Replies

1. 
   lowangle | Dec 21, 2005 01:54am | #1

   I have the same plane and have been trying to lap the sole  and the back of the blade flat and also hone the blade.  I have a little more than 5 hours into it and am getting quite frustrated by the slow progress.  I started with 90 grit silicon carbide on a glass plate and worked up to 600 grit and then went on to waterstones to polish.  The finer grits showed how much work still needed to be done.  The plane is a 60's or 70's vintage - made in USA.  I don't know if it is worth continuing to try restoring this.

   
   

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   Edited 12/20/2005 6:46 pm ET by lowangle

1. 
   highfigh | Dec 28, 2005 12:40am | #5

   Keep going with the coarser grit. Use a magic marker to see where the sole needs more material removed. You don't want a glass surface on a plane, you want to bottom to be flat but not glass-like. If it is that smooth, you're going to have a hard time getting it to move once the wood is evenly planed. Use 90 grit till it's flat, then if you want to make it smoother, go to 220. It's not like flattening the back of a chisel or plane iron, where you want it to be as smooth as possible. Fighting the suction/friction is the reason corrugated planes are made.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   lowangle | Dec 28, 2005 02:22am | #6

   Thanks for the reply.  I have been at it for another 2 1/2 hours bringing me well over 7 hours.  I did put marker on the bottom and after some more lapping I saw what I knew - there isn't a single area on the sole that is flat from one side to the other.  The plane iron is bent and the cap iron is slightly bent also.  I may put more time into it but am strongly considering a LN #4.  I spoke with them and they recommend a 4 1/2 instead.  That may be a little too rich for my blood.

1. 
   John_D | Dec 28, 2005 02:46am | #7

   I'll just say I love my LN 4 1/2.  It was a bit pricey, but it's something I'll use for decades, then pass along to one of my kids.  I'll bet it's worth more in 20 years than it is today, too.

   As my plane shelf starts to fill with iron and brass, I'm starting to see them as works of art in and of themselves.My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

2. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 28, 2005 03:31am | #8

   lowangle

   If it makes you feel any better, I just restored an old Bedrock 606 last week.  The plane was a rusty hunk of junk when I started, and somebody sprayed this black "gunk" all over it.  My only disappointment is that I took no "before" photos.  Over 3 days, I spent 8 hours lapping the sole to finally get it flat.  I always use red magic marker in front and behind the mouth, and a squiggle down the middle touching both sides.  90 grit first, then I switched to 180, and finally 340.

   Well, you should see it now.  I filed the frog and it's mating surface with a bastard mill file, and all three "metal" sides are now rust and gunk free, and very flat.  She takes whisper shavings, even with that lousy iron from Stanley.  I ordered a new hock blade and chip breaker, which I have installed on all my other Bedrocks, and know that it will improve the plane tremendously.

   Keep at it, you'll get it.

   Jeff

   BTW  I love my LN 4 1/2 Yorkie, and so will you.  You'll forget what you paid for it soon, but you'll have it for the rest of your life.

    

1. 
   lowangle | Dec 28, 2005 03:41am | #10

   Despite all the problems I am able to get feathery shavings with that nice swooshing sound.  In fact, it is leaving a smoother surface against the grain on a piec of scrap cherry than with the grain.  Though I like the idea of the 4 1/2 would I be better having the 4 to start?

2. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 28, 2005 08:24pm | #13

   lowangle

   I was introduced to hand planes using a #4 Stanley.  I was taught how to tune it, and it made a world of difference.  Actually, the "trouble-maker" was Jeff Miller.  He's a contributor to FWW magazine, including an article in the latest issue, and also runs a woodworking school in Chicago.

   For me, the addiction was immediate.  For you, I'd say you're on the right track.  Just be more stubborn than the plane itself.  I've discovered over the years that almost any plane, if not all, can be improved greatly with some work and a wee bit of tenacity on your part.

   I truly believe that it is important to learn how to tune and use an old plane correctly before spending money on the new, more expensive ones.  Once your knowledge base grows, you'll appreciate the newer versions much more, and understand better exactly what they can and can't do.

   Jeff

   Edited 12/29/2005 10:24 pm ET by JeffHeath

3. 
   lowangle | Dec 28, 2005 11:25pm | #17

   Jeff, Is there a way to reduce the amount of play in the depth adjuster on a Bailey #4 or is it just inherent in the design?  I have to turn it just over 2 revolutions for any blade movement.  I've taken the plane apart, filed as necessary, lubed and reassembled.  The play in the knob doesn't hinder performance but makes it tricky to get the right advance on the iron.  BTW it seems as though the 4 1/2 is the preferred smoother over the 4.  Do you agree?

   Thanks for your input

4. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 29, 2005 08:46pm | #18

   I believe I read in Hack's Hand Plane Book that you can squeeze the the depth mechanism behind the brass nut to help remove some slop, but I don't think I'd try it, because of fear of breaking it.  Bedrock frogs are not easy to come by, and not cheap either.  Plus, there's no guaranty that a frog off another plane will fit yours.  If I were you, I'd just deal with the sloppy adjuster.  One thing to remember when setting the depth, is that you want to back up the blade out of the cut.  Then, slowly creep up on the shaving thickness you desire by turning the brass nut out.  Once you reach your desired depth of cut, you will create resistance to the work pushing the blade back up.  If you have set the blade a little too deep, and back it out a little, the tendency is for the blade to move just a little more from the pressure of planing, because you're in "blade depth removal" mode, instead of insertion mode.  I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

   As far as 4 vs. 4 1/2 goes, I have a 604 and LN 4, and a LN 4 1/2.  I use them all.  For table tops, I like the extra width and weight of the 4 1/2.  I also hate to stop in the middle of a job to sharpen, so I just reach for another smoother.  When I'm done, I re-sharpen all 3 at the same time.

   Jeff

5. 
   highfigh | Dec 29, 2005 09:15pm | #19

   What about removing the frog and checking the brass nut for wear? If the threads are worn on the brass, it'll be really sloppy. That and the gap between the adjuster fork and the brass will allow a lot of play. I would also consider using a flat washer on each side of the brass to take up some of the play. Since the adjuster is a casting, I wouldn't try to bend it unless it was red hot, and that would obviously remove any remaining japanning. As Jeff said, to keep the play from causing problems, always set the depth in the direction of going deeper. Backing it out will always allow the iron to move up.Has anyone thought about adding set screws to keep the iron from moving sideways, like the ones on L-V planes? That seems like a great idea, to me. Takes out one more variable.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

6. 
   philip | Dec 30, 2005 10:22am | #20

   There is another cause of slop, or lost motion: the slot in the back iron. If this is not a close fit with the tip of the yoke then one will be winding away before any movement happens-either way. One can cure this (within reason) by peening with a blunted centre punch to make this slot match the yoke tip.
   Another culprit is the pivot hole in the yoke- harder to fix, but I have done it by fitting a new pin of larger diameter, after enlarging the housing holes to suit-tricky because it is cast iron and not much meat to play with .
   As for the brass nut and stem threads-I have not found these to be overly worn, because brass and steel are a good combination for wear purposes. As has been mentioned, one can get lucky and fit a washer or shim in the groove to compensate for a poor fit there.
   At one stage the yokes were not cast, but made from laminated sheet steel-quite useless, hence they were not around for long-better to throw that away rather than squeeze it. Obviously the cast ones are not to be squeezed or hammered.
   Another cure is to get a yoke and take it to a foundry, ask them to make some castings,which will be "fatter", and then one can file/grind to suit. I inherited a number of yokes of different sizes from a planeophile, so I just replace if it is needed.
   Unfortunately the design is not conducive to minimal lost motion, so if you can reduce this to a half turn or so you are doing well, but the two turns mentioned is waaaaaaaay too much.
   Hope this helps.Philip Marcou

7. 
   papanick | Jan 21, 2006 01:43am | #21

   Actually- you can use the thicker iron from Lee Valley for their Veritas planes. I put one in my 605-1/2, and only needed to file the lateral adjuster a bit.

   I figured it was worth a try since I had to grind the blade to 2-3/16 anyway.The older I get, the better I was....

3. 
   highfigh | Dec 28, 2005 03:35am | #9

   Don't look for perfection, look for a good average flatness. If you want to save time and get it a lot closer in a minimum of time, find a machine shop (or highschool metal shop that takes in odd pieces) and have them grind it flat and square. Machinists, being the picky sort that they are, will usually get it so close you won't care if it's within a gnat's butt. They can tell you if there's enough metal to do it without affecting it's ability to remain straight, too. Otherwise, look for another one that's straighter and keep this one for parts. If you look around, you can find some really nice ones. I missed out on a Stanley 5-1/2 last week on ebay by about 3 seconds. I bid $33 and it went for $34. It's mint. There are some others that look pretty good. "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

   Edited 12/27/2005 7:37 pm by highfigh

1. 
   lowangle | Dec 28, 2005 03:45am | #11

   Do the people selling old planes on ebay generally know what kind of shape they're in or do you just chaulk it up as an inexpensive crap shoot?

2. 
   highfigh | Dec 28, 2005 03:55am | #12

   Most, if not all, have pretty decent photos of them from different angles. Some of them are really sweet, like the one I missed out on. It was a low-knob Bailey, so that makes it pre-1930's if it's all original. Even if it's not, it was exceptionally clean and there's recourse if it's not what was described. Some look like crap, but should still be recoverable. If it is damaged, they should say something about it. It was the first thing I actually bid on at ebay, so my inexperience showed, in all of it's glory. Jeff- where did you get your newest one and how did you clean it, other than sanding and filing? My #4 Bailey has surface rust and the black is pretty thin compared with most of the planes I have seen. It was made in England and IIRC, those had some differences. High knob, no patent dates, but it has the Stanley logo on the lever cap. Most of the plating on the cap is gone but the metal is sound. The castings look great, though.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

3. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 28, 2005 08:38pm | #14

   Jim

   I got the 606 and 605 at a local garage sale.  I saw an add in the local paper for 'old woodworking tools' and took a 10 minute ride.  At first glance, they were extremely rough.  The blades, chipbreakers, and lever caps are completely rusted.

   I cleaned them first with a little kerosene.  The kerosene got most of the rubberized black gunk off the japaning, tote, and knob.  Then I went to work with 80 grit sandpaper strips on a 3 foot long piece of granite I have for this very purpose.  Once I got down to 'rusty metal' (lol) I colored the sole with red magic marker, and kept going until it was all gone.

   I didn't use feeler guages, but before I started, there was quite a dish from heel to toe on the 606.  The 605 took less than 30 minutes to get flat.  I really don't think the 606 was ever tuned in it's lifetime, because the blade is full length, allbeit completely pitted now.

   Even with the old blade, which I flattened and sharpened, it works great.  It's definately a keeper. 

   The lady I got them from had no clue what they were.  They were her husbands, and she said he hadn't used them in a very long time.  (Quite evident by their condition.)  She wanted 15 bucks apiece.  I just couldn't live with myself, so I gave her 60 bucks for both.  Still, quite the bargain.

   I love this thread, by the way, and am glad you started it.  I check it daily.

   Jeff

4. 
   highfigh | Dec 28, 2005 10:19pm | #15

   How heavy is the Japanning on your Stanley planes? As I said before, my #4 is pretty thin and there's some surface rust on the top, but none on the sides and sole. It doesn't have the gloss of most Stanley planes I have seen, and based on the high knob with the ring at the base, I think it's from the late 20's or early 30's. The iron is kind of rough at the top, but below the outline of the lever cap, it's clean. Basically, I would like to clean the top and avoid re-Japanning it. The adjuster works smoothly, so I may just disassemble it, clean everything, finish flattening it, clean up the sides and wax it. Getting back to the original question, can you list the steps you took and maybe post some pictures now that it's done? Did you stop after the 80 grit or did you go finer? What about the sides? Wax, Top Cote, Boe Shield or ? My #7 has is dished in front of the mouth- I will put a feeler gauge in there to find out how bad, but since I don't have any 80 grit Silicon Carbide, I need to get some. Do you use regular sheets or do you have rolls of sandpaper?
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

5. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 28, 2005 11:05pm | #16

   Jim

   I use rolls of self adhesive sandpaper. I get them at woodcraft.  They're porter cable brand.  After 80 grit, I go to 180 grit, and then, finally, to 340 grit.  I have found that any polishing beyond this point makes no improvement in the quality of the tool.

   I use to use silicon carbide and kerosene, but I didn't like the fumes, and hated the mess!!

   I'll post some pics later of the finished 606 and 605.

   The area in front of the mouth is the most critical to be dead flat and with no nicks.  More so with a smoother set with a fine mouth, but I like to take the sole down to the point where this area is very flat, and the mouth edge is very crisp.  I also like to put a slight bevel all the way around the perimeter of the plane, so I don't make any 'tracks' on a table top.

   The japanning on all my bedrocks is remarkably good.  I guess I just got lucky, because I really am not in it for the collectibility of the planes.  The worst one I have is probably 75-80 %.  I have a 603, 604, 604 1/2, two 605's, 605 1/2C (round side), two 606's, and a 607.  I'm in search of the ever elusive 605 1/4, but refuse to pay 500 bucks for one, and the 608.  Maybe some day!!!(sigh!)

   Jeff

2. 
   hammer1 | Dec 21, 2005 06:32am | #2

   Mike, known as PlaneWood around here, is one of the resident plane restorers, here's his website.
   http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mike_in_katy/PlaneWood/Default.htm

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   Troy | Dec 23, 2005 01:35am | #4

   Boy talk about turning a pigs ear into a silk purse. Troy

3. 
   oak | Dec 21, 2005 08:09pm | #3

   another..

   http://www.rexmill.com/