with the same rag.
The idea is to build up thin coats.
I have applied three coats in one day but I recommend one in the morning and one in the late afternoon.
I apply three to four coats on legs, etc. and at least six coats on tops. This may sound like a lot of work but a coat only takes minutes, it is similar to applying a coat of oil.
I sand lightly with fine foam sanding pads after the first coat and again before the last coat. A rag slightly dampened with paint thinner makes a good tack cloth or you can just use the air compressor to clean the surface.
After three days or so I will rub down the surface with white scotchbrite pads, always with the grain.
If the finish scratches you can wait another day or so for it harden further or continue to use the scotchbrite and then wipe with the grain with a rag slightly dampened with paint thinner, this will dissolve any scratches.
If you are having a problem with streaking on large surfaces on the last coat, let it dry and apply a coat thinned another 50%.
It will take a week for the finish to fully cure.
BEWARE - If you change the ingredients, you are on your own View Image
Spar varnish isn't a good choice with a oil/varnish mix. It is designed mainly for flexibility in the extreme variations of marine use and consequently quite soft. The oil in oil varnish mixes makes the combination a soft finish anyway, no reason to compound the softness. Spar varnish is not more water resistant than other varnishes--in addition to flexibility its primary attribute is UV protection, but that only really kicks in when it is applied full strength in the necessary 6 or more brushed on coats.
And, it's not a good idea to try to build a film of any sort with the oil/varnish. You want to apply it, let some soak in, and then wipe off any excess with a dry rag so that finish isn't left on the surface. Oil varnish should be an "in-the-wood" finish. If encourages to build a film that film will be very soft.
If you want to build a film then a wipe on varnish, made by diluting a regular strength varnish, or purchase as a wiping varnish (such as the Waterlox products.) These dry hard and can be allowed to build up a film.
All right, I've narrowed odwon my list a little. Please comment on the following: Watco Teak Oil, Miniwax Wipe-on Poly, General Finishes' Arm-r Seal, or the Paste Varnish mentioned above.
My comments are pretty much the same. You have two wiping varnishes--the Minwax Wipe-on-Poly and the General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. They will be difficult to distinquish between. Both are consumer grade wiping varnishes, OK but nothing special--I suppose if I had to chose between just those two it would be the General Finishes product. I prefer Waterlox Original/Sealer to either of these. It's also a wiping varnish, but with a traditional resin.
I wouldn't use the Watco Teak Oil, based entirely on the marketing since there is nothing in the mix that makes it any more suited for use on teak than the Watco Danish Oil. I strongly doubt you could tell the difference between wood finished with the Danish Oil and the Teak Oil.
I still don't like paste varnishes.
Before worrying about specific brands, you should decide whether you want an in-the-wood finish, which is what you would get with the oil/varnish such as Watco, or whether you want a film finish that is on top of the wood which is what you get with any of the wipe on varnishes. Varnish is more protective than oil/varnish, but the choice is largely aesthetic. Buy several and try them out on scrap before working on the actual project.
I like Bush oil, even though I usually make my own O/V mix. Bill Bush gave a talk at our WW club and I liked what I saw. I've tried his formulation and it is indeed quite nice.
Available through curiouswoods.com; somewhere I have the email for Bill Bush, and if I find it, I'll add it to this post.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I have used this mixture (from an old finishing book) with nice success. HOwever, I only use it for one application--wipe on and wipe off. I then topcoat with wipe on varnish--6-8 coats.
I happen to not agree with Steve and Howie about spar varnish being too "soft" for finishing purposes but have stopped trying to rebut every mention of it. I have used it successfully for my refinishing jobs. As the host on another wood board once pointed out, in my defense, flexibility is not necessarily a bad thing on furniture--"dent" rather than "chip".Gretchen
>> flexibility is not necessarily a bad thing on furniture--"dent" rather than "chip".Right. In fact, a soft, long oil varnish is preferred as a finish on soft woods like pine if they are going to get some abuse.Howie.........
Ah Gretchen,
You mean to say I haven't been doing a bad thing for the last twenty eight years :)
I will say that six wiped on and wiped off coats barely qualifies as a "film" finish but I do have a client with a family of four using a table I made every day for all meals called after six years to ask for the formula. The kids were two and four when I delivered the piece.
No stripping, just a good clean up and a couple more coats....
Cheers, Don.
Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
Don, I used your formula and have to say I am pleased. I did make one change which you may not approve of - I used turps instead of paint thinner, here in the US I don't always know what I'm buying when i buy paint thinner. Thanks for sharing your formula, I like it and will use in again.
Thank you.
I actually think I would rather smell turp than paint thinner.....
Numerous sources says "it is used chiefly as a solvent and drying agent in paints and varnishes"
Did you still add the Japan drier and get a dust free surface in half an hour?
Don.
PS. Howie, I also feel a "softer" finish will outlast a brittle one...
Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
Don, I did use a bit of the Japan drier, more like 1/2 ounce to the quart ratio. I was pleased that it was dry to the touch in 30 to 45 minutes, no dust problems. I will use it again, in fact it may become my finish of choice. Thank you, Bill.
Edited 5/28/2007 9:38 pm ET by BilWil
Okay, where did Gretchen and Standford's messages go???
What did I miss? :)
Don. Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
I deleted mine because I realized it was just a repetition of what I had already said to you. At first I thought you had misunderstood mine. By the way, I have another 10+ years over you on using it!! Have no idea about Chas.Gretchen
Does anybody have experience with General's Arm-R Seal? How about Waterlox finishes? Any suggestions on using those finishes?
Follow the application procedure on the packaging and/or either product's respective websites. Both products are good. The companies want you to have success using their products and they have formulated them in a fashion to assure good results by following their usually very simple routines.
Always try your FULL finishing routine on a decent size piece of scrap first to rule out any expectation gap you might have about how you think the product should act and how it has in fact been formulated to act. Don't try to make a finish something it is not by a foolhardy attempt at amateur organic chemistry.
Simplicity and common sense rule when it comes to finishing. You don't have to re-invent the wheel or stray really far off the reservation to get good results. Satisfy your urge to tinker with something else other than pre-packaged varnishes.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 5/31/2007 9:25 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Both products are similar in the sense that they are wiping varnishes and can build a film of thin coats. Both have good reputations. I particularly like the Waterlox because it avoids the urethane resin in favor of phenolic resin. Phenolic is very hard and rubs out quite well, though rubbing out is easier when the coats are thicker. Waterlox is a brand name and its core products come in three flavors, Satin, Original/Sealer, and Gloss. The mellow gloss of the O/S is very attractive, in my opinion. Phenolic can yellow over time however, probably a bit more than uralkyd resins.
Have you read Wipe-On Finish Test in the online Skills & Technique - Choosing a Finish?
I have tried a number of the commercial products. I do like the Waterlox products as they provide a very nice finish and reasonable protection against moisture. I thought I would be smart and buy a couple of 4 liter cans. I then decanted this off into smaller containers. Bad move. Buy the smaller containers. This stuff gels even in a "sealed" container.
As noted by others, the amount of tung oil in the Watco and Minwax is unknown.
If you want tung oil then why not buy pure tung oil.
Lee Valley in Canada sell pure tung oil. It is fun to use, smells and feels good. It takes a bit longer to cure, and it will darken your piece.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20049&cat=1,190,42942
>> the amount of tung oil in the Watco and Minwax is unknown.Watco Danish Oil contains no tung oil. The Watco Teak Oil contains a very small amount but the major component is linseed oil. Their teak oil also contains a dollop of UV inhibitor but not enough to have any real affect on its long term durability.Minwaxy Tung Oil Finish contains no real tung oil at all. It's a linseed oil product with slightly more resin (varnish)than Watco.Howie.........
Where did you finally end up? Everyone has their own take on what works well and why. You have to make the final call.
In Taunton's Basics of Craftsmanship, Garrett Hack writes of his home made Oil-Varnish mixture. The reason I point to this article is it opens the door for you to try blending your own finish for different results. You can thin the first coat for penetration, thicken subsequent coats for build and protection. Use different oils and varnishes for colour and protection. Lots more options for you.
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