Would it be better to buy an older 1978-built Powermatic 66 and replace the motor or buy the newest version? I have an opportunity to buy an older model but need some advice on going this way to purchase; would be for home/serious hobby use.
Thanks,
Brian
Replies
Why would you have to replace the motor? Three phase? You would also have to replace the heaters in the starter...no big deal. How old is old? I would not get one with the old style jet lock fence myself. On a new one you get a warranty.
I would seriously consider a slider for a saw. Can't beat it for sheet goods and panels. It would eliminate the need for a radial arm saw and miter saw. To me a cabinet saw is only half a saw but then I've used sliders so it's a whole new experience for most folks. There's Robland, Rojek, Minimax and a slew of others to consider.
Edited 11/17/2006 10:47 am ET by RickL
Hi Brian ,
Depending on the price , why replace the motor ? If you can plug it in and use it for say half the price then imo that is a bargain and you could spend the other $1000 on more tools .
If it has not broken yet it probably won't , so a warranty is of questionable value on some items .
good luck dusty
The newest Powermatic (PM2000) has some features that the old ones don't, so you might want to give consideration to them. Specifically, built-in mobile base, a quick-release guard and quick-release riving knife (not splitter). So, if you are one who actually uses your guard and splitter and get aggravated about how hard they are to remove/replace for non-through cuts, that could be a big factor. Discussions about riving knives tend to turn long and fractioned, but while such a feature is not a cure-all, it's certainly a huge step above the traditional USA splitter.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi FG,
The new PM2000 is a nice tool - we just got a few at school. In addition to the features you mentioned, their tables are about 3" deeper (in front of the blade) than other table saws. Someone planning to install an after-market device (e.g.: router table) to the right of the saw table, will have to take the additional depth into account.
The dust collection mechanism is an improvement over previous designs.
The built-in casters don't elevate the enclosed base very far; OK for a level deck, but perhaps not enough for an irregular floor or to get over a threshold.
The rip fence has a minor problem: the shims were glued-on after painting, and they're very easy to dislodge if you bump into them when removing or reinstalling the fence; if one of the shims that rides against the front rail gets knocked off, the fence is thrown significantly out of parallel with the miter gauge slot and blade. We scrape off the paint and epoxy them back in place.
If you overtighten the arbor nut, it's possible to break the spindle lock that makes one-wrench blade changes possible (students seldom seem to think too tight is a problem until it's too late).
The on/off switch on one of our new PM2000s has been plagued by dust contamination, sometimes refusing to shut off, sometimes refusing to start (the saw has been placed O-O-O until a replacement arrives).
Although such shortcomings become immediately apparent with several hundred students using these tools, some of these issues would likely be immaterial in a one-person shop.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 11/19/2006 5:33 pm by jazzdogg
32635.31 in reply to 32635.4
Hi FG,
The new PM2000 is a nice tool - we just got a few at school. In addition to the features you mentioned, their tables are about 3" deeper (in front of the blade) than other table saws. Someone planning to install an after-market device (e.g.: router table) to the right of the saw table, will have to take the additional depth into account.
Jazzdogg: I bought a new PM 66 2 yrs ago . I noticed what you said about the 3" extra table in front of the blade.Do you mean 3" deeper than a 66? As it really bothers me when i have a long run of stuff to be tenoned for example ( it's a long reach on the 66).If i had known about the PM2000 i probably would have waited for it though/ I also like the poly vee belt i think i read they have in them. Chris
Hi Chris,
When we decided to buy a few PM2000s for school, I went to a retailer who had one on the sales floor to give it the once-over. They didn't have any 66s on the sales floor at the time, but I noticed that the table on the PM2000 was deeper than all of the other tablesaws they had on the floor (Deltas and Jets). I haven't compared the depth of the tables on the PM2000s against any newer 66s. If you like, I can measure the tables on some of our well-seasoned 66s, Unisaws, and Lagunas when I'm at school on Wednesday.-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazzdogg:I just went down stairs and measured my 66 . It is 10 1/2" from the front edge of the table to the nearsest edge of the throat plate .And it is 18" from the front edge to the center line of the arbor with the blade elevated 1/2". No wonder my back hurts when i do tenoning.As a matter of fact i had the wife helping me and she was sitting behind the saw as it is a lot closer to the blade . These were small parts trimming 1/32" off the ends of 1/4' x 3/4' sticks .
Don't bother measuring all the other machines as i was just wondering when i read your post that Pm made it a longer reach. Also reaching forward like that is a prescription for an accident , like if you have a bad footing ( saw dust on floor.)
I 'am still happier than i was with my old Sears from 1973.
When we decided to buy a few PM2000s for school, I went to a retailer who had one on the sales floor to give it the once-over. They didn't have any 66s on the sales floor at the time,
I wasn't aware that they were still making the 66.
I'am susprised the school didn't go for the Saw Stop.Must be a big school to have all those saws. Chris
We are blessed with a terrific woodworking environment here in San Diego. Palomar College averages 700 - 900 woodworking students per semester, and offers 56 different courses (they're all not offered every semester). San Diego is also fortunate to have the San Diego Fine Woodworkers Association with about 1,500 members.
Can you blame us? We've got to do something to compensate for the weather ; - )
http://www.palomar.edu/woodworking
http://www.sdfwa.org
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
"We've got to do something to compensate for the weather ; - )" Oh, that was mean, just plain mean!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey, a little sympathy please, Jamie! We had almost 2/10" of precipitation the other day. Traffic was a mess: people's cars were slipping and sliding into each other on the freeway, making loud noises and delaying the trip to the beach.
Tan-deprivation had to be endured for almost an entire day! There was a rumor that some people had to suffer the indignity of wearing actual shoes: no flip-flops for a whole afternoon!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I would buy the PM2000, it is a very nice saw with some added features over the 66. An even better purchase would be the Sawstop saw.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Here is my personal experience with a Powermatic like that.
I rented space in a building where there was an earlier 70's vintage saw, maybe 1975 or 1976. This was in 1980 so it wasn't really a very old tool, and had only been used by a couple of good crafts people for cutting sheet goods and pine.
The saw itself actually had a 2 horse power motor and was much more powerful than my 3 horse unisaw. It had a better arbor and ran smoother than any unisaw too.
The problem I saw was that for cutting angles where the blade needed to be tilted, the tilting device was attached to pretty flimsy sheet metal on the side of the cabinet. Because of this, angles were difficult to set accurately and when pushed hard, the whole thing seemed to flex.
It wasn't good!
This is the old green Powermatic with the racing stripe.
I also have a jointer of the same make and vintage, and it is a terrific machine. No one gets a smoother cut from their jointer than I do.
I would never buy one of the old green Powermatic 66's because of my experience.
But I wouldn't hesitate to buy a newer one, new or used. The newest (what's it called - PM2000?) seems like they are trying too hard to add gimmicks for the purpose of gaining sales. The regular Model 66 is a really great machine.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Growing up, I worked in my grandpa's cabinet shop, using an old (1960s) Delta unisaw. Now, I've moved out, gotten married, and, in the process, convinced my wife that it's in our family's best interest to buy a PM2000.
In my opinion, the PM2000, despite being made in Taiwan, is every bit a good a saw as the old Unisaws. Obviously, time will tell if the quality is lasting, but in the short time I have had the new Powermatic, I have no complaints. With minimal tuning, it rips gluelines that are silky smooth with no evidence of saw marks (of course, the blade is still new). It's vibration-free, and solidly built with lots of cast iron.
It's true that the PM2000 has a lot of "gimmick-y" features, but it's also got it where it counts.
My two cents.
I wasn't comparing it to the Unisaw with any thoughts that the Unisaw was better or even equal.
I was comparing the old green Powermatic with a Unisaw and thought the Powermatic performed better with less horsepower, but the machine didn't have the strength to deal with tilting the blade for angled cuts.
You don't need to be defensive about your purchase. I would expect it to perform well. I personally don't have any use for built-in wheels.
Hal
So you think adding a riving knife is a gimmick!!! Go over to http://sawmillcreek.org/ and read about the person that just lost a middle finger and damaged 2 others. IMHO a riving knife would probably have prevented this accident.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=45979
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Edited 11/17/2006 6:18 pm ET by JerryPacMan
Jerry,
Okay, so I took a look at the website you listed. I didn't see anything there that showed that an easily removable riving knife would have saved his fingers.
The "new feature" on the Powermatic saw is not that it has a riving knife, it is that it is easily removable. Riving knives have been around a while.
In this particular case, the guy obviously had removed the guard from his saw.
It is not the saw's fault that he put his hand in the blade. He shouldn't have put his hand in the blade, it's that simple. So what if he got hit with a stick.
Obviously in this case, this particular woodworker would have removed the guard and riving knife on his Powermatic saw too. It would have been so much easier.
One last, but important note: The easily removable riving knife is not the gimmick I was talking about.
Hal
Hal J "One last, but important note: The easily removable riving knife is not the gimmick I was talking about."
Good you had me worried.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Some of these "gimmicks" as you call them are improvements that many of us have been wondering "what took so damned long" about. A riving knife, while not a cure-all safety feature, does provide improved protection against kick-back. And a quick-release mechanism for both the knife and the guard shouldn't need any explanation as to usefullness.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Please tell us about your experience with using any Powermatic tablesaw and your experience with using a riving knife. You seem to offer opinions about machines you don't own. Don't you own a Merlin splitter on your old Jet contractor saw. When have you used a PM 66 or a saw with a riving thingeeee?DJK
Easy friend. It'd be hard to get experience on a PM with a rivening knife since it hasn't been available until the PM 2000.
Did he blow a fuse again? Oh, dear. I don't read any missives addressed to me, surprise, surprise.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
<It'd be hard to get experience on a PM with a rivening knife since it hasn't been available until the PM 2000>I may have misinterpreted DJK's post, but it didn't sound like he was asking about experience with a Powermatic equipped with a riving knife, but rather experience with each separately. <with using any Powermatic tablesaw and your experience with using a riving knife>I think it's a valid question. Opinions are fine, and everybody is entitled to their own, but an opinion based on personal experience is worth more. I'll blather on all day about a PM66 because I've owned one for 20 years, taken it apart several times, and cut a zillion board feet on it. I've worked on Deltas, Rockwells, Mini Maxs, Grizzleys and probably a few more, but I don't have enough experience on any of them to speak confidently about their positive or negative points. I won't tell you that this one sucks or that one is great based on my limited experience. I think that is what DJK was getting at. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not.
I think you and DJK are missing her point. She would buy the cabinet saw with the rivening knife, period. Since PM 66s don't have'm, it's irrelevant whether she used one. As the next poster commented, it's defintely not a gimmick and should be the variable that turns the decision. You don't have to agree, but personal experience on one of the saws isn't really a issue in this calculus. So she's not being officious as his post implies.
<As the next poster commented, it's defintely not a gimmick and should be the variable that turns the decision><but personal experience on one of the saws isn't really a issue in this calculus>So, on the one hand, you're using terrylee86's post (an informative one based on personal experience) to make your point that the riving knife is not a gimmick and should influence a decision to buy. But you go on to say that personal experience on one of the saws is not an issue. Which is it?I'm not trying to be a pain. I'm just saying that advice given that is based on personal experience is worth much more than that given based on none. There is much advice thrown around on this forum that falls into the latter category. That's not all bad and makes for some interesting discussion. But, if I'm going to make a decision on a purchase, or method of work, or whatever, am I going to go with the guy that says, "the super duper combo blade is the way to go because I really like it -- though I've never actually used one", or am I going to listen to the guy that says, "the super duper combo blade is overrated -- I've used one for two years and it cuts poorly"? It seemed to me that DJK was merely asking for qualification to a statement made, nothing more. And as I said before, maybe I'm wrong, maybe not.
Mike, you are correct in your comments. Many on this site confuse experience with heresy.DJK
My response was to DJK's tone, and I think you're playing the perfect straight man for him to deny what is very obvious. But as to your first comment, I think you haven't quite understood my point. Forrest girl didn't claim to have experience with the saw. She merely pointed out that a few of the features of the PM 2000 weren't simply marketing gimmicks. I adduced the annecdote from a PM owner for the purpose of demonstrating that forrest girl's opinion was spot on even though she owns a Jet contractor saw with a Merlin attachment.
<My response was to DJK's tone, and I think you're playing the perfect straight man for him to deny what is very obvious.>And my response was to you. I don't know DJK, and so have no way of knowing the intent of his post. I was merely responding with my thoughts on advice based on personal experience -- that's all. If I misunderstood your point, so be it. I'm not trying to stir things up and don't want to hijack this thread further, so I'll take my leave now.
I don't need a straight man and what I said stands. You've been around her long enough to know that opinions are just that. You can defend FG all you want, that's your privilege, but she has no experiance using a Powermatic saw or a saw with a riving knife. Her opinion is based on what other people say and I'll bet most of the comments are from individuals that have never used a saw with a riving knife.DJK
I've never had a car with an air bag and yet feel very confident to state that it is a safety feature worth having. (BTW: I've had a table saw with a riving knife and crown guard for six years. Does your saw have one?)
None of my five saws have them. Never said they did, but my cars have air bags.DJK
Edited 11/20/2006 12:56 pm ET by DJK
Of the five cars that have air bags, how much good have they done for you?
Not five cars, five saws.DJK
O.K. I'll buy one of the new Powermatics now that I know it comes with an air bag, that can come in really handy . So does it stop you when you get too close to the blade ? LOL
What the ____ are you talking about?DJK
DJK , Lighten up , life's short , eat desert first .
Dusty old pal, I have lightend up. You asked a question so I responded.DJK
Everyone is arguing back and forth and no one has noticed the man (BMYYOU) who asked the question hasn't responded to anyone! Maybe this was just a set up question that someone knew would cause arguments. Anyone agree??
Edited 11/22/2006 4:34 am ET by rbarlow
"Maybe this was just a set up question that someone knew would cause arguments." No, I doubt it. It wasn't a guaranteed spat. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It's time for you to buy a new car. Your old one(s), if built before air bags are probably also putting out an unfair amount of pollution.
Hal
Here is some news: Sometimes it doesn't take experience to know if something is better or not.
Sounds like forestgirl is using her brain a bit, and it seems to be working!
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Not to put too fine a point on it, but while I like the idea of a riving knife, if it came down to a choice between a quick-change splitter and a clumsy riving knife that wasn't quick-change (probably isn't such a thing, but just for the sake of argument), I'd probably go for the quick-change dinosaur.
The main point of my original post was not to recommend one over the other but to point out that the two are quite different from each other in design.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I was just responding to the tone and undisclosed bias. I'm sure DJK is of the "it's the user not the saw" camp.
If I win the sweepstakes over at woodmagazine.com I'll be able to report as a Certified Owner and User. ROFL! Have a good Thanksgiving guy!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
<"it's the user not the saw" camp.>I know I said I was out of this one, but will you elaborate? I believe it's the user, not the saw. I'd like to comment but I may not be reading your statement in it's proper context.
Forestgirl,
So how long have you really been actually wondering when Powermatic would put an easy to remove riving knife on their saws?
It isn't really the "gimmick" that I was referring to though.
The Powermatic 66 and 72 are really great saws. I don't think they need crank down wheels or an arbor lock to make them better. I look at it the same as one would a camera; all of the gimmicks or features in the world don't take a better photo. A good camera with an accurate shutter and great lens is really all it takes. And usually when more features are included in a machine, something of quality is left off or diminished somewhere else. There are no freebees out there. (I know a couple of Phoebes though!)
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
The arbor lock isn't even on my wish list, for sure. The built-in casters are pretty nice. Been waiting for awhile for any American company to make a move on improving the guard/splitter situation.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
So why have you been waiting? Going to spend some cash on a new saw. You have an overhead guard and Merlin splitter. What could be better?DJK
Other than production fences which bolt to the table top, the very best fence I've seen or used is Powermatic's cast iron fence. If the old 66 has its cast iron fence and is in good shape, get the old saw. I wouldn't trade my 66 for any of the new saws because of its fence.
Buy the older pm66. It will have the 3 belt drive and maybe a Robins&Myers motor. The older castiron fence in good condition is great. I think one post mentions flex. This was a problem with the PM65 not the 66.
DJK
You may be right about it being a model 65 rather than a 66. I'm really not sure as it was a long time ago.
But other than the flex, this was a great saw.
Hal
Hey Brian,
Those older model 66 saws are bullet proof. They were, in my opinion, the cream of the crop for American style saws. If I were to buy an older machine that is what I would buy. If I were to purchase new it would be a Sawstop.
Search older threads on these boards as well. No shortages of opinions there.
-Paul
If the PM 66 is priced right buy it and change the motor. No current offshore saw tilting arbor saw is going to rival the older 66 in quality and fit and finish unless the saw has been beat to hell and back.
Well everyone seems to be in a tizzy about new vs. old, riving knife vs. splitter. I guess I can add some insight to this convesation. I bought a new PM66 in 1976 and loved the saw for 28 years. I bought a Laguna TS, with a riving knife, in 2004 so I guess I qualify as someone who may know.
The old PM 66 better be a very good price if you have to replace the motor because a new Baldor motor ( 3 HP single phase 45 T flange mount) will be about $400 and the new heaters( if you can still get the Furnas heaters) will be about $50 and if it comes with the old short fence (30" to the right) you will probably need a new fence $300. I had to replace the bearings($120) in 2000 and while not impossible it took about 3 days of tinkering. You have to take the saw completely apart and press out the bearings and the saw blade flange and the press the bearings and flange back on straight ( about 6 tries) so the blade runs true. I gave my rebuilt 66 to my son ( he loves it) and bought the Laguna. The scoring blade and the riving knife are not gimmicks. It should be mandatory on all table saws, your blade will never bind again.
I would take a extremely serious look at the Sawstop. It was not out when I bought the TS, but I would have bought one in a heartbeat. Our woodshop teacher has one and the fit and finish is better than my TS. The Taiwain machine tops are ground glass smooth and perfectly flat( on our school's anyway) and if you look at the Sawstop website the testominials are incredible. Buy what you can afford, but I never would have messed with that old saw if it was'nt for my son. I teach my students(I'm a science teacher) the only part of the human body that can regenerate is the liver not fingers.
I have a PM 66 from the 1970's; I bought it about 15 years ago. It has the original 3hp motor. It's been solid as a rock. I now need to replace the belts and will try the link belts. I was not happy with the cast iron fence, so I replaced it with an Excalibur (out of production?). I also just got a Penn State Industries guard (I think Forestgirl has one). I still need to figure out a splitter - maybe the Merlin.
I bought the saw because of the price. I do prefer to buy used machinery for cost and recycling. But, if the cost of the saw, new motor, and after-market add-ons approach a new saw, why bother?
hello brian, I recently went through pretty much the same delema I studied long and hard (eight mo's while I saved $$) I was looking into a new 66 or a pm2000. For me the only reason I considered the 66 was because it is still made here in this country. I ended up buying the pm2000 and I do not regret it at all. This saw has met and exceeded all of my expectations. Either one will not be a wrong choice good luck rb
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