Replies

1. 
   Crunk | Sep 20, 2004 01:46am | #1

   I like to strain it through cheesecloth, otherwise the finish can be sort of lumpy.  However, the lumps can be smoothed with steel wool.

   Watco or plain BLO makes milk paint look great.  Let the paint thoroughly dry for a couple of days and then come back with Watco. 

1. 
   BG | Sep 20, 2004 03:08am | #2

   Boss,

   Is that Watco or BLO on top of the milk paint...after a few days of the milk paint drying? 

   I was also planning to poly the step stools after a drying period...do you see any problems with that on top of the Watco?

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Sep 20, 2004 03:28am | #3

   A coat of clear finish over the milk paint is the key to bringing out it's color. You can use linseed oil, danish oil (Watco), varnish including poly, water-base, or any other clear coat.

1. 
   BG | Sep 20, 2004 01:09pm | #4

   Paul, Boss,

   Thanks, I almost got myself tied up ...lol. 

2. 
   JohnWW | Sep 20, 2004 07:50pm | #5

   Be aware that applying an oil based finish over milk paint will radically change the color, making it much darker.  If you want to keep close to the original color you need to use a water based poly.

   John W.

1. 
   BG | Sep 20, 2004 08:01pm | #6

   JohnW,

   Thanks, that is important to know....time to break out the scraps and run some experiments. 

3. 
   AlbionWood | Sep 20, 2004 11:34pm | #7

   What's the advantage of milk paint?  As opposed to oil paint, for example.

   We recently visited Plimouth Plantation and had a conversation with the joiner; he is of the opinion that milk paint is "garbage" and since you have to varnish over it anyway, you should just mix pigment with BLO to get the effect you want.  I don't have any experience or opinions either way, just curious what others here think.

   "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   forestgirl | Sep 21, 2004 04:50am | #8

   Hah!  The first question that came to mind was "What does a joiner know about paint?"  Nasty, I know.

   Anyway, well-formulated milk paint is extreeeeeeeeeemly durable.  The original colors also are very attractive, being made with natural ingredients.  The notion that it "has" to be varnished is nonsense.  It can be covered with a clear coat, but it's certainly not necessary. 

   Here is a link to the history of milk paint.

   Here is a link to a Fine Woodworking article by Mike Dunbar on using milk paint.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   AlbionWood | Sep 21, 2004 06:25pm | #12

   "What does a joiner know about paint?" 

   Hardly anything... oh, wait, you mean the other guy!  :-D

   Thanks for the links.  The history article was a little confusing, though.  I've read the claim that the Egyptian stuff was milk paint, but never have seen the scientific documentation - anyone know where this information might be found?  Then there's a big jump from Ancient Egypt to the Renaissance.  There continues to be debate in certain circles about whether milk paint was in use in Northern Europe during the Middle Ages.  All I've seen in museum documentation is "egg tempera" until the 15th c. when oil paint was developed (as mentioned in the article).  Is milk paint a kind of tempera?  Is there evidence for the use of milk paint in the medieval period?

   The Plimouth guy was of the opinion that the earliest American furniture would not likely have been painted with milk paint.  For one thing, they did not have many cows yet, so milk would have been quite precious.  And he disparaged the quality of milk paint as compared to linseed oil."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   forestgirl | Sep 21, 2004 07:22pm | #13

   Looking at the article on the web site, it appears that the presence of milk paint in the tombs of Egypt is documented [see quote below].  Given that old cave drawings have also been demonstrated to be made with milk paint, I would suspect that there wasn't a linear passing of some formula from one civilization to another, but rather that it was discovered independently in several different places.  [An aside:  If the Plimouth guy thinks some scarcity of cows precludes significant use of milk paint in colonial America, wonder what he'd say about the cave dwellers, LOL!  Sounds to me like he's just tired of the whole concept of milk paint.]

   The oldest painted surfaces on earth were colored with a form of milk paint. Cave drawings and paintings made 8,000 years ago, even as old as 20,000 years ago, were made with a simple composition of milk, lime, and earth pigments. When King Tutankhamen's tomb was opened in 1924, artifacts including models of boats, people, and furniture found inside the burial chamber had been painted with milk paint.

   Because the original formula for milk paint was so simple to make and use, it was for thousands of years a major form of decoration throughout the world. Over time, and in various places, different recipes, including milk protein(casein), lime, and pigments were tried, producing varying results in durability. Many of these coatings also provided weatherproofing, while others disintegrated, leaving only a permanent stain on the painted surface. The variations included adding substances such as olive oil, linseed oil, eggs, animal glue, or waxes. Over the centuries, better recipes were found that could produce a durable coating, which could last indefinitely. The colors on the walls painted at Dendaras, even though exposed to the open air for centuries, are as vivid today as they must have been 2000 years ago.

   [quotes provided for those who haven't been to the web site].

   Obviously, the term "milk paint" is, historically, a very general one.  As currently used, though, it's generally refers to the paint used in early America (17th, 18th & 19th C.).  According to the web article, oil paint also was used on early American furniture, but by far the predominant paint was milk paint. 

   As far as whether milk paint is tempera paint, here's a squibb from the Encyclopedia:  "dry pigments are made usable by 'tempering' them with a binding and adhesive vehicle. Such painting was distinguished from fresco painting, the colours for which contained no binder."  In egg tempera, the yolk serves as a binder.  So, if it uses dry pigments with a binder, it's tempera, I guess. 

   "The Plimouth guy was of the opinion...."  I think the Plimouth guy oughta stick to expounding on joinery, LOL.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   Edited 9/21/2004 12:31 pm ET by forestgirl

   Edited 9/22/2004 12:15 pm ET by forestgirl

1. 
   AlbionWood | Sep 21, 2004 10:36pm | #14

   Where do you suppose the cave-dwellers got the milk?  Is there other evidence for animal husbandry 20,000 years ago?  I thought that sort of thing came much later.

   Sounds like time to do more research on tempera paints in the Middle Ages.  It would sure be nice to have a verifiable, documented answer to that question, as it keeps coming up.  Thanks for the info!"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

2. 
   forestgirl | Sep 22, 2004 06:23am | #17

   I don't know enough about history to answer your question about animal husbandry, but given that the cave paintings wouldn't have taken gallons of milk at a time, seems a logical source would be (drum roll) a woman!  The other possibility would have been any milk-laden prey the hunter might have brought back for food. 

   {back from Googling} -- looks like reindeer were the first animal to be domesticated by mankind.  Couldn't find a timeline for that though.  According to another source, dogs were domesticated about 14,000 years ago when we were doing our hunter-gatherer thing.  Reindeer came first, though (I guess).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   DANL | Sep 22, 2004 03:43am | #15

   Tempera is usually piment mixed with egg yolk, not milk. I think milk paint has casein (or utilized casein, a milk protein, from the milk), the milk having been mixed with lime. I think it's similar to whitewash, though my dictionary says nothing about milk being in whitewash.

   I used three coats of milk paint on a bookcase I made for my stepdaughter. Knowing it would be moved a lot and recieve quite a bit of abuse, I used three different colors with the idea that chips and wear would expose the other two colors beneath the top color. I top coated it with BLO. The oil does darken it, but really makes the color rich. I like milk paint because the color is more mottled. As far as I understand, stripping milk paint is next to impossible, but ammonia will remove it.

1. 
   forestgirl | Sep 22, 2004 05:59am | #16

   "As far as I understand, stripping milk paint is next to impossible, but ammonia will remove it."  Yep!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   Gretchen | Sep 22, 2004 05:58pm | #20

   As far as I understand, stripping milk paint is next to impossible, but ammonia will remove it."  Yep!

   At the expense of any patina the wood might have--raise the grain to high heaven and then sand back to essentially new wood.  Better to have a bit of rosiness or color in the wood and not use something like ammonia.Gretchen

3. 
   ktkamm | Sep 24, 2004 05:06am | #21

   On the subject of milk paint, I am making a small end table with a poplar base that I have first painted with a green/black combo of milk paint. I have used the crackle finish technique in the past with some success. I recently purchased a new brand of "crackling" medium and this one says to let set-up at least two hours. In the past, I have per the instructions, only let the crackling agent get tacky before applying the topcoat of milk paint. If I remember properly, it actually cautions about letting it dry for too long a period.

   As I understand it, the crackling agents are essentially hide glue. I am wondering why different products (that are probably in reality the same thing) have such varying recommendations on time from application to time of overcoating? Anybody share experience or ideas.

   Thanks in advance.

   Kieran

4. 
   forestgirl | Sep 24, 2004 06:02pm | #22

   "(that are probably in reality the same thing)"  Not sure that's a safe assumption in this case.  Sounds to me like your new crackling medium may have some kind of solvent in it.  Is it a more "modern" product made by one of the big paint companies?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

5. 
   ktkamm | Sep 26, 2004 01:56am | #23

   Thanks for the input FG. The only thing I find peculiar is that some products say to let the crackle dry completely before topcoating any others say to only wait until it gets tacky. Last evening I read similar suggestions in several books which did not make distinctions between brands of crackling mediums. The brand I am using is from The old Fashioned Milk Paint Co.

   As with anything else, I think the safest thing to do will be to make up test pieces and apply the topcoat at varying times. It sounds as though humidity also plays in to the final outcome also.

   Kieran

6. 
   James1 | Oct 30, 2004 12:27am | #24

   Wow you are supposed to put a finish on milk paint, I built a tool cabinet for my workshop as a self training thing and to make something useful to boot, and painted it with the mustard colour milk paint.  It looks essentially the same now as it did four years ago with no finish.

   Also excuse my lack of knowledge but what is BLO?

7. 
   JohnWW | Oct 30, 2004 01:59am | #25

   It took me a while, but I finally realized that BLO meant boiled linseed oil.  There are several other acronyms that I still haven't guessed the meaning of, I'll trade you a definition of "BLO" for the meaning of "LOL".

   I don't think it is necessary to top coat milk paint with either an oil or a polyurethane finish, milk paint is a pretty tough finish all by itself.  I think the added oil or poly makes the paint resistant to dirt and easier to clean off, but in many applications, such as your's, this isn't a problem.  Oil radically changes the soft chalky colors of milk paint, I don't care for the darkening effect.  Water based poly apparently doesn't have much of an effect on the color, but I haven't used it to confirm this.

   John W.  

8. 
   AJinNZ | Oct 30, 2004 01:00pm | #27

   My understanding of LOL is 'laughing out loud'.

   One of my favorites is SWMBO. :-) 

   Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.

   DW

9. 
   forestgirl | Oct 30, 2004 06:39am | #26

   No, you don't need to put finish over milkpaint, but people often do for pieces that will get alot of handling, sitting, etc.  Personally, I prefer to wax it if I do anything, but then I've only used it on small stuff.  One of the enchanting things about antique furniture still in its original milk-paint suit is the different colors that show through where various coats of paint have worn.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   Edited 10/29/2004 11:40 pm ET by forestgirl

3. 
   Gretchen | Sep 22, 2004 05:56pm | #19

   The Plimouth guy was of the opinion that the earliest American furniture would not likely have been painted with milk paint.  For one thing, they did not have many cows yet, so milk would have been quite precious.  And he disparaged the quality of milk paint as compared to linseed oil.

   My confidence in Plimouth Plantation's hiring of knowledgeable people is TOTALLY shaken.  He is ridiculous.Gretchen

2. 
   Gretchen | Sep 22, 2004 05:53pm | #18

   Hah!  The first question that came to mind was "What does a joiner know about paint?"  Nasty, I know.

   Anyway, well-formulated milk paint is extreeeeeeeeeemly durable.  The original colors also are very attractive, being made with natural ingredients.  The notion that it "has" to be varnished is nonsense.  It can be covered with a clear coat, but it's certainly not necessary.

   True, true, and true!!  Actually the word other than "extremely" would be "bulletproof".  Just TRY to remove it (sacrilege that was unfortunately performed a lot in the 60's to get to the beautiful pine underneath!!).Gretchen

4. 
   forestgirl | Sep 21, 2004 04:55am | #9

   BG, see my reply above that has the MIke Dunbar article link in it.  Also, Old Fashioned Milk Paint folks make a clear coat, though using their brand isn't mandatory.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   BG | Sep 21, 2004 01:24pm | #10

   FG,

   I did glance at the Mike Dunbar article when I hit the web site a few days ago...with your link I read it throughly, it's worth a good read, thanks.  Everything has gone smoothly so far...two coats applied....and I've applied some Seal-a-Cell (tung oil, ureathane from General) to a sample...letting things dry.... 

   The one concern I have is trying to protect these stools from stains (they are designed to be used in the kitchen) and rapid moisture absorbsion.  I'm sure the milk paint dose little to retard or stop moisture...and the tops of the stools are solid (one piece)11"x13"x3/4" planks of old pine...pinned at the top with dowels and a figure 8 at the bottom.  The base is all through dovetails so I'm not concerned there.

   After reading Dunbar's article I'm much less worried about protecting the finish from ware...actually looking forward to it...lol

1. 
   JohnWW | Sep 21, 2004 05:36pm | #11

   No finish is all that effective as a moisture seal, so other than coating the top and bottom surfaces of the seat with equal amounts of finish you don't have to worry that milk paint is a better or worse vapor barrier. 

   If you are worrying about staining and liquid water spilled on the seats affecting the wood, your choice of a top coat will determine how effective the protection is, a polyurethane being one of the most effective at completely sealing the surface.  Oil and oil/varnish mixes won't be as effective and may have some problems with slight tackiness when sat on for long periods.

   John W.