I’m making a very basic large table and bought redwood 4×4’s for the legs (the top will be a sheet of plywood). I picked out a nice piece of wood and had it cut at Home Depot to fit in my trunk. When the guy gave me the cut wood I noticed that the ends felt quite wet and I realized my mistake. No wonder the wood was so heavy! The table will be inside, and I’d like to be able to put finish on the legs, of course. Anyway, is this at all usable for table legs, or should I buy something kiln dried? I think I know the answer to this, just hoping someone would say, “go ahead and use it!” I’m planning to make a mortise and tenon joint, but could also do biscuits. I used to work in a shop, but now am a stay at home mom with very limited equipment, so that’s why I bought the 4×4’s. By the way, sorry I posted this on the Fine Woodworking site since this is obviously not fine woodworking I’m asking about!
Janine
Replies
The moisture can air dry out over a period of time, but more importantly, what is the grain like in the 4x4's you bought. There's a good chance they were made from the very center of the tree, or close to it, and may not do well for support purposes in a piece of furniture. Take a look at the end grain and tell us what it looks like.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hmm, I don't think it comes from the center because the lines on the end grain pretty much go diagonally across. Also, I don't have time to wait for it to dry! I think I should just "cut my losses" and get another piece. Thanks!
Janine
Yep, if you need to make them now, get KD lumber. You don't want those legs turning into some kind of free-form art a month after you finish them.
"By the way, sorry I posted this on the Fine Woodworking site since this is obviously not fine woodworking I'm asking about!" Not to worry! Post here any time, and welcome!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I think it would be best to cut your losses now. Think up some garden or patio project to use what you bought, and get KD wood for your table.
DR
I say go for it. The greenness shouldn't be a problem for mortise and tenon joinery, because the mortises and tenons will shrink about the same amount as it dries. Cut the joints with a fairly snug fit and use polyurethane glue. The only real disadvantage is that unless your tools are really, really sharp, the wet redwood will tend to mush rather than cut. Not a real problem cutting tenons, but the mortises could get to be a little aggravating.
Unc,
"the mortises and tenons will shrink about the same amount as it dries". Not really. Remember that in most all M&T joinery the tennon is perpindicular and rotated to the mortice. As I'm sure you know lumber shrinks mostly across face of a flatsawn, or the thickness of a Q-sawn board. If you make on green M&T joint it will loosen up considerably because the two pieces are shrinking in different axis. If he got his redwood the way mine usually comes it is not only a little wet... it is GREEN. And Red Wood moves a lot. Of course if you are building a rough period type piece then you can get away with loose mortices and use pins, or wedges to secure it together.
For what its worth,
Mike
You're right. I was just thinking of the short dimension of the mortise and tenon.
Put the wet redwood somewhere dry and cool and forget about it for a few months. Find some dry 4 by 4s and begin again!
OK, Janine, go ahead and use it! (You said you were waiting for someone to say it!)
OK, back to reality. In order to use wood for furniture, the moisture content should be between 6%-8%. Obviously, yours is much more than that. As it dries it will not only twist, but it will actually shrink, especially on the flat sawn side.
You can let it air dry, but the rule of thumb is a year an inch. In other words, if your 4X4 is actually 3-1/2 X 3-1/2, it will take at least 3-1/2 years to sufficently dry.
Sorry I really couldn't tell you what you wanted to hear.
Larry
Where are you that you can even get Redwood, much less 4x4s, at HD? I can't even get anything (4x4) for building the base of my workbench at Lowes or HD (other than PT lumber).
Actually I think you could use them, if you use M&T joints and peg them. Drawbore the pegs. One advantage to redwood is it doesn't shrink nearly as much as most woods as it dries. Disadvantages: it is so soft that it is difficult to cut, your tools have to be razor-sharp; it is so soft that it dents easily; and it is splintery. I think it is a terrible furniture wood.
You won't be able to apply finish for a while, until the wood dries. Ignore that "rule of thumb" about a year per inch; it applies to hardwoods, and redwood dries out MUCH faster than that! Still, it will probably take several months for it to equilibrate, so you are better off buying new KD wood.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I thought that Redwood was bad like cedar when it comes to shrinkage. Was I wrong? I have never bought any wood except Redwood and Ceadar that wasn't kiln dried, so I guess I don't have a very good compairison.
Mike
I am literally surrounded by redwood, in more ways than one: we put B&B siding on our house, the boards were milled from trees cut on the property. We have to dodge the trucks carrying logs to the mills when we drive out to get the mail. Redwood is amazing stuff in many ways. It is vastly different from any hardwood, in almost every way (except for the fact that it grows back when cut, unlike all other conifers). It does not shrink much on drying, and moves very little once dried. It hardly end-checks at all. Tangential and radial shrinkage are similarly small - flatsawn boards cup very little if allowed to dry evenly. The sapwood is extremely susceptible to decay, while the heartwood is extremely resistant. It will not dry at all while the bark is on the log, but once cut, the lumber air-dries very rapidly. Nearly all of it is very straight-grained and unfigured, but some will contain spectacular fiddleback or curly figure, and the well-known burls are highly figured.Pretty nearly all redwood now available is second or third growth, trees around 40 to 60 years old. The lumber from these young trees is quite different from the old-growth, or even from 100-year trees. It is not nearly so rot-resistant, has a high percentage of sapwood, and is not as stable. (There are stumps on my property from trees cut about 130 years ago; the wood is hard and sound from the cut face to several feet below ground. The voracious and abundant termites we have here will consume a fir 2x4 lying on the ground in a year.)Janine - redwood is seldom kiln-dried, mainly because it is mostly used in outdoor applications. Some is KD for interior trim work, but that's a small market. I doubt you can find KD redwood 4x4. It air-dries so rapidly that there is hardly any need to kiln it anyway. And as little as I like it for furniture, it's still WAY better than Douglas Fir, which has all of redwood's drawbacks (soft, splintery) plus several more of its own (pitchy, less stable, slower to dry, and the super-high contrast between early and late wood).
Edited 8/16/2005 11:41 am ET by AlbionWood
Janine, certainly you can use it. It can be soaking wet and still usable for table legs,not for a top or something glued up.Windsor chairs are made from green wood, only the seat is dried. Make the mortise and tenons,leave the tenon 1/8" short of the depth of the mortise.Drawbore and peg the tenon, don't bother with glue, not needed.If you are not familiar with a drawbored tenon,here's my best explanation.
After fitting the mortise and tenon, REMOVE the rail and bore 1 or 2 holes for pegs or dowels.Usually 1/4" or 3/8" pegs are used. Put the rail back, take the bit you bored with out of the drill. Use a brad point bit, now lightly tap the brad point into the tenon. Remove the rail, where the point is on the tenon mark 1/16" AWAY from the leg. Bore these holes,the hole will be offset from the holes in the leg.Put rail back and tap in a pointed dowel. The leg will tighten up to the rail without a drop of glue.Cut the excess dowel off the back of the leg. The front can be flush, or if you like you could have a square peg that is slightly raised and champhered .You would have to start with a square stick and whittle a round on it.Remember to keep the tenon a bit short of the mortise or the rail won't pull up tight.Wait a while before you put a finish on it, it'll be dry enough for a finish in six months or so. I do not know how much moisture is in the 4x4 now, just guessing as how long to wait. If you can wait til next year at this time you'll be fine for a finish.
mike
Are you sure it is redwood? I have never seen redwood for sale that was not dried. I guess it could be but I wonder. Also, it's been quite a while since I saw any 4x4 redwood.
Are you sure you didn't get some type of treated lumber?
For those who said to wait for a while. The "while" will be two or more years for green wood that thick to dry to furniture use dryness of about 12%.
Thanks for all of the suggestions; especially the explanation of drawboring. I really think I will get a new piece, though. I just called Home Depot to find out if it truly was wet wood and after giving the sku numbers, she said that yes, it is wet and that they don't kiln dry their redwood (which I'm not sure I believe). I was at Lowe's today ready to buy another 4x4 piece and checked to make sure it was dry, and he said yes. Of course I couldn't actually buy it because they didn't have a radial arm saw yet in the store for them to cut the wood in half. They didn't even have a hand saw for me to use! For those who can't find 4x4 redwood, I'm in San Diego, CA. Maybe I'm close enough to the source of redwood? I really should just get douglas fir, but it is so rough compared to the redwood. I wouldn't even have to scrape the redwood.
Janine
Doug fir (construction grade) would be much more likely I think to give you problems down the road. It may be "kiln dried" but probably not very carefully and not to a super-dry level.
Thanks to AlbionWood for giving us some excellent info about redwood.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Janine, take it back to Home Despot, but first take a photo of the wood and print out several 'Notices' to pin on to telephone poles and explain that if anyone who buys wood in H D is crazy. Show a few to manager. Betcha he'll give you a refund? Steinmetz.
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