Long time reader, first time poster.
Over the next 2-3 years I plan to retire from my day job and focus on my woodworking. I’m not certain yet whether that means it will be a commercial operation or I will end up doing ad-hoc projects via word of mouth but suffice it to say I will be in my shop working for 8+ hours most days. To that end, I will be moving to a new and larger shop location and will be upgrading my machinery to accommodate the bigger sized lumber I find myself using these days.
My question for the forum is about the merits of buying and restoring old American made machines vs buying new machinery. Performance is my primary criteria. I don’t mind restoring older machinery or “paying-up” for the newer stuff if it is going to get me improved reliability, accuracy and overall performance. Secondarily, I would really like to own American machines and am willing to make sacrifices to do so if I can get equal or better performance vs something made overseas.
For the sake of clarity, this is not a financial decision for me and would prefer to keep the focus on maximizing performance.
My question for the forum is which pieces of machinery would you buy new and from which manufacturer and which pieces would you look for an older model that either needs restored or is operational? I am looking specifically at table saws, jointers and planers. I have an old iron shaper. Are there any other machines worth considering?
As it stands now, I’ve managed to located two Oliver 20” jointers, one a #12 and one a 166 both from the 40s, I believe. I also know of a guy that has a Newman #60 16” jointer and Whitney #32 30” planer. Table saws I haven’t spent as much time researching or locating as the safety features on a Saw Stop are compelling but I am open to something else.
Thanks in advance!
Replies
Fixing up old machinery is a lot of time and commitment. If that's what you enjoy, it should be a lot of fun.
If your intention is to make things out of wood, and make money, skip the old iron. If it were me, going into production, and I had the room, I'd go straight to the Hammer machines. Big saw, big slider; and a big jointer-planer.
Thanks for the reply.
As it relates to the money making aspect of it, that is very far down the list for me. Any business I do will be a byproduct of my woodworking affliction, not an intended consequence.
For now, I do have a long list of projects to tackle. That being said, heading into retirement and moving into a new shop will give me ample time to do these alongside rehab/restore any old machinery.
That being said, for me the priorities are
1. Performance/ease of use
2. Reliability
3. American made
4. Safety
5. Aesthetics
Some other stuff
22. Money
I’ve looked at the Northfield stuff and it looks nice, I just don’t know much about how it performs vs old iron.
If you’re restoring the tools yourself then older (I’m talking turn of the century) tends to be more reliable purely because as you restore them you learn how they work and thus what and how to fix them.
Are you feeling OK John?? You just advocated the purchase of a (gasp!) JOINTER?!?!
For a production shop, sure. For a hobbyist, totally unnecessary.
"Totally unnecessary", you say? Well, perhaps I should stop using mine and make a geet big jig for just the thicknesser (you say planer) part underneath the jointer (actually "the planer" part) on top to do the initial flattening and edging? :-)
Cal me a foolish ole traditionalist but I feel that planer-thicknesser machines (what you call a combined planer-jointer) were invented and are used for a good reason.
Still, at least you're recommending proper European-designed WW machines such as those from Hammer, rather than those funny old US things with built-in dangerousness. If only you could buy Scheppach stuff over there - 99% as good as Hammer but much less to buy.
They do a good planer-thicknesser, Scheppach. I've had mine for over 20 years and it's still planing and thicknessing away accurately, with only one capacitor and one drive belt needing renewal in all that time. It cost me £600 although the current version is a bit more than that now. The old ones go second-hand for a good price, though.
Lataxe
I have a thicknesser. I have no need for sleds or jigs for it. I've gotten by without a jointer my whole life. I don't find having one is required, or even desirable.
Do you buy you stock flat or do you hand plane it so?
I buy rough lumber. I reject badly twisted boards. It's not worth the trouble.
Cupped boards are fine. They'll plane flat in the thicknesser. I will very occasionally take some thick shavings to flatten a side before the thicknesser. But pretty rarely.
Step one though is breaking lumber down to just over my needed length. If I need a bunch of 2 foot parts, there's no need to run a 10 foot board through the thicknesses. If a 10 foot board has a wee bit of twist, a 2 or three foot board cut from it is pretty dang flat. Same goes for ripping. If you need 2 inch wide rails and stiles, they'll be flatter than the original 7 inch wide board.
I'm no expert on new stuff. I filled my shop with old iron when I started in the late '70s. There wasn't much import stuff on the market. I was an ex-bicycle mechanic and my partner was an ex-auto mechanic. Working on metal was not a problem for us. We also didn't have a lot of money for new stuff. So a lot was bought at auctions and from local people in the wood business.
As to your target machines:
Planer: I bought 3 planers and sold the first two after rehabbing them. My current planer is a Buss 26"x8" industrial planer, probably similar to your Whitney. I paid $500 for it. It was badly worn. I had the feed rollers turned, the pressure bar ground, and the central section of the bed ground. It came with an overhead knife grinder; I re-machined the ways of the grinder to straighten them out. That was about 40 years ago. It had left the factory in 1939 with a 550 volt 3 phase motor. Luckily, someone else had had the motor rewound for 220 volt 3 phase. So check the critical parts for wear so you know what you are getting into, and what power you will need. For that effort, I got a life-time machine that works quickly and accurately.
Jointer: I have both a 24"x72" Bentel and Margedant and an 8"x72" Indiana Tool Works. I converted the B&M from Babbet bearings to ball bearings, as I needed to turn the cutterhead shaft because of uneven wear. The ITW still runs fine on Babbets. Here the critical question is how much if any table wear? My B&M has some detectable wear in the middle of the outfeed table, but I use it mostly for flattening wide boards/glue-ups, so a few thousandths is not critical. The ITW is used for both flattening and edge jointing. I just make sure that the fence is perpendicular to the outfeed table. I sometimes find it helpful to finish a glue joint edge with a #7 or #8 jointer plane to get just the right amount of spring in the joint. The parallelogram jointers should be fairly easy to get the tables reground if needed. My ITW jointer was very poorly set up when I got it; scary, in fact. (Both tables were way too far from the cutter head.) It works fine and is tame now that it is set up properly.
Table saw: I would probably go with the SawStop, tho I've lived safely for over 40 years with a Powermatic #65, the precursor of the Model 66. I would go with the top end model, not the contractor level. Hand surgery is both expensive and limited in what it can repair.
I have a 36" 3 hp bandsaw, which I use for ripping out rough blanks, and for resawing. Here if the saw is functioning reasonably well, old iron is fine. You might end up getting better guides for it (or making better guards, as some of them don't have much.) I also have a 14" Rockwell (Delta) that I keep a narrow blade on for curved cutting. The big bandsaw runs on Babbet bearings, which is fine for the low speed of the wheels.
I also have a Hammond Glider Trim-o-Saw, which is a sliding table cross cut table saw, originally made for the printing business to cut lead. It comes with a 6.5" blade; we were able to put an 8" blade on it. Highly recommended for accurate cross-cut and angle work. We have both the adjustable end-stop and quick clamp accessories, which are both great to have. Check it out...
I also have an Onsrud overarm router (rather than a CNC router), big and medium shapers, Powermatic 90 lathe, Walker-Turner radial arm saw, Powermatic tenoner, Powermatic belt/disk sander, Atlas drill press, and an oscillating spindle sander. Also an 18"x54" metal lathe, and a 6"x18" surface grinder. We never managed to combine at the same time the money for a Bridgeport mill and a good deal on one.
In general, figure out the critical wear areas, and determine if any wear is unacceptable, and if so, can it be repaired/remachined. By the way, I have always had the goal of excellent functionality, not aesthetic beauty. I have never disassembled and painted each piece after smoothing the castings, tho some do enjoy that. My machines look their age.
I can't speak to the value of the high end European machines. However, I've been around long enough to know that the Asian imports don't always have long term parts support.
I hope this helps.
Really helpful, the Buss planers are supposedly the best, so if i find one, I will likely go that route.
if budget allows, hard to beat Northfield. New "Old Arn" fully ready to go. All the old stuff, when tuned up, is way better in my book than any of the new stuff. It is the "when tuned up" that may be an effort to go there from the condition an inexpensive "Old Arn" machine is found. If you don't mind that work, or have someone to do it for you, you will not be disappointed.
This is what I figured - the old iron tuned-up is pretty much unbeatable. Just arduous to get it there.
Well, Northfield still manufactures in the US . They make great reliable brand new " old iron" machines. They are costly but so are the better European machines. Northfield and RBI are maybe the only companies that I know of manufacturing in the US.
If you have the space and can accommodate 3phase machinery there are terrific deals out there. The machines are too large usually for home/ or small shops and industry doesn't want old analog, no tax advantage machines. Almost no one wants those machines and their value is in scrap metal.
Parts on old machines can be a problem so I think if you go the old iron route look for machines that there were a lot of them manufactured. Millions of Delta machines for example, large or small, enough to make an aftermarket or parting out business for someone else. There is no guarantee that even newer machines will have parts available in the distant or even sooner future. I have a Grizzly jointer/ planer combo machine about 10/12 years old. Grizzly offered that machine as recently as 2015. You can still find sites advertising them but when you get into it they say " out of stock". A while back I realized that Grizzly offered no critical parts, listed as obsolete or discontinued on their website..... then the other day it happened, a jamb caused an unrepairable part to disintegrate. No help in anyway from Grizzly , no Grizzy aftermarket for this machine! Hours of detective work later I believe I discovered that my Grizzly was manufactured by a German company called Scheppach and was sold in Europe as a Scheppach or a KITY but no one so far at Grizzly or Scheppach can confirm that for me. Photos and schematic drawings I found are identical. A supplier in France has what I believe will be my part but they are like " Whats a Grizzly? " and they can send me the part but with no guarantees and no return. This for to me is what I consider my new machine! I will order the part and if it doesnt work one of my very few 20th century machines has nowhere to go but the dump! So, if your old enough purchasing a "lifetime" new machine might workout for you!
Thanks, that is very helpful insight!
If it's not a matter of finances, I would say go with new. That way you are spending time working wood, not refurbishing. I would definitely do the Sawstop. I have one and love it. Your fingers are worth the extra money!
If you are looking at production work, I would think the newer machines would be better suited.
That being said, I have several machines in my shop, but in the last few years, have been making more specialty, 18th century furniture, and use mostly all hand tools. I've found the hand tools are easier to use, don't require jigs, near the maintenance (other than sharpening), more quiet and safer. More relaxing and quieter also.
Good luck with retirement. I did it four years ago. It does take some adjustments to having a new routine and outlook.
in my recently built retirement shop, i went with mostly new, and i have been pleasantly surprised with the quality, performance, service, ease of use and percision of new powermatic tools. i went with large (24in bandsaw etc), and they are a pleasure to work with, and equal in every way to my hammer A3-41.
Thanks so much for the reply
Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. Definitely valuable information.
If anybody has an opinion on a specific brand and model of old iron jointer or planer that they’ve used, I am all ears.
I have and use a ca. 1920s 16" Crescent jointer. Don't think there's an actual model number. FWIW, I also have a newer Jet 8" jointer that I use for narrower stock and am debating between putting a helical head on the Crescent, or selling both and buying a new used 16" or larger helical head jointer.
As to your earlier question of performance/ease of use, it has babbit bearings so you need to make sure the wicks have oil. Few squirts each time I use it. Converting to ball bearings in this case is a real pain and not worth it for me. Mine was a line belt machine so I swapped out the 6" wide pulley for a triple belt pulley and installed a 5hp 220v Marathon motor. Need to make sure you have a breaker that can handle the full cold amperage load as getting a 75lb head turning in the winter when the oil is thick is a chore (I either start the head spinning by pulling the belts by hand (sorry OSHA, no belt guard) or turn it on and off quickly before leaving it on longer.
In terms of performance it's great, but that was after many hours of set up, making sure the tables were co-planar (no easy feat), fence square, blades sharp and properly adjusted, etc. You have to do this on any machine but it's a bit trickier and more tedious on old iron. I touch up the blades in place often rather than taking them out to resharpen. Did that once... I also only take light cuts, 1/64" to 1/32". Yes, I can take deeper cuts, it'll hog off 1/4" without blinking, but it will also blow up a board when it encounters too much of something it doesn't like such as a big knot.
Speaking of safety and guards. The original blade guard was long gone and had been replaced with a 1940s aftermarket guard that was more dangerous to use than nothing at all (which is how I use it, again apologies to OSHA). FWIW, I also had a 1940s 6" Atlas jointer with a guard. The one time I needed it, the guard didn't do what it was supposed to. Little did I know, the guard return spring had snapped. Moral of the old iron safety story: while all machines require maintenance, old iron requires at least as much if not more than new. And you'll either need to be lucky to find parts, be skilled enough to make them, or make friends with a machinist.
Keeping on the safety trend, in many cases, you'll also need to come up with your own dust collection attachments. Not a big deal but something to keep in mind.
For the record, I'm not against old iron but I am a pragmatist. Don't expect any "conveniences" from old machinery. If you buy big iron, it's industrial machinery that really can't be compared to new non-industrial machines. Old homeowner grade iron may have aesthetic appeal but I'd get new before old. I still use an older Delta DC-380 15" Delta planer and just put away a 1950s Atlas bench top drill press. I'll be replacing the former soon and already did the latter. Hope this all helps. (Picture is when the jointer first arrived home and is the reason my shop moved out of the garage and into a new building, lol.)
" john_c2 | Oct 19, 2023 03:50am | I don't find having one is required, or even desirable."
I had to laugh at the john_c2 and _mj_ exchange. Apparently there's a history here I haven't picked up on. ;-)
This is one of the most valuable things about a woodworking forum. You get different opinions from people who do different things differently and willingly share their experiences.
The jointer is the first tool I use when preparing stock. It creates my reference surface for all that follows. That is just how my woodworking methods developed. That doesn't make it right or wrong. ;-)
To the OP: If American made is important, that's great and I applaud you. If it is a requirement you will have a long row to hoe to outfit a working shop. Old Arn will be your primary source and may involve getting things working before you can use them.
If Made in the USA is just a preference you will have an easier time. The decision making will involve rendering down many posts, opinions, and the occasional rant. Apply the data to your requirements and make your decision.
Hammer, Powermatic, and Grizzly are all the right answer. It just depends on the question. My new shop was part of my retirement plans and I have been very happy. Good luck and enjoy the journey.
Whoa. Headroom. I just split my noggin open on a low hanging pipe in my shop. For the gazillionth time. I can't imagine having all that space. Nice.
There was a discussion about this on a podcast recently, and I think they have it mostly right.
The reason many say "old iron" is better is because they are comparing old industrial level machinery to new hobby level equipment. Since the prices can be similar, some feel this is better.
If price isn't an issue, new industrial level machinery is almost always going to be better than buying old stuff and trying to repair it. That being said, what makes sense to buy depends on what you enjoy, what kind of projects you will be doing, available space, there is still probably some budget issues as well, etc.
Lataxe - what model Scheppach combo machine do you have? I believe that my Grizzly is a rebranded Scheppach hms 2600ci ,either that or stolen by Grizzly outright. This from photos and exploded views for the two machines. I haven't been able to confirm that either from Grizzly or Scheppach. As a Grizzly I cannot get parts but I can get parts shipped from Europe for a Scheppach. Specifically I am looking for what Grizzly calls a " toothed belt wheel" and Scheppach ,or rather the parts people in France, calls a " clutch pully" . I can take my chances and order the part and hope it fits. If it is the same i might then just order some other critical parts just to have them. As a Scheppach owner maybe you could help me out in some way in identifying my machine. I don't see any way to private message on this forum. Hope you see this.
Hi Pant,
The model I have is the HMS 260, with the 10" width capacity for both planer and thicknesser. Mine is the model with a steel planer (top) bed rather than that with a cast iron top that came out a year or few later but was otherwise identical.
You can download the HMS 260 manual from various on line places, although you may have to go through various procedures trying to sell you their publishing services. I have the paper copy of the manual so haven't ever downloaded the pdf myself.
This is a huge area, and there is of course no right answer.
Buying second-hand locally-made machines has almost no advantage - none at all if the company no longer exists or has moved overseas.
Most of the 'old iron' you can get is old industrial machinery - you are buying what was once intended to be used heavily, and with replacement of wearing parts can still be 'good as new' with a bit of a spruce-up. The problem is that it is heavy, often large and requires significant investment of time to restore.
Consider the 20" planer. It's far bigger than most wood you will thickness but not wide enough to plane a table top. The space it takes up cannot be used for anything else so ask yourself how often you have really needed to thickness more than 12" but less than 20" - it might be worth it to get a smaller machine. Of course, if you are doing vast amounts of wood then a heavier duty machine is needed, but then you might find the better features of newer tools valuable - my Hammer A3 41 (16") can handle vast amounts of wood, has good dust collection, a spiral head and has the advantage of a jointer included. It is also quiet, reasonably compact and can reliably thickness to within 0.1mm of the thickness set on the mechanical dial indicator. I've owned it for 2 years and have yet to thickness more than an 8" wide piece of wood on it.
Thing is, at your stage, you will probably want to change and develop your shop as you discover which aspects of woodwork suit you best. What seems ideal now may not be so later, so there is much to be said for buying stuff you can shift easily in your local market if it turns out not to be what you want. A battered 3 phase workhorse from a company that went out of business 30 years ago, needs a HIAB to deliver it, four different kinds of oil or grease and a socket set to adjust it is going to be more challenging to move than a 13" deWalt lunchbox planer.
Just to throw another 2-cents toward "old iron", the refurbishing process can make you much more familiar with your tool than is likely from just reading the manual. Proper set-up and and on-going maintenance is key for any tool (power or not), but often gets overlooked or glossed over in the rush to get a new tool out of the box and hear it run. Also, one tends to look more closely at a used machine to correct faults yet expect a new one to be "bug-free".
Having said that, be sure the safety features of your used candidates have not been lost along the way, or plan to renew them as part of your re-hab.
I've spent a lot of time on a unisaw and more recently sawstop. spinning a crank handle to get the blade to 45 degrees is a chore. wide cross cuts or long rips are more and more of a challenge as one gets older.
i haven't used a panel saw much. However, pressing a button and watching a digital read out to view the angle sounds pretty nice. sad to say that these electronic components would not be made in usa.
I will just confirm that the Sawstop is worth getting for the tablesaw. It's safety feature plus its a well made machine. I've had mine for about 6 or 7 years and its been great.
First, I agree that the Sawstop is a good idea.
Regarding old or new bandsaws, I have owned a Yates 17" bandsaw from the 30's I believe and two new bandsaws. My experience with the Yates is what led to my purchase of a new Laguna.
First, dust collection was terrible. Effort was made to enhance the dc but it was a waste of time. Second, finding a satisfactory guide setup was disappointing. Third, I could not find parts anywhere. I was eventually able to cobble together a working bandsaw but never satisfied with its performance.
BOTTOM LINE: It is a personal choice. Only you can decide if it is worth it FOR YOU.
Lots of people do not have the skills to restore or repair an old machine. They will probably tell you that you should spend $$ on something new.
Then there is the person (like me) that has a shop full of old tools he restored and can maintain without much effort. They will tell you why you should buy old tools.
If you have the skills to restore one.
If you enjoy the process of restoring or working on old machines.
I THINK you can get some great heavy duty machines for much less money.
If you have 3 phase in some shape or form, suddenly there is a much bigger selection and these machines are typically a lot cheaper. Not much demand for 3 phase machines.
I don't care what you use, it is your choice. But I only have one new machine and that was purchased before I discovered old iron and OWW.org. I acquired a 1946-ish cabinet shop full or tools. Had to restore most of them but after using them I see no advantage to new one.
Machine designs, aside from the SawStop have not made any major improvements. The are basically the same. The old are often much heavier made with better quality. I love the mass of a big cast iron machine. Just more pleasurable to use. But they all cut the wood pretty much the same.