Greetings, folks. Just popping in here because I received a phone call from my brother who was invited to a predemolition house. Apparently the owners are not only demolishing the house but several oak trees are also to be taken down. Sorry, don’t know the species (I’m checking here first), yet. What I would like to know is if there actually is a market for this kind of thing and if so who and what kind of info do I need? I’m suspecting: species, height, diameter of trunk, straight leader or several awkward branchings, how many trees. Who would be interested (lumber yard, mill, club, cabinet maker)? Is this the info that would be needed?
Thanks for your help.
ps Northern IL location.
This jobless recovery has done more to promote the consumption of exquisite chocolate than the finest chocolatier. Cost be damned.
Replies
There is no commercial demand for yard trees, because of the high probability that they contain metal obects, e.g. nails, fence staples, etc., which are tough on saw blades. If there's time to advertise in the local shopper, sometimes there will be hobbyists in the area who would be interested and who have the knowledge / experience / contacts to get it milled. Nobody will want the limbs for lumber, nor the trunk above the first limb.
If the owners do find somebody who wants the wood, they may be able to negotiate some payment, but it won't be very much. Their other choices are to chop it up for firewood or pay to have it hauled away, and any potential buyer knows that. If they find a buyer (or recipient), the next risk is that he won't show up on the appointed day, leaving them scrambling to deal with the trees.
Edited 10/23/2003 9:35:52 AM ET by Uncle Dunc
There is a movement in the US called "urban salvage" -- millers remove and mill old trees found lining city streets and such to use the lumber for various projects. We have a furniture maker in the Seattle area who made the papers a few months ago -- he has his own mill and sells specifically this salvaged lumber, and builds with it.
Get the yellow pages for the nearest big city and look for "green" building materials businesses (the environmentally friendly folk who sell flooring, etc.) Someone there should know who mills these trees. Here's a link to the Seattle guy's web-site. Coool stuff.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/23/2003 12:06:46 PM ET by forestgirl
Thanks. Apparently the trees are ENORMOUS (a hundred or so years old). 10 acres and the old house, 30 yrs old, is to be torn down to put up a "decent" house. Of course, the trees are in the new footprint. sigh.This jobless recovery has done more to promote the consumption of exquisite chocolate than the finest chocolatier. Cost be damned.
You might try the local AAW chapter (Illinois addresses here: http://www.woodturner.org/locals/aawlocal.cfm#IL). Woodturners are more likely than most to want green wood in short lengths and small quantities, and more likely to put up with embedded objects. But don't expect anything beyond some help carting the stuff away and maybe a bowl.
Graeme
Where in Northern Illinois? There are a couple of sawyers in the area who have milled lumber from felled yard trees. While I agree that embedded objects are a risk in the city and nearby 'burbs of Chicago, there is much less risk on largely undeveloped property well outside the city.
tony b.
Barrington-ish. Either that or Barrington Hills.This jobless recovery has done more to promote the consumption of exquisite chocolate than the finest chocolatier. Cost be damned.
There's a guy in West Chicago...I'll get his name and number and re-post. I don't think he has a kiln, so you'll have to sticker and season your material.
There's a guy on Route 14 just outside Woodstock...I pass him on the way to Wisconsin. Never stopped...just know that he's there.
Again, check the yellow pages for "sawyer."
tony b.
About 20 yrs ago we cut most of the mature timber on our farm in east central Missouri, at the suggestion of the Forest Service. The majority of the oaks (red and white) had the centers completely rotted out; e.g., a 36" diameter tree would have about 12" of good wood all around and a 12" hole in the middle. We could have gotten a lot of quartersawn, I suppose, but we sold what we could for barrel staves and the rest for firewood.
Edited 10/23/2003 8:47:04 PM ET by rob
http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm
http://www.mobilemfg.com/
http://www.baileys-online.com/
http://www.woodmizer.com/welcome.html
Check the phonebook and the mill manufacturers/sellers for portable sawmillers locally. Local tree service guys will know of them, too. Few advertise.
I mill yard trees occasionally with my Lucas and a metal detector...but my blades repair easily...I wouldn't do it with a band mill.
I also wouldn't pay anything for the tree...too many free ones available in partnership with my arborist pals.
Make sure whoever cuts them is dressed like this:
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/29955672.jpg
Red oak is in higher demand than white oak however, red oak seldom gets much over 80 to 100 years old without some major internal rot, white oak is a little better in that around 150 to 200 years it will start to rot in the center.
To give you an idea of the value of the trees..
assume that there is 500 board feet per tree. that is on the high side but reflects your comments on their large size and maturity.
the local sawmill sells oak for 80 cents a bd.ft. green rough at the mill.
they pay around 10 cents a bd.ft. for stumpage if there is enough of it to make the trip worth while.
Yard trees are feared because of the potential for metal which can ruin blades and injure people..
The metal may not be visable but imbedded several inches below the surface leaving no trace of their existance..
They cannot just use metal detectors because the metal may have decayed enough that it won't setoff the detector but the glass insulator or porcelan object that it origanlly held will do just as much damage..
You might call woodmizer, they have a list of the local mill owners who may be interested in working with you, goodluck.
Frenchy,
Only $.10 a BF in the log for Red Oak? Makes it hardly worth hauling.
Oak is a rarity in the pac NW where I mill....boatbuilders pay 4 bucks and up for airdried White Oak here.
Our mill prices are running from $.65-.90/BF for Doug Fir and $1.00-$1.20/BF for W.R. Cedar in the log.
Typical logger here charges $400 a load or so to fall/trim/skid/load....the trucker gets $200/load to haul it the 40 miles to the mill...and loads run 3500BF or so.
I haven't checked lately on the rest of it, but it used to be that the loggers got 10 cents a bd.ft. to saw and skid to a landing (saws and skidders owned by the mill) and the trucker got another dime to haul it to the mill (the trucks are owned by the mill) .. about 35 cents to the saw mill who funded all of this and will saw it plus they stand to profit on market flucuations, selling when the market is up and holding as it drops. the grader got another dime a bd.ft.
I've known very few wealthy sawmill operators, most do it because it's a family business and it's all they know or they owe too much to the bank to ever be able to retire..
Out here, the days of the large, multi-echelon timber operations are long gone.
Weyerhauser and Simpson still own trucks and run a few crews, but mostly they and the remainder of landowners large and small contract local logging companies to cut ...and the logger hires the trucker...usually all small family businesses, many only 2 or three folks. My biggest neighbor in the field runs a crew of 6-8 using a mechanical feller-buncher and limber...he gets 15 loads a day and needs to so to make his payroll. But have many more neighbors who own an old skidder and trailer-loader and with 2-3 guys get 2-3 loads a day and are happy with life.
Bob,
I'm courious as to how much of your area was clearcut and will take many decades to produce a usable size log again? Are the crews that are working now doing selective cutting or pretty much taking just about any thing they can?
Here in southern Minnesota we have both.. farmers who sell off timber based on selective cutting and those land owners who clear cut with intentions of turning the land into farm land or just abandoning it once it's harvested..
It's normal to see woodlots stripped of all mature trees but the young trees left for the next generation to harvest. It's also not unusual to see woodlots stripped of all trees and the stumps grubbed out to add to farm land..
The economics are pretty much in favor of removing trees.. in that woodlots sell for around $500.00 an acre once the mature trees are harvested and farm land sells for $2000.00 plus an acre.
Depends on species. DF doesn't grow well in shade, so clearcuts are the norm...ugly, but great for forest and habitat if done in small patches on a rotation scheme every 50-80 years and the resulting slash area proscribed burned before replanting...the acid soil needs those wood ashes. Problem is, the big timber owners rarely do them in small patches.
But that's changing.....the recent trend is to leave one old-growth candidate per acre, which doesn't look as bad...but the controlled burn is the key to forest overall health, and much of those these days are prevented by stupid "Clean Air" laws.
In general, the problem with most forest habitats is the elimination of natural predators and wildfire cycles from the equation in support of forestry or habitation objectives. The forest may look good, but it's too thick with too many even-aged trees. In the absence of native wolves, there are too many deer, eating pulp-producer seedlings to extinction, and too many coyotes (filling the wolf's niche - but on smaller prey) preying on ground-nesters. An additional problem is soil acidification because of a combination of acid rain near habitation and (mostly) lack of wildfire. The soil needs those alkaline wood ashes periodically. How often depends on location and habitat. My habitat improvement prescription for most second-growth or later forests is selective logging of a percentage of dominant shade-producers (protecting mast/pulp producers and all snags), a controlled burn to reduce slash and duff and neutralize soil pH, and sometimes fertilizer/lime and a covercrop of a Berseem Clover/Alfalfa (5-yr life span) mix until the natural stuff takes over. Included in this are the creation of 1/2 acre food plots planted with native mast/pulp producers tiered by height to catch sunlight.
I have a 25-acre patch of mature 2d-growth forest we did such a "Habitat Cut" on 4 years ago, taking out 52 loads of export DF...and today, you can't tell it was ever logged by looking at it fromt he roadside.
I also believe in intensive management of deer, coyote, and non-native plant and animal populations. I'm a private Habitat Biologist in W. Wa specializing in restoration/replication of old-growth forest habitat.
MDL's information in post #13 is what I was looking for. Those are the guys to call in the Chicago area.
tony b.
Edited 10/30/2003 12:55:14 PM ET by YOTONYB
That sounds like a well managed woodlot to me. As for the clean air act being stupid, I would disagree.. It may have it's shortcomings but the acid rain you spoke of is mostly an issue with the coal we burn to get the electricity we need. Can we modify the clean air act? of course! it has been and will be.
Slowly we are learning how to manage our resouces. What was common place as little as a generation ago is unthinkable now.I admit that my father would have thought nothing of dumping his old oil into the sewer or on the ground, his only concern would have been the ugly bare patch of ground that resulted rather than any concern for the ground water..
Controlled burn is really an economic issue. The same could be achieved with other methods, however they are much more costly. Serious consideration needs to be given to the various trade-offs.. For example our wood needs to be affordable.. Not only is the nation remaining economically afloat on the back of the construction industry, it is providing the nation with a much more secure enviroment. It is a fact that homeowners are better citizens with less crime problems than non-homeowners any obsticle to home ownership is also an attack on our American way of life..
Having said that however, we all need to breathe the air and it is not unknown for controlled burns to get out of controll..
Too often our politicians from both parties seek simple answers to complex questions and rather than allow complex solutions, they write overly simple laws so Joe six pack can understand it in a sixty second sound bite..
That to me is the real result of the nasty political dialoge the nation endures now..
The Federal Clean Air Act provides for silviculture burning...it's the local implementation that gets screwed up.
Two choices out here....a burn every 50-500 years depending on forest type....or dolomitic limestone someday by your Greatgrandkids - and then it may be too late.
Mama Nature burned those forests periodically since the dawn of time....all plant and animal species evolved in that cycle over umpten gazillion years...you mess with it at your peril.
The problem is that we already have messed with the forests.. people make their homes in them and we now have monoculture where only one variety of one species of plant/tree is grown..
Part of the natural order of forests is that differant trees grew in the forest.. differant varieties. It helped fight disease and the spread of harmfull insects. Certain trees grew that were only good to provide diversity, yet that diversity helped the forests..
I'm not against controlled burning but there does need to be a better management of it and clear understanding of all aspects of fire.. Sometimes hunters etc. set fires that damage one local area and because of those fires another area isn't burned to compensate for the damage done.. Then the government changes focus and policies change etc.. We change policies of the government every time a differant party is elected.. Maybe that's not all bad but it sure makes it tough for those who impliment policies in our forests..
Gee...I can't see where we differ.
Appropriate comments as I order another 1000 seedlings for next spring of all those diverse "mast and pulp producers" overpopulated deer are destroying.
Do you assume that I don't approve of hunting? Heck! I understand the need for it and it's valid so why not? I may not like to hunt but if you do have at it.. Hope you get a nice doe (the meat's more tender and if you reduce the does the herd tends to be healthier)
Your comment about mast and pulp providers is over my head.. could you please explain? I was under the impression that pulp was usually aspen or some other fast growing wood.not doug fir. as for masts, aren't most sailboat masts made of either aluminum or someother high tech thing like carbon fiber? I know that in the "Old Days" tall Eastern white pine was reserved for the Kings navy but there are very few wooden masts anymore..
Oh Oh....sorry...critter food, not wood...mast being vital seed crops that last thru the winter like acorns and chinquapins...pulp being fruits like Pac. Crabapple, Evergreen Huckleberry. The deer don't ravish the oaks, but they do about everything else.
Sorry for the confusion.
My Sweetie's out there trying to reduce the herd this weekend -- missed the does 2 weeks ago though, can only shoot bucks Friday and Saturday, and then on to the elk hunt. Wish him luck! It's freezing up there (zero degrees).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Bob, I feel like I'm back at UC Davis sitting in a Wildlife and Fisheries class! Cool. The thing that just aggravates me no end in these days of raging forest fires and political arguing back and forth is that 20 years ago when I was in college, they were talking about the role of fire in the health of the forest and it's still not being done right! And to imagine at that tender college age I actually thought everyone would be on the right track by the 21st Century.
Take care. More power to the scientists!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
There a couple of folks in the area that you can contact. Meyers Woodworking, call Ron at 630-231-2955 he's in West Chicago or the best bet is to call Ron at the Kirkland Sawmill in Kirkland, IL (North of DeKalb) 815-522-6150.
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