I don’t have a woodworking handsaw. I have a large cross-cutting saw for tree limbs, a flush-cut saw for dowels and such. Every other saw I have that cuts wood has a motor.
I’m building a shelf and as an exercise I wanted to hand-cut tenons for finger joints on a board. So I figured I’d go to Lee Valley and buy a decent handsaw.
I’m not that rich! I mean I can shell out 120$ for an awesome handsaw if it’s the only woodworking handsaw I’ll ever need. But I can’t justify spending more on a set of handsaws than I did on my table saw.
So my question is: would it make any sense for me to get one good-quality handsaw or do I really need a collection of different sizes and types? The specs on the ripping and cross-cutting Lee Valley joinery saws seem nearly identical. What are the reasons I shouldn’t get the largest one they make?
Are the japanese saws less stiff or harder to use or just smaller? Why are they cheaper?
One day I’d like to become comfortable cutting quick dovetails, box joints, and maybe tenons. For other work I’ll probably stick with machines.
Thanks in advance.
Replies
Since cutting tenons(true tenons, not finger joints) requires both ripping and crosscutting it can be difficult to get by with just one saw since a saw designed for crosscutting will likely bind and be difficult to use when ripping and a saw designed to rip would likely leave a rougher cut when cross cutting.
Your best solution would be a medium sized Japanese-style Ryoba saw which has ripping teeth on one side and cross cutting teeth on the other. Since it doesn't have a backbone you aren't limited in your depth of cut either making it possible to use it for both ripping and crosscutting not just joinery. While it is a bit large for traditional joinery work like dovetails it can be used. I also have found cutting on the pull stroke more natural and easier to learn than western saws that cut on the push stroke. Good quality Ryobas with replaceable blades can be found for around $50
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/razorsaw-ryoba-saw-300mm-no-616-with-replaceable-blade-gyokucho
PS. I attribute the Japanese Saws being cheaper for a good quality saw to the fact that they have thinner blades and simpler construction. Whereas western saws not only have thicker steel required to cut on the push stroke without flexing, but also backbones and elaborate handle designs adding to their costs.
Mr 5995 correctly identifies "one saw to ....." but even a good ryoba isn't really "the only saw you'll ever need" - especially to cut joinery like tenons and finger joints.
You can find vids on the interwebbery of blokes making "perfect joints, first time" with nowt but a saw or two and a few swift cuts. But for us mere mortals it isn't always that easy. A Japanese saw can certainly track well and leave a finer surface than many Western saws on sawed joinery .... but you still have to be able to use it well (especially, start it well) and even then .....
Tenons need to be cut perfectly on four and possibly more (e.g. with a haunch) faces - square, exactly to the lines and without leaving a rough or bumpy surface. In practice, it's often safer to cut them a smidge oversize then fair them with a chisel, shoulder plane or (better) a router plane.
Finger joints are notorious for being difficult to cut well enough with a hand saw. The slightest error can throw the whole row out when it comes to fitting several small protrusions to several other small protrusions. You'd think they'd be the same or easier than dovetails by hand .... but they're harder, in practice. Their regularity also means that even slight errors look worse, even if you can stuff any teeny gaps with bits of veneer & glue.
A ryoba could nevertheless do the types of cut needed. But there are many sizes of ryoba, from great big ones for resawing and cross cutting large beams to quite small ones perhaps made for the sort of joinery you're planning. And several sizes in between. The sizes affect blade length & breadth but also the tpi, tooth-set and thickness of blade. You may need to choose the size carefully to suit the nature of the joints you plan to hand saw.
You should also be aware that there are Japanese saws other than the ryoba meant for specific sorts of sawing, just as with Western saws. Those meant for cutting tenons often have a "back" for example. Some have hybrid teeth - claimed to be able to perform both cross cuts and rips - often sold as suitable for cutting mitres.
Japanese (like Western) saws evolved to suit different purposes. A ryoba is a useful do-it-all but is not necessarily the best saw for specific (and very demanding) sawing tasks.
Lataxe
In your position, I bought a veritas dovetail saw.
It is just fine for tenons too.
The bow saw is my go to do everything saw. I made one from a 27 X 1 1/2 inch blade sold by lee valley 40 years ago and still use it for everything from cutting the Christmas tree to tenons and dovetails when power tools set up is impractical. This one from Paul Sellers is very similar and using it with a miter box will improve accuracy. If only I could find a new blade !
https://paulsellers.com/2015/10/making-frame-saws/
Japanese saws are my go to saws for all my Woodworking needs I would seriously consider looking at Japanese tools in general they are wonderful cheers.
Rob_SS while I will never say bad things about the Veritas tools, I own many, and I'm not saying you aren't able to use it for other tasks, the drawback to their dovetail saw as an all purpose saw is two-fold the tooth pattern while generally a rip style grind are closer spaced making it most suitable for thinner stock and rip grinds tend to tear the wood rather that cut the fibers when cross cutting leaving a rougher cut. On top of that the backbone limits depth of cut to rough 1½" often not enough for tenons.
The Royba is truly the only real jack of all trades when it comes to small handsaws although it wouldn't be my first choice for Joinery it does a very serviceable job if it's sized properly.
Another thing to consider is it's possible to purchase 2-3 very serviceable Japanese handsaws for the price of 1 Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or other premium brand making it possible to get saws ideally suited for the task at hand.
I use a 12 inch crosscut carcase saw for everything. Dovetails, Dad is, tenons, you name it. As long as it will fit under the saw's back, it cuts great, regardless. Being crosscut, it might, maybe, take 3 seconds longer to cut a dovetail than a rip saw. But it does a fantastic job, where a rip filed saw will butcher a crosscut.
Mine is a canted model from Lie Nielsen.
I agree with 5995 I also own a lie Nielsen dovetail saw and a Veritas dovetail saw that never gets used so if you want to go that route let me know I would gladly sell mine. cheers.
I find I grab my Suizan Dovetail saw for a lot of joinery needs. It has smaller crosscut teeth, but also has a back to stiffen it and keep the blade straight.
I have a Ryoba that I use for a lot of things, rough cross cuts, or general ripping. I also have a couple collapsible ones I throw in my toolbox and take to jobsites.
I have some older Disston rip/crosscut saws and a couple of older backsaws, a small gents saw and several different iterations of flush cuts... But, I prefer Japanese style pull saws to western style push saws. So, most of them sit, gathering dust.
One advantage western saws have is the ability to be re-sharpened. One advantage Japanese saws have is that you don't have to sharpen them, the blades are replaceable and affordable.
The teeth on Japanese saws are cut, set and then hit with an electrical charge to harden them. It's a quick and affordable way to mass produce blades. It also doesn't require as expensive steel. The pull action doesn't require as heavy a steel, either. Another cost saving feature.
I have both, but I'd vote for Japanese saws too. Just pay attention to the push/pull difference as it does require some change in technique.
Buy used rip and crosscut saws and learn how to sharpen. You'll probably spend less than fifty dollars and have fun restoring some cool old tools.
If I had to pick one (and I own a few), I would go with Florip Toolworks benchtop saw in a hybrid tool cut. It looks nice and can do a lot of things. For my small portable tool kit, this is the one that I carry.
If you were going to get three saws, I would go with one rip pannel saw, one cross cut pannel saw, and one dovetail saw. Lots of brands to choose from. LieNielsen saws are good. These three wodl cost more than the one though.
So I have a Veritas carcass saw (crosscut) and two Japanese saws (ryoba for general-purpose and dozuki for joinery).
Honestly, I've had the best experience with the latter. Out of the box, all three saws perform equally well in their respective work, but I'm partial to the thinner kerf of the Japanese saws and enjoy the benefits of cutting on the pull stroke. The Veritas saw tends to gather dust from lack of use, and it dulls more quickly. For the price, Japanese saws are a great place to start unless you plan to take up saw sharpening, which is really only feasible with the tooth pattern on a Western-style saw. Hope this helps!
Thank you everybody!
It's a tough decision but based on all your descriptions I'm leaning more towards a ryoba.
I'm wary of how hard it will be to make good cuts with it, since it seems impossible to change the direction of the cut after I start. I expect I can get good at it with practice, so hopefully it will serve well enough until I get some experience.
Is it a good thing that the Lee Valley ryoba doesn't have a replaceable blade? Maybe it wobbles less or is positioned better or something? My understanding is that typically the blade is replaceable. But I'm willing to pay more for a better tool, especially since it will be my first of the type and I need to learn the basics.
Buy the one with the replaceable blade. You will kink it eventually. I've had mine a looooong time and I keep a spare in the shop.
Also, in all honesty, a Japanese saw with a back on it isn't very expensive and that back really can help in achieving nice straight lines and tight joints.
@AndrewSmithCanada -- usually ryobas have a replaceable blade, which can save you a few bucks down the road... I started out with a Ryoba and it served me very well while I learned how to restore western saws and get into those. Sometimes I still prefer the Ryoba. I have always used Gyokucho brand (I get them from Hida Tool but I am in the US http://hidatool.com). To be honest, I find it easier for me to cut straight with a pull saw than a push saw. You can change the cut direction quite easily since the blade is thin and flexible (but be careful not to kink it!). Good luck!
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