Hi all.
To market my products I am wondering about setting up a website (with little bro’s help) or going with a gallery with heafty pricing, but some online presance.
Time working on site vs making product and paying someone else to sell and collect payment. Also taking credit card orders is costly, a problem ridden process, privacy act and all. I don’t know much about paypal but will be learning more soon.
What I want to offer is tables and chests with a feminine kind of form can I say exoctic/erotic (with good taste). not to many straight lines, some asian influance.
Any and all advise appreciated.
Thanks for your input.
Shoe
Replies
I've had a website for over five years and haven't had any sales off of it. With a website you need to advertise it and that takes some money. You may even have to hire a web designer to create a store front that looks professional enough that people will trust ordering from you online and that takes a lot of money. As an example here's my website http://www.mvflaim.com versus a really nice professional one http://www.woosterclock.com Who would you rather buy online from?
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 8/3/2009 6:04 pm ET by mvflaim
Thanks I checked them out.I see what you mean. So how do you get work? How do you market yourself? I noticed that you have a degree in marketing.
through word of mouth from friends, family and co-workers. The one factor that I'm lacking and one that is even more important than advertising is the fact that I really don't have a niche. Wooster Clock Co makes customized wooden clocks. That's it. So you know who they are, what they do and what their specialty is. Me on the other hand, I don't have a niche. My portfolio is a accumulation of the crap I've made over the years. One page I'll have period furniture, then the next will be a french country buffet, then I'll have country quilt rack, modern coffee table, traditional credenza, etc... I have no one style that I stick with so no one really knows what my specialty is. When you think about successful furniture makers almost all if not all have a style they create and stuck with. Maloof had a style, Krenov has a style. I don't have a style yet.
As far as advertising goes. There is website that has just been revamped called http://www.custommade.com It's basically a directory of woodworkers from all over the country with contact info and pictures. In fact I just joined it today so maybe it will help me draw some visitors to my website.
Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 8/4/2009 11:05 am ET by mvflaim
IMHO, having a singular style is essential for those wanting to sell commissioned $15,000 chairs, but much less so for someone who prefers to work in a variety of styles and/or periods (and at lesser rates). So, showing a variety of work, to me, says, "I can probably do whatever you want," while the singular-style person's work says, "I'm really good at this one thing."
That's very true. Good point.
http://www.mvflaim.com
I have had a lot of responses from Custommade.com. I hope it works for you.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
That's good to hear. Up until a few months ago I was a sales rep for Senco Products and my website was just a part time project. But after they filed for bankruptcy I've been out of work. Right now I'm just trying to knock down as many doors as possible.
http://www.mvflaim.com
You do nice work!
I agree that you need a good site to sell. I also have a site that I put up on my own as a temporary measure until I get better photos of my work.
http://www.ltccarpentry.com
Cheers,
Chaim
I checked out your site. Looks good from this end. Also your work is great!Does it generate sales? do you have gallery space or?Thanks
Thanks, no I don't get sales from my web site but I didn't expect to (not directly anyhow)
I put the site together myself using a simple program called "Website x5". I felt a need for a web site because I found customers want to see your work on the web and this somehow gives you legitimacy.
I plan to revise and hire a pro to create a Website with a functioning sales dept, and I guess I'm waiting for better photos of my work and I need a little more justification to spend the big bucks! In the mean time I also have a Flickr account.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaimgottesman/sets/
Its also a cool tool I find having a good domain name is also an important tool. You'll get more hits and better traffic if you have a good name. Also important is having it be a .com name because people naturally remember them better and it seems like the real deal as aposed to .net .org .something or other!
I say I generate no direct sales and that's true but I do refer customers to my site and have them view my work after the initial conversation so it does help me sell even with out a store front.
Chaim
Chaim, I built my site through Yahoo Site Builder. It cost me $12.00 a month and they have dozens of templates to use. Unless your site is going to be complicated I'd give Yahoo a try first. Plus Flickr is a part of Yahoo so the interaction between the two will be seamless.
Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 8/5/2009 10:55 am ET by mvflaim
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Chaim
I like your site as well. I like how you catagorize your work in your portfolio
http://www.mvflaim.com
Chaim,I notice your website is http://www.ltccparpentry.com - was the doubling-up of the "c" intentional? That makes it Living Tree Carpentry Carpentry, doesn't it? Just like a ROS sander.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Yes, I had to double up the "c" at the end because ltc was taken and I really wanted a .com name.
BTW Living Tree Carpentry is also taken, but being that I'm on a different continent I don't feel as if were in competition.
I hope to update my web site in the coming months with better pics and perhaps a new format but its ok for now. Clients think your the devil himself if you don't have a website. Its sort of like peeking in your window to see what your up to, it offers them a feeling of security? perhaps.
I got to tell you though, as soon as I started working full time as a woodworker I spend more time meeting with clients, running to suppliers, banking, and administration then I do in my shop. Its down right frustrating I have this itch that needs scratching!
http://www.ltccarpentry.com
Chaim
Edited 8/7/2009 2:42 am by chaim
Chaim,Too bad the other names were taken (abbreviation and full name). I guess you were able to register you business under LTC. Usually, for a smaller (non-international) company, the name issue is a non-issue. Too late now, but how about Living Tree Carpentree or something along those lines? There is a Flair Woodworking in Concord, Ontario, Canada. I am in Port Moody, BC, Canada. I had no problem getting my name registered.I feel that a website is a great tool to promote your business. I'm sure I get some hits from search engines, but I use it as a reference tool - if I meet someone on the street, I give them my card with a reference to my site as well as my contact information. If they are interested, they can view my work on my site. One of the hard things I had to do when building my website was to change my thought train. No longer was I writing to my fellow woodworkers like I do so much, but now I am writing to my clients which is a totally different ball game. Stillfiguringitout hit the nail on the head with what he said.One thing I am constantly struggling to achieve are different perspectives, often the perspective of my prospective clients.And I hear you loud and clear! It is so time consuming running a business you wonder if you'll ever get any woodworking done. And yet somehow, we spend time to come here and yak. A while back, Mel tried to get me to break this habit. I managed to stay away for a little while, but in the end couldn't do it. To me, this is a great resource and a way to unwind and have some fun while still talking shop. I've been working a lot during the evening/night now that it's warm out through the night. Quietly, of course.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
The yakking I'll leave to the wifey! LOL
As for knots I'll look but as you probably noticed I don't post all that much (and sometimes I open my mouth to much at the cafe#
Usually I'll start my day with a cup of cafe or two #or three!Ha Ha) and go over my mail and look over the forums for interesting info.
I actually got to cut some wood today! I did a glue up too!!! I also talked to about four clients who think Ikea and home depot are to expensive so they came to me..... Oh where does the day go?
See ya,
Chaim
I for one see nothing threatening with the first link verses the second. I think both have appeal!
Mike, please don't take this the wrong way. I should really just keep my big mouth shut and opinion to myself. But I'm not going to blow sunshine up your trousers. Your site would be fine and expected for a weekend amateur woodworker, but it is not a selling tool. A real selling tool is all about the Client. I didn't see the word Client once. Client, Client, Client. I may have missed it. Use it often, like every other sentence.
Unless you have a good story to tell, Clients don't want to hear you work out of your basement shop. That is less than the image you want to portray as fine furniture maker extraordinaire and successful entrepreneur. All they can see in their mind is a dingy old basement. And certainly leave out the non formal training except for high school shop part of the story. Fine furniture and high school trained don't usually go together, with fresh wood students the exception. And no one knows about that except woodworkers. You are not expected to sell much to a fellow woodworker. A car salesman doesn't buy a car from another car salesman.
Your competition is not big production shops. Clients don't care how you keep costs down. They want someting beautiful to brag about. Not something they can buy at Rooms Are Us. Custom furniture is not about cheap and cost cutting. You don't need to apologize for anything.
You should edit your page for misspellings and grammer. Here's an example from the first few sentences of your home page:
"I started to work with wood at the age of 12. My father was and magazines to watching woodworking TV shows."
I don't have a clue what your farther was doing, or how magazines come into play. And watching woodworking shows is not what I want to hear from a master furniture maker. I should know, I watch them all the time and I'm a rank amateur woodworker. Besides, Clients don't care that a 12 year old boy was banging boards around.
Typos and bad grammer are distracting. I saw a few more. The Client is going to think if you can't edit and complete a simple sentence, what little flaws will their nice custom piece of furniture have.
Clients don't need to know you have a Bachelors degree in marketing because it doesn't mean squat to making fine furniture. And even worse, it show a marketing guy can't put together a website that really impresses them.
They don't need to know The benefits of using hand planes over sandpaper is two fold.
You would be hard pressed to find enough Clients in your area who want a lesson in hand planes verse sandpaper or care to know what a Stanley thingamajig is. They especially don't want to hear how you mistakenly used sand paper all those years, silly you. All they care about is that you are a Master, you make the finest custom furniture available, and you pay special attention to every little detail, AND THE CLIENTS EVRY DESIRE. Who else would you expect them to spend their hard earned $$$ with.
The pictures look like they were shot with a cellphone camera inside your home. The picture of the unfinished drawer dovetails actually looks dirty and not fine furniture grade. You need to think what you are really trying to show the Client. While I believe professional photography is way to expensive, at least for me, maybe try hanging up a white sheet and draping it on the floor. Then shoot your photos without all the surrounding clutter. Move some lamps around, get the lighting right and make it a bit artistic. Maybe not all the photos but a few. Clients like to see furniture in real life setting but they don't want all of the photos shot from your living room. It would be great to take the photo in a Client's home so you can mention Client. They want to see the beauty of the details close up and sharp. The coffee table looks really nice, at least the half I can see. In one photograph the other half is completely obliteratd by the sunshine.
The walnut secretary is beautiful but I still don't get the impression you are trying to show it off and sell it.
Scrape off that brown depressing stuff on the top of your webpage. Use a pleasing color if nothing else. Why all the empty space to the right. Is that for advertising by others. It may be the way your page is set up. It looks blank and unused, and I was distracted by too much empty space.
Your contact page is heads and shoulders above the rest of your web pages. I didn't read every word, but I liked it.
Now that I've completely dug a grave for myself, I want to mention that picture of you on the front page has to go. Try standing and leaning against a fine piece of hand made furniture and smile real big. You're a good looking guy, and I say that in the most manly way. But in that picture you look stressed, hung over or not to well that day. Let the Client see you are real, vibrant, feeling good, looking good, love your work, proud of your work. The best available. Cover the top quarter of the page with the new picture of you.
Hey take all this with a grain of salt. It's probably worth just what you paid for it. I'm just an old man with a social disorder. You have a lot of talent. Heck a windsor chair and period furniture are a highly specialized craft. I just think a couple of hours rewriting and arranging the site might pay for itself. It will make you feel better.
Highest Regards
Hi Stillfigur,
Thanks for your post. I love constructive criticism. I need it. I've had others who PM me the same. You make valid points and I'm going to rebuild the website soon. I'll admit that web design is not a specialty of mine. Hopefully more people will critique the website as well.
My fragmented sentences were due to the fact that I updated my website last night and forgot to proof read it. I've since updated it and hopefully it looks better.
I definitely need to either hire a professional photographer or buy a decent camera and learn how to make a photo studio in my garage. I've always disliked my pictures.
Thanks Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 8/6/2009 11:23 am ET by mvflaim
"I definitely need to either hire a professional photographer or buy a decent camera and learn how to make a photo studio in my garage. I've always disliked my pictures."Not to be critical, but you may be underestimating both the level of investment and the time/study necessary to learn how to create high-quality commercial photography. I'd check your Yellow Pages for commercial photographers (those who do product work for ads, brochures, etc.) in your area, and look at the type of work they do. If you find a local commercial photographer who does work similar to what you need, ask for a ball-park estimate. Commercial photography is quite specialized, and not at all like doing family and senior portraits, weddings, etc. Most commercial shooters will have tens of $thousands invested in equipment, and have been at it for a number of years. Also, the better ones will be located in major advertising centers, such as New York, Chicago, L.A., and San Francisco. Their prices will, of course, reflect both their investment and skill level.Rob Millard (I think I'm getting his name correctly), who posts here, has gone down the DIY photo path, and may be able to provide some further insight. At a minimum, you'd be looking at a mid-range digital SLR ($600-$800), a PC (perspective control) lens ($1500 or so, and really more important than the camera), a pro-level light meter ($600), and lighting gear (strobes, softboxes, etc.), which might run another couple of $thousand. There are make-do work-arounds, but they add further complications to the process.
I kinda figured that which is why I never spent the money. I'll look into hire a professional.
Thanks!
http://www.mvflaim.com
Another area you need to keep in mind and that is 'SEO' and that is where a good professional can be very helpful. SEO stands for 'search engine optimization' and is increasingly important. Be careful, there are some real thieves out there making pie in the sky promises. Stick to someone that designs the site to make it friendly to the search engines without any of the shady tricks that can get your site banned by the search engines.
By the way, I agree with much of what has been said about the look and feel of a web site. Keep it professional looking and give the client confidence in your ability to deliver the product.Dan Carroll
'search engine optimization' could you expand please? What the evil thing I should avoid?Your giving some good advice.
Thank you
It is a little hard to explain, but their is a good Wikipedia article on the subject. Basically you want your web site to be easy for the search engines (Google, Bing, yahoo etc.) to find and 'crawl' and then to index your site correctly so that when someone searches for furniture makers they find your site. I became aware of the SEO issues when I ran across some less than honest folks and started researching them (I had not given them money) and found a consent decree with the AG of Washington State that had been filed. You just have to to ask the questions of the professional putting together your web site. I don't understand all of this myself, I do have a designer I trust.Dan Carroll
I will second the investment in SEO. My day job is as an online marketing and sales consultant. The way to think about SEO is this: you can have the greatest store in the world - but if no one knows about it, you will starve to death. SEO ensures that anyone with an interest in your type of woodworking will find it - easily and quickly - ideally on the first page of search results.You should be able to get basic SEO work done for less than $500. It will repay itself quickly. There are also numerous sites that can show you how to do it yourself (it's not that hard - at least the basic stuff). Take a look at:
http://seo.site-reference.com/how-to-learn-seo-in-2008/
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmastersGood luck - it's a one time investment and it will pay off endlessly!
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the links. I'll look into it.
Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
Mike may could rent the equipment for a weekend. Just a thought. May take a few phone calls and a trip to a larger city. I think making the photos too professional, too commercial may intimidate Clients a bit. Expert photography is what I'd expect from large production shops that have the budget. And not from an individual furniture maker working in a small shop. Don't underestimate the value of a cute kid or dog in a photo. Mix it up. As Bob Ross said - Lets have some fun. Love that guy. OK, I'll shut up now.
Mike,When I update my site, I do it offline, let it for a while and go do something else, then come back and proof-read it, or better yet have a family member edit it for me (better because it's all new to them and they think differently than I). Then, and only then, do I upload the new content. Before you go and critique my site, I will say that I am in the (slow) process of getting my work professionally photographed. It's harder for me because most of the work on my site is already in my clients' homes, not all of which are local.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Mike,
The deeper I delve into photography, the more I realize how little I know, so look at the following link with that in mind.
http://americanfederalperiod.com/Photography%201.html
Rob Millard
Hi Rob,
I've actually read your article several times before. I have the link saved in my Favorites.
I'm a big fan of your work. maybe someday I'll drive up 75 so you can teach me how to be a real craftsman. ; )
Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 8/7/2009 5:38 pm ET by mvflaim
Mike,
I didn't realize you were so close. You are welcome any time.
Rob Millard
Rob,
You're one of the experts in the forum. How did you go about selling your first piece?
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Jim,
I put pieces in a local gallery which didn't work because my stuff was a poor fit.
I tried a consignment gallery that had some furniture and that didn't work any better. The only piece that sold, sold because someone broke it ( you break you buy it).
I donated pieces to a PBS auction, again nothing.
I ended up selling several pieces on Ebay from 2000-2002. I would list them at a starting price equal to the material cost. Some sold for a decent price, some were basically given away, but I did get a few great customers.
The real turning point came with a couple of ads in The Magazine Antiques. They were very expensive (nearly $1000 each for a business card size ad) but effective.
Rob Millard
Thanks for your comments, Rob. It's always interesting to see how an established furniture maker got started.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
You have my respect because you speak your mind. Lot of people would just say "It looks nice." and not risk hurting someone's feelings rather than step up to the plate and try to help. Good for you. I wish more people were like you.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thank you I appreciate your kind words. I never want to hurt anyones feelings. It's all about lifting up, not a beat down. But I get carried away sometimes and my social incompetence shows itself. I didn't realize from reading your other posts over the past few month that you are a young dude out there making sawdust. You are wise beyond your years. Nice to see not all of the younger generation is going to hell in a handbasket. oops, I'll end it there.
I generally don't take stuff personally and it takes an awful lot to offend me. Part of that is because I am honest with myself - I know my strengths and weaknesses and don't hide from them - I address them. Yes, I'm a young dude and an anomaly, I keep getting told. Woodworking is my only focus, and I think it shows.Learn something every day. Improve youself every day. And make somebody else's day every day.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Sinner, click thine own spell check
I think having a well-designed Web site populated with excellent photographs of work is certainly helpful, since it provides a way for people to see one's work. I wouldn't expect to actually sell anything major off the site, however. My belief is that people want to see, touch and feel anything beyond trinkets.
Establishing and maintaining an attractive Web site usually means outsourcing both the design and maintenance of the site, and the photography to pros in both areas. Anything but top-notch in both areas will reflect poorly on the craftsmanship, and thus be more negative than positive in the influence on business.
That doesn't mean that Web design and pro-level photography can't be learned by a woodworker. It just takes time, and for photography, the right equipment (i.e. more investment).
Production and good marketing are both essential to success. How, and by whom, the latter is done ultimately depends on how one wishes to spend his/her time, and whether they have the requisite skills and differing mind sets required, I think. Ideally, all of this should be worked out as part of the underlying business plan, and tailored to the expectations of the target market (customer base).
http://www.guildsourcebooks.com/servlet/Guild/SourcebookLandingPage?sb=49&chap=50
http://www.custommade.com
http://www.etsy.com/category/furniture
I know of folks having good luck with each of these sites.
“You can sell more in two months by learning about your customer than you can in two years by trying to teach your customer about you”.
I’ve been in sales most of my professional life and there are only two types of people, those that sign the front of the check and those that sign the back, and the front signers don’t care about you at all, they care about what can do for them.
This guy is well worth your time to listen too:
http://www.gitomer.com/
Those seem to be sage words.I checked out that site and will have to go back and look at it some more.So I gather from some of the posts that Good product is more important than Good producers?I really like the who signs which side of the check statement.Have a good weekend
Unless you’re Sam Maloff the producer doesn’t matter. People buy a product and they want value for what they spend.
Shoemaker,
It may be a good idea to try to make a few products for friends or neighbors...even if you make little or no money on of them...just to get your feet wet. You will get a better idea of what clients are looking for when you speak with them face to face. It's been said a number of times in this forum that most clients don't know or care whether dovetails are hand made or machine made; they want a piece of furniture that fills their needs and looks great. Sure, there are some clients who know and appreciate the intricacies of hand-crafted furniture, but I believe that the majority are looking for an alternative to factory made stuff that everybody else has.
A couple of other things.... Be sure to give the client a written proposal detailing exactly what you will be making for them, the anticipated time for the work to be done, the price and terms of sale. Be specific. List the dimensions, wood species, hardware, finish, etc. and provide a sketch of the piece. You should request a 50% deposit before you begin work to be sure that the client is serious and to pay for the materials. It's a good idea to make a finish sample for the client to approve in advance of any finishing so that you will know the recipe for the finish and to eliminate any problems when you deliver the piece. Give yourself enough time to do the work. Things go wrong and sometimes you have to remake a part. Or you have a toothache or you need to get the dog to the vet. Clients rejoice when you tell them that the piece is going to be ready early. They are always disappointed if you have to call and say that you're running late.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Thanks for you comments
I have made a few pieces for friends and family and a few to local fundraising groups to be auctioned. Got a lot of positive feedback from the public. and a couple small commisions.The woodworkers are the ones that say what I do can't be done! Gee it's there in front of you!! some of my tops are curved edge and I explain they are made from solid wood..I have many call be an out right liar. Finally told one old curmudgion if you can find a glue line you can have the table. After squinting through his bifocals for 20 minutes he left.I have had family ask were I got that antique. I said it was a stack of boards 3 weeks ago and they were impressed.I have made finished sample boards and they are a good referance for present and future projects.
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