What are the one man ( or one woman ) shops earning a year. I am thinking mostly custom built-in cabinets, and some furniture. I would be interested to hear from cabinet only shops and combination cabinet/furniture shops. I am only doing weekend jobs, mostly built-in cabinets, some furniture or furniture repair, but want to eventually go full time. Thanks.
Robert
Replies
there was an excellent article in fww about 15? years ago on the pros and cons of custom woodworking as a business. see if you can find it by searching the taunton archives. i remember it because i had a xerox copy of it in my files for many years that i would run across from time to time, but we moved about 20 months ago and who knows where it is now. i'd definitely recommend anybody considering that move to look it up.
m
$50-100K
RHOLLAND54, I have been a one person custom furniture and cabinet shop for about 25 years . The area you work in will have much to do with how much you can charge , and your bottom line or earnings.As a one person business you must do all the tasks related to your operation , many of which produce no income but take production time . Bidding , talking to potential clients measuring jobs that you may not get , doing research on materials not to mention shop maintenance and paper work and banking .This leaves less time to be productive in the shop .To earn $50k a year you may have to gross $100k,that is a lot of woodwork .It seems as though there are many of us who do similar types of work , without having anything to set us apart from the competition .My advice to new shops is to specialize in a particular area that sets you apart. One such area is stairwells , there is much money to earn and very few who do it . Good Luck dusty
Amen to that!
one shop that I know of billed $233,000 last year and took home $19,000. after taxes and expenses.He will be paying for his equipment and the building for 15 years before he gets that monkey off his back. Larry D. a friend of mine admits that last year his wife earned all of the money the family had, in fact she probably paid the electric costs and heat to since his shop was attached to his house..
There seems to be a real trend around here.
One man start up shops that stumble for a year or two and then start working for one of the developers as finish/trim carpenters, just to start to bring back in a decent paycheck..
Within five miles of my house I know of three shops that were once cabinat shops that have gone bust. In spite of this being a very upscale area with major new homes and remodels.
The only recently opened shop that continues is a stained glass shop who spends most of her time either displaying her work or giving away stained glass to local churches etc. Slowly she's building a clientele that years in the future will provide her with a decent living...(she hopes)
I think the national average is one business in 10 survives more than 5 years. The trouble is in trying to recapture your investment after you once start.. Too many small shops survive just enough to pay bills and leave nothing for retirement.. hoping to sell the business at that time.
Young guys who are willing and capable of doing the work seldom have the capitol it takes to buy out the owner, so the former owner is forced to allow a stranger to do a leveraged buyout.. Since one in ten fails what do you think the chances are of that being a success?
Hi Frenchy , As far as " what do you think the chances are of that being a success " Success can be measured in more than one way. Me personally , I have accomplished all I ever set out to and then some. I have made a living and provided for my family . That is success . Financial success ( getting rich ) may not happen as an occupational woodworker . Doing what you enjoy for many of your waking hours and the creative juices that we have are other forms of success .
dusty
Sure Dusty,
It's foolish to define success as some income or finacial goal (not that some don't) It's just that in the cases I mentioned providing for their family was one of their goals..
Before I get too high on my horse, let me admit that I failed.. I tried to run my own business for over two years and couldn't provide my family with their fincial requirements no matter how modest they made them..
Dusty's staircase/stairwell idea is a possable one. My neighbor spent $550 for a one piece (pre assembled) staircase, on site measuring, pine/unfinished, untrimmed ends, curb delivery and no installation. They did a real nice job, I was impressed.
This monster has been sitting in place at a drunken angle for a couple of months. We hope to trim the ends and install it Saturday. Weather looks like it will be great. We are going to have to take it outside to do the trimming. I expect some pretty nasty angles and skill saw cuts. Just need to add a 4'x4' one step base. My back hurts already.
He wanted me to design it and us to build it from stratch. I sent him to Home Depot to research the materials cost. At a $550 sale thats not alot of money left for labor.
Enjoy, Roy
Robert,
I can't really comment on actual income you may yield...I think it's pretty much like any other small business out there...if you stick with it, then you probably won't make much your first couple of years. Of course, you could already have a clientele "base" built up, so to speak, so you could very well start off with a "bang".
You're doing almost exactly the same thing I am (except I'm keeping my regular job, and doing woodworking on the side). However, I would strongly suggest that you talk to a business attorney. Consultations are usually free, and I learned a lot by doing just that. I'm going "official" in the first quarter of next year (I hope), and am going to incorporate. It's going to cost around $1,500.00 to start up. That includes attorney fees, filing fees for the state, everything. A thousand of it is for the "shares". Here's what was explained to me during the consultation (he threw a lot of info at me during the consultation, so you lawyers out there please correct me if I get something wrong):
First, he suggested that I incorporate rather than LLC. Apparently, a corporation is only taxed on profits, whereas an LLC gets taxed on the whole shebang. The attorney has a couple of "corporations", and he said that he pays himself a sizeable bonus at the end of each year, bringing the corporation's profits way down. So, he gets dinged on the bonus as income, but the corporation profit tax is a lot lower. An LLC gets taxed on everything, plus the company owner gets dinged on income as well. Or something like that. There are also issues about a corporation being better when it comes to getting sued for something.
He also told me that I can pull out that thousand bucks after everything is set up (not sure how that works, though), making the initial lay out somewhere around 500 bucks. I know all of this can be done without a lawyer, but I consider it a small price to pay for peace of mind on certain issues, like contracts, collection letters, etc.
Being able to write off new tools as business expenses is nice, too. :)
I may find myself continuing part time for longer than anticipated. But that is Ok too, I will continue to take on more jobs part time and maybe figure out some type of specialty. I have worked for a fairly large general contractor for the last 23 years, and need to continue a few more years until my sons finish college. This work gets to be very stressful at times, and I would like to make a change in a few years. Are you going to incorporate , and continue with your regular job ? I have a lawyer friend that I will discuss the businees end with. What type of woodworking are you doing ? Thanks for your reply.
Robert
Are you going to incorporate , and continue with your regular job ?
Yes, absolutely. Incorporating isn't really a big deal. Fill out a few forms, pay a few fees, and get a tax ID number, basically. I have, for all practical purposes, a nearly complete shop. For a small, one-man show, that is. The nice thing is that all my stuff is paid for, and I won't have any overhead (shop is my detached 2 1/2 car garage). Doing it part-time means if I get a commission, great, if not, no sweat. Hopefully, when I retire (still got 17 years to go), I'll be able to slide into it full-time.
What type of woodworking are you doing ?
Well, anything that comes my way and have the skills to do. I am working on some original (I think) designs which I hope to be able to sell by next year (via a web site, shows, etc.) I'm finishing up this week on a wall mounted display case, which I did design, but it's really nothing special. It's nice, but it's just a box and some moldings, really. Incidentally, that's why I haven't posted anything in the gallery. Everything I've built so far has already been done a million times. But I digress...
Anyway, good luck with your endeavor. Might want to wait 'til your sons finish college to go full time...then they can start making some big bucks and support you ;)
I started off trying to get commissions for any type of furniture, then eventually learned that the only way I was going to make money was by specialising by designing, making and installing custom kitchens. I've been asked about doing bedrooms, bathrooms etc but I turn those down because I would lose money on those until I was up to speed.
Running your own shop is all about speed. The price you can get for your work is fixed by circumstances and the market, so the only way to do well is to work fast. That's another reason for specialising- speed
John
Robert--
Get a free subscription to Custom Woodworking Business magazine http://iswonline.com/index-fs.html
I get a lot out of it in terms of how others actually run their shops.
T
Rev Ted-- thanks for the magazine link. I'm always looking for ways to make work/life better and more efficient , and this looks to be very useful. Now I just have to wait for my first issue.
Lots of good observations here.
I started out on my own in 1991 after 20 years manufacturing furniture. At first I made barely enough to keep the doors open. 12 years later, with the help of a wonderful and patient wife, I am getting within cannon range of six figures, working by myself. I'm about at the top of what one person can do in my niche, and I am going to have to hire and train others if I am going to achieve my further financial goals.
My best advice would be, first, learn basic business economics if you don't know it already. Learn about fixed and variable costs, and how they affect your bottom line. Don't forget how much time sales, design, purchasing, and bookwork take up. Sometimes I was luck to spend half of an 80 hour week actually making something. For a long time, I was taking home less than 20% of my gross, because I had shop rent, utilities, insurance, accounting services, vehicle expense, materials, etc. to pay for. I finally earned a market position where I can charge proper (outrageous) prices for my work, and that helped a lot.
The second thing would be, Don't try to compete with the big guys. When I was running facories we had about five man-hours in building, finishing, and packaging a 72" dresser, and we weren't very efficient by industrial standards. True custom work generally costs at least four times as much as comparable factory made products, so you have to find something that makes your products and services worth that extra money to somebody. In my case, I started out doing those things that other people in the area couldn't or wouldn't do. A lot of times I bit off more than I should have, but education is expensive anywhere you go. My experience with factory furniture finishing finally led to a pretty good niche doing custom interiors in upper bracket houses, along with some custom woodwork and furniture restoration. I took advantage of some skills that people wanted but couldn't find easily.
Third, TEST your ideas. Try out your ideas while you still have resources to fall back on. I had a wonderful wife who had a good income and a lot of patience. I had also been doing this kind of work as a sideline for a while, so I had a fair start. It still took a lot of time to get where I wanted to go.
If you want to do cabinets, you might best focus on the upper end, specialty market. That means you'll have to have the building, finishing, and, most importantly, marketing and sales skills to satisfy this market. If you don't have those skills you might want to consider working for others until you think you do. You just don't have the economies of scale to compete on price.
That's all I can think of for now.
Michael R.
I have the ideal situation, I just retired from teaching and have been working doing remodeling on the side for most of my career. Now I have my own shop and I want to do woodworking full time to supplement my retirement. I talked to my accountant and found that setting up my business as a sole proprietorship is the best and by far the easiest way to go. If after a while, I find I need to incorporate, I can change then. I plan to officially start my business January 1, 04. We can start together and keep in touch as to how it is going. Best of luck on your endeavor.
Ken K
Hi everyone, this is my first post, and I am really excited that I found this BB. I am considering starting my own business too. My local supplier for rough cut lumber has about 600 square feet of store front for rent CHEAP. Right now my shop is in my garage and my wife is already complaining about scraping snow off her car LOL. My thoughts are, 1: I need a BIGGER shop , I had planned on building one in the back yard in the spring. 2: I need somewhere to show and sell my wares. I figure I can kill 2 birds with one stone. Rent the store front and use most as a shop.
I am looking at it in this way, if I only make enough to cover the small rent, I haven't spent Lots of money building a shop, and I am basically enjoying my hobby for free! And if later on, I start to make some money, then HOORAY!!!
I have been a carpenter for a while, but because of 2 ankle and 1 back operations, that really isn't in my future. So, working indoors at my own pace seems a lot more appealing to me :). I have a few local shops that want small things on consignment, and that has been working pretty well so far, but I have really been limited by my garage size.
Well what do you think? Any input would really be appreciated! Does this sound plausible to you fellow woodworkers?
Thanks for your time.
John
Before you sign the rental contract, be sure the city or other authority having jurisdiction, will allow woodworking in that building. There is something called occupancy classification which, briefly, is a determination of the suitibility of a structure for the use for which it is put. In other words you can't have ammunition reloading plants next to the nursing home. It would be a shame to sign an obligation for a year's rent and discover that you can't set up a shop behind the showroom. Good luck.
$65,000 to $90,000, net
The kind of work you do will determine the size space you need. My garage is over 800 square feet, and it quickly became impossible for me. I can't even get all my equipment into 1500 square feet and still have room to make anythig. But if you have limited equipment and don't make big things, then 600 SF might be adequate for a while.
As for income, that depends on your business and marketing skills even more than your technical abilities. There are plenty of good woodbutchers starving to death because they don't know how to price or market their products, as mentioned above. There's a pretty long learning curve for most people before you start earning decent money.
You'll probably find that consignment's a poor way to sell. There's not much incentive to sell when you've got no money in the product, and people who want items on consignment usually don't seem to know enough to buy merchandise with confidence. On the other hand you should get a better price if and when it sells.
I'm a great fan of testing before committing. If you can get the building on a month-to-month basis to try it out, and can afford the cost, then I would say give it a try. But don't quit your day job until you know it is working. Either way, you will learn something that will leave you better prepared for the next step.
By the way, if you can "work at your own pace" and make a good living, I hope you'll tell us all how you do it. Most of us that do pretty well work pretty hard at it -- much more so than at a regular job.
Michael R
Hi, thanks for the replies!! The owner of the building runs a saw mill in the back half of it, so I dont think I will have any problems, I know for certain there are no zoning issues. LOL And it would be on a 6 month renewable lease. Like I said, I know the guy, I buy my rough cut from him. It sure would be easy if I ran out of cherry in the middle of a project, just walk next door. ( as a side note, he sold me about 50 bf of 1x8x4' shorts of the nicest looking cherry for only $20, and about 45 bf of the same in oak for $15, was I ever happy)
As far as myself, I am disabled, so when I said I wanted to work at my own pace, I just meant, as much as I can handle without pain. I know I will NEVER make a living doing this, I would just be happy to pay the $250 rent. My wife is an RN, and I take care of my 18 month old, with help. So woodworking is just something to do that I have always loved. If it paid the bills and gave me some lunch money, I would be glad.
600 square feet is about 3x what I have useable in my garage, everything has to be on wheels. So for a while, it would be heaven :) I don't build large projects because of my disability, I even need help with lifting sheet goods. I like doing small things like chests and shelves, and small tables. They are easy for me to move and assemble myself.
I just missed the smell of sawdust, so after the last surgury, when I recovered, I started screwing around a little in garage, bought a few middle of the road tools(nothing too cheap, nothing too expensive) and use some I had from constuction and do what I can. I had been using S4S lumber from local supplier, but was running about $8 bf for cherry, so I broke down and bought thickness planer and now get rough cut for $1.50 for long stock.
I have even recently started supervising for habitat for humanity, can't work much, but sit on my butt and help others. It just gets me out of the house and talking to people older that 18 months.
My next investment will be jet cab saw with free bosch router and router raiser, to replace my poor old tired craftsman. I read lots of reviews, and it seems like it has been pretty well received.
Well enough babbling, as you can see by the times on my posts, I dont sleep well because of the pain, so I end up just roaming around the net trying to learn about stuff LOL.
Thanks for your input.
John
Have you considered what making any income will do to your disability check? Perhaps you might consider forming a corporation with your wife as the principle owner and pay you a very small salary to keep your income low. I understand being on disability and not being able to do a lot of woodworking as I am on it too. I have gone back to college to become a shop teacher. Unfortunately, there are no universities in Texas teaching woodworking anymore. The courses lean more toward preengineering and CAD. Twenty years ago the university I am going to had a KILLER woodworking program. They still have the machines and I am trying to figure out how to take a problems course and use their toys. I hope to be able to teach industrial technology in high school and save some kids from a life of "would you like fries with that?"
I am glad that you are trying to do something instead of sitting in front of a tv watching reruns of TOH.
Chuck
Hi Chuck, thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I dont get any money. I worked for myself as a contractor, so no disability insurance. And Social Security said I was TOO young and had TOO much education to get any.
I went to college for trade and industrial training, it was a masters program, to get into it, you had to take vocational ed. My specialty was Architectural drafting. I loved it, but didn't finish because of the money thing. (didn't have enough, so thought I could make plenty working for myself) so I left to go to work.
Boy do I wish now that I wasn't so stupid and had stayed in school!!! If I went back now, I would have to start from scratch, believe it or not college credits expire.
Thanks again John
John, were you counting on foot traffic as a way of selling your products? I don't have enough information to go on, really, but at first blush I'd think that a sawmill wouldn't necessarily be located in an area that attracts a lot of shoppers. Or, those shoppers might be the "do-it-yourselfers" who, as someone said above, will just admire your work while stopping off to get lumber, take your ideas and build things themselves.
Is shop space the issue? I can certainly see the need for space that pays for itself or lets your wife use the garage as it was originally intended. I've had to go shopping for space, too. This may be a great deal for that purpose... or it may not.
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
Hi David, foot traffic isn't really that big of an issue, but the building is on a very busy road, so I think I can expect a reasonable amout of walk in business. This whole idea isn't as much about making a living, as it is about having a nice shop. I stopped out there today and talked to hime again. He offered me a different deal today, he would divide the building differently, and give me 1120 ft sq with electric and heat/ac included for $500 a month. Only thing I would be responsible for would be a phone if I wanted one. He said I could have his lighted marqee for free with the deal.
It's not really a lumber yard per say, it is more just a guy with a nice building out front, and a portable saw in back. To be honest, I think he sells more firewood than lumber. LOL He is really hard to catch there when you need lumber, and he even mentioned that we could work something out to where he would take money off the rent if I sold some lumber for him while I was there.
On another note, I was shopping for insurance for it today, what does liability and loss insurance run for everyone a month? just wondering.
I will let everyone know what is happening when I decide.
Thanks again for the input.
John
I started my business in about 500 square feet and am now in about 2000. Sometimes I look back fondly on the smaller shop and remember how close everything was and how I didn't have far to move in between operations. I'm sure that I walk 20 times as far nowdays as then. I would advise you to rent the space. It sounds ideal for one in your situation.
John,
You mention your disabled. Check for the nearest vocational rehab office in your area. They have a great deal of help to offer in starting a business. They can offer assitance for you even if your only looking to do this less than full time including some grant monies (in my area it is $2500).
The program is run by the feds so it should be avialble in all states.
Crossroads
John,
I had some experience displaying my wares with my hardwood supplier. the problem with that is ................they see it, they think they can build it, no sales. I was just giving them ideas they hadn't thought of before. I pulled my pieces out after about 2 months. I still buy my lumber there though!
Good Luck
Fasteddie
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