Replies

1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Dec 18, 2007 09:31pm | #1

   Willy,

   There's a bit more info. needed.  Is the desk heavily used?  What application method are you using for the shellac?  Is there likely to be liquids consumed at the desk?

   These are just for starters as I'm sure you'll get more.

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

1. 
   willy | Dec 19, 2007 03:37am | #3

   I hope I'm not getting out of my depth, Bob. Most of my finishing has been with a wipe on combination of BLO, Mineral Spirits and Varnish. FW's survey of finishes shows most use shellac so I thought I would give it a try. The desk is not heavily used and my wife assures me she never consumes drinks at the desk. I plan on brushing it on. I mixed my own shellac with a 1:8 ratio of shellac flakes and methyl hydrate. I was going to let it dry between coats, sand lightly then apply the next coat. Is anything applied after the desired number of coats i.e. a paste wax?

1. 
   user-83153 | Dec 19, 2007 06:25am | #4

   Willy,

   Don't let people intimidate you with horror stories about shellac application. It's not that hard. Practice a few times on some scrap until you feel confident. If you do run into trouble, come here and ask for specific solutions to your problems.

   Using shellac mixed fresh is a good thing to do. Shellac is more resistant to water vapor, dries faster and harder when it is fresh. Shellac is usually mixed by weight of shellac vs. volume of alcohol (methyl hydrate). I'm not sure what pound cut you get by mixing at a volume to volume ratio of 1:8. It would depend on how crushed up the flakes you have are among other variables. I've seen some pretty big flakes and I've seen it crushed to a powder. Obviously a cup of shellac powder would weigh considerably more than a cup of large flakes. Maybe you could weigh the amount you used and figure out what pound cut you have that way. I would suggest using around a two pound cut until you get the hang of it. I spray it at 2 to 2 1/2 pounds and that seems to work out pretty good for me.

   You can wax after your final coat if you want. Or you can rub it out, or just leave it if you are happy with it. One of the advantages of shellac is that it can be rubbed out after a day or two instead of the month that varnish takes. Another is that it dries so fast that dust nibs are rarely a problem. The biggest advantage though, is the way that it looks on cherry (and many other woods), it will be worth the trouble of learning a new finish.

2. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Dec 19, 2007 04:23pm | #5

   I hope I'm not getting out of my depth

   Go for it willy!

   About a year ago I read some of frenchy's posts trying to help another Knotter in here and was kinda fascinated with his approach.  I had never used shellac as a finish B4. 

   At the time I was making a plane/chisel cabinet for the woodshop, out of birch and I thought, let's give shellac a go.  Sanded all the parts through the grits to 220.  I don't have the luxury of a lot of space in my shop so I loaded all the pieces into the Jeep and headed for the heated shop at work on the weekend.

   First mistake:  I was too fussy applying it and tried to rub here and there to make it look better.  At first it did but when it dried it looked like (insert expletive here)!  Then I remembered something being said about just wiping it with DNA and voila, much better.  Lesson learned: DON'T MESS WITH IT!  Get it with the next coat.

   I'm not sure what cut you get with a 1:8 ratio, but I like it to be about 1½ lb. cut, at least on the first few coats.  I've not yet mixed my own from flakes but that is in the near future.

   My experience (rather short) with shellac is that I find it to be one of the most forgiving finishes that I've ever used.  For the quality of finish that you get it's amazingly easy to apply and I don't think it's versatility can be challenged by many other finishes.

   I think you'll also like it and just jump in and give it a whoosh!  I like padding it on for thin coats and I use several of them.  I'm working on a Queen Anne piece that I will French Polish (next finishing challenge) at least the top.

   Regards,

    Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

1. 
   frenchy | Dec 19, 2007 05:34pm | #6

   Bob,

    Let me know how you like french polishing.  I tried it (just once!) and found it to be extremely tiring and tedious but the end was fantastic.  I'm wondering if there is a gimick (like overthinning) that works to make it easier

1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Dec 19, 2007 06:33pm | #7

   Hi frenchy,

   I read an article in FWW and have also done some research on the WEB.  It seems that fresh shellac is a must and so I'm going to do a double whammy, get some flakes (on order) and make my own; and then try the French Polish. 

   Right now I'm trying to determine the best oil to use as a lubricant.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

   I will prepare some cherry pieces for testing and keep careful records of the steps that I take.  Ya wanna be able to do it again, right!?

   Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

2. 
   frenchy | Dec 19, 2007 09:19pm | #8

   Bob,

    I really take exception to the fresh flakes arguement..

      get  a really old something that is shellaced.  In my case a 70 year old piano.. I wiped all the old shellac off with fresh denatured alcohol and because it was sitting at the time on the sub floor I used to ring out the clothe right on the subfloor, who cares?  it's going to be covered up.

     The problem is, the shellac is in great shape!

     70 year old flakes reused in great shape..

    someone over at breaktime I think it was, reported the same.. he stripped a 50 year old floor and just reused the shellac for the first coat..

     Dried quickly nice and hard!

       Now take the flakes out of the equation.. lets get  some alcohol and let it  get stale..

     leave the cap off a can for a while. moisture gets in and attaches itself to the alcohol (hey, that's what alcohol does! ;-)  plus the light ends of the alcohol molecue go away..

     Now buy some fresh shellac and mix it up. I'll promise you a gooey mess that will take forever to dry!

     So which do you think is the problem

    flakes or alcohol? 

    

     

    

3. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Dec 19, 2007 10:05pm | #9

   The flaky guy?

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

   Edited 12/19/2007 2:05 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres

4. 
   frenchy | Dec 19, 2007 10:15pm | #10

   Bob,

       I honestly wonder if when I'm working with shellac that would raise my blood alcohol numbers up.  Could I be arrested for a DUI after a big shellac job? 

5. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Dec 19, 2007 11:32pm | #11

   frenchy,

   But officer, "I tried but I couldn't inhale"!  Gee, I wonder where that lie came from?

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

   Edited 12/19/2007 3:33 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres

6. 
   Rich14 | Dec 20, 2007 12:55am | #12

   frenchy,you have often posted your rather unusual recommendations regarding shellac.As a lover of shellac, second in passion to no one, and as someone who is on record as recommending the use of shellac flakes, freshly dissolved, rather than using "store-bought-dissolved" variety, once again I express my disagreement with some of your advice. As you know, I have many years of experience applying shellac and feel that I can apply a "french polish" finish with the best of them. I don't think such abilities are especially remarkable in any way and are in line with many, many others who contribute here. Anyone can learn to get beautiful results with shellac. It's the most forgiving finish I can name. All myths to the contrary notwithstanding.This is in the friendly atmosphere of this forum. We all have opinions. I advise readers never to take advice they get here as the "gospel" (especially when there are diametrically opposing views) but to use opinions here as a "starting point" for their own practical experimentation or experience.FWIW, here's my 2c.Frenchy, the age of shellac flakes very definitely makes a difference, a huge one, in the quality of the final, dry shellac layer on a finished piece.You have repeatedly used your experience that alcohol, applied with a rag (in what I assume is a wiping effort of at least a moderately vigorous type) will remove even very old shellac to "prove" that the hapless shellac is responding as fresh shellac does when dissolved and that it could, if desired, be re-used to achieve a fine finish.Nothing could be further from the truth.I assure you that I have had batches of shellac "go bad." Work with the stuff long enough. Let a jar of it stand long enough, and anyone will eventually run into a batch that just doesn't harden. Countless finishers have had the experience. Why do you think Zinser puts an "expiration date" on their products? Zinser achieves extraordinarily long shelf life with their proprietary chemistry, but eventually, dissolved shellac just doesn't "work." To assert that the "old shellac doesn't work advice" is a myth is simply an effort to ignore the experience of countless others.The same is true of flakes stored long enough under conditions where heat and moisture can affect them. I've had some flakes last years without problem, while other batches have become unusable in 6 months. They just will not dissolve. Ordinarily, my flakes, when good, dissolve in 15 minutes (I grind them to a fine powder first in an electric coffee mill, used only for shellac). When they don't dissolve by 24 hours, they never will.The fact that an "old shellac" finish film can be removed from a wood surface with an alcohol-soaked rag says nothing about the ability of shellac to retain the characteristics needed to act as a finishing material. Even the fact that alcohol can be used to gently wipe and "heal" the surface of an existing shellac finish which has been scratched or abraded says nothing about old shellac retaining the ability to perform as a finishing material.You are completely confusing the two situations.Maybe you could provide some other compelling evidence to back your interesting contention that old shellac can be used as a finishing material. For instance, you could acquire a lot of old furniture, finished in shellac. Then carefully scrape the shellac film off, until you actually had several ounces of dry shellac "flakes," which you could then try to dissolve in alcohol and use to "refinish" something. But even if the old shellac completely dissolved to a transparent solution, as does fresh shellac, and dried to a hard film, I'm not sure what practical lesson would be learned. Because shellac finishers would never use such material, and would continue to discard any supply of flakes which showed reluctance to dissolve, or any mixed batches which showed a reluctance to harden.Well, enough disagreeing. And we haven't even touched on your advice about using very dilute shellac solutions as the "secret" of successful application. As you know, I completely disagree with that advice and consider the method to be self-defeating.Rich

   Edited 12/19/2007 4:58 pm ET by Rich14

2. 
   frenchy | Dec 19, 2007 03:03am | #2

   willy,

    I'm sorry there are a lot of people who have some very intense feelings on that subject.. In the end the answer is what works for you..

     Plus shellac is seldom applied straight out of the can and if so you will have a difficult time keeping a wet edge on it.. the result is noteable brush marks.

       I use thinned shellac and don't have those issues or basically 1 pound cut.. I apply three coats really really quickly, just flood them on, thinned that way you don't get brush marks or runs (well you do but they blend together so well as to disappear)..

     The process is one coat and wait 15 minutes.. then sand off the resulting nubs being care to use a sanding block. apply the second coat again really quickly just flooding it on. that takes 30 minutes to dry and I then apply the third and final coat that takes an hour to dry..

    Thicker isn't better, you tend to get alligatoring issues with overly thick coats. Alligatoring doesn't show up for a long time, it's often the result of wood shrinking and expanding based on humiditydust and dirt gets trapped and starts to alligator..

     

    

3. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 21, 2007 10:29am | #13

   A few? Whatever that is.. More the better I'd guess!