Opinions on Horizontal Boring Machine
MatthewSchenker
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hi All,
In various ways, this topic has come up before, but I’m really curious about how people actually make use of a horizontal boring machine. It looks like one of these machines would be a joy to have in the woodshop.
I’m seriously considering either building one or buying one for doing slot mortises, tenons, and other joinery. Building one that has proper front-to-back, side-to-side, and up-and-down movement might not be as cost-effective as just buying one.
Like other people, I have looked at the Grizzly G0540 model, which appears adequate. But it has only 3,450 RPM. My router, by contrast, runs narrow bits at 24,000 RPM.
Is 3,450 RPM enough for mortising and tenoning work?
Replies
Hi Matthew ,
IMO a horizontal boring machine is great for doweling parts of woodwork , I have used the Ritter machine and in the right application it's an awesome tool . Since the boring machines rpm is much less than router type cutters are made to run at optimum performance , I am suggesting you go with a mortiser or router combo tool to accomplish the cuts you speak of , instead of trying to modify a machine to do what it was not intended to do .
good luck dusty
notDusty,
I never use dowels. Curently, I use my router table to cut mortises and tenons. Sometimes, I use the bandsaw for the tenons. I was hoping to have a machine that would allow me to do both, but perhaps I misunderstand what horizontal boring machine does?
if you look at commercial slot mortisers they tend to run in the 3450 rpms. We have a Griggio slot mortiser in our shop and that's the rpm it runs at. All the shops near me run similar type machines such as the Paolini, SCM. In one shop we converted an old metal working handmill into a slot mortiser for a few hundred bucks plus the machine we bought for scrap metal prices. Laguna sells the X31 mortiser which is the mortising table from the combo machines for around $600 and you can mount a router or a seperate motor with a shaft and pillow blocks. It comes with the mortising chuck. You have to call and ask about this one as it isn't shown on the site. I've talked to several folks running the Grizzly G0540 with good results. Rojek sells a slot mortiser for around $1600 approximately last time I looked. There's a school near me with one where I maintain their equipment. Great for doweling as well. I typically use loose tenons rather than bothering with making tenons on the saw or router table.
I've got the Grizzly and am happy with it. It's not the best fit&finish but way more than adequate for the price. I have found that for slot mortising it works best to do a bunch of bores then come back with a horizontal "clean-out" cut at the end. I get way too much chatter and a less accurate cut if I try to do it as all horizontal cuts, even with shallow passes. Could be the quality of the end-mill bit as well - mine is fron Grizzly.
For repeatability I did make a table - see attached pic
wrudiger,
But in the end, does it produce clean mortises? Do you ever use it for tenons?Again, I think I misunderstood this machine. What I was imagining was something that does what a horizontal router could do. I was planning to build one, as I have seen several nice plans for such machines, but for the money I thought this machine was worth experimenting with, especially because it allows the full X/Y movements.
Matthew,
Yes, very clean mortises. The x/y/z table is great, and gives excellent, repeatable results, as others have stated.
What everyone else said about floating tenons. I've rounded mine over 'cause I'm too obsessive/compulsive and like the look - even though it's hidden :-). I also rip a small groove on each side for excess glue to push out. Based on the comments here I think I'll just go with square stock - this kitchen cabinet project is just too big to play around - LOL!
Wayne
RickL,
Your post opens up other questions! Which is expected, since I obviously was wrong about what a horizontal boring machine can do.
I've been a strong advocate of the horizontal slot mortoiser for over 20 years. If you were in Massachusetts I'd show you. I only use loose tenons or dowels. Too inefficient to bother machining tenons. The slot mortiser goes back to at least the 60's in Europe. Maybe even further. Best for angles and curved stock. By making mortises in rails and stiles you are assured of perfect stock alignment. You want to recess an apron, simply put an shim under the appropriate piece and you are done. It takes about two minutes max to mortise a frame then it's just a matter of slipping in the premade tenon stock. The frame is done before someone could even get their tenon jig out or set up the router table.
Matthew,
A dedicated slot mortising machine with compound table is a good way to do mortises and bore holes for dowels (if you must use dowels) plus several other applications.
This type of machine usually runs direct off the motor shaft and the speeds are therefore 2800rpm or 3450rpm, both of which are good for the correct type of mortising cutter.Don't confuse it with router speeds-it has specific slot morticer bits or cutters.Not really the right thing to do tennons with-in the absence of a tennoning machine I use my shaper to do that.
Somebody else has mentioned the Griggio slot morticer-this is exactly what I have in mind when thinking of a dedicated slot morticer. They also have special chucks-not just ordinary drill type chucks.
I don't know anything about a Grizzly -but I assume it is cast iron at least.
Not a cost effective thing to make up yourself-unless you own a foundry etc.
I have had to make do with a little Inca table to which I fitted a 2800rpm motor-works ok but nothing like the real thing , which is a truly great item to have if you make lots of furniture.
philip,
You wrote this:
"A dedicated slot mortising machine with compound table is a good way to do mortises and bore holes for dowels (if you must use dowels) plus several other applications."I don't use dowels. I like the idea of doing mortises with a machine like this. What are the "other applications" you speak of?
Matthew,
A friend had a huge slot morticer-Pinhiero it was if I spell it correctly. Ofcourse he used it primarily for mortises and drilling holes in long grain-he used to make knock down workbenches. He also made knockdown furniture and the buttons for covering screw holes were made on that Pinhiero, as were various other knobs. He had a profiled cutter mounted on a swivel and the in/out table brought the tool to the job-very heavy machine -no vibrations/chatter. A gentleman would be allocated 2 hours per day to churn out the knobs and buttons- friend reckoned that alone paid for the machine in a short time.
Another function was the sharpening of planer knives-no need to go into detail on that, except that things were hard to get and versatility was a desirable quality.
It also had pneumatic clamping and several types of chuck.
If you have a "decent" machine, you can standardise your mortice widths and lengths and make up tenon stock of suited cross section-shaper or router for the edges,just cut to length when required-nothing wrong with "loose" tenons.Philip Marcou
philip,
Thanks for the background! The more I read, here and elsewhere, the more I'm imagining I could do with a horizonotal boring machine. My remaining question is whether a basic one like the Grizzly will do well for me, or if I need a more expense one.
Matthew,
Don't think of it as a horizontal boring machine-rather think of a Slot Morticer, which also does boring.
I have no knowledge of the Grizzly, although pictures seem to indicate a useful enough item. It depends upon what you will be doing. If you are to do lots of frame and panelwork and other mortice orientated stuff then it is a very good alternative indeed.
It is something I would likefor my set-up, but I want a heavy beast.
Have you seen those that come as attachments to surfacers?(not mickey mouse types)Philip Marcou
Howdie everyone,
I went down to the Grizzly store in Springfield, MO just yesterday. I was able to get my hands on the $300 horizontal boring machine/slot mortiser. It had adjustments for moving the table up and down, into and out of the cutter and left and right. It had stops for right and left travel, but I couldn't find any stops for the in/out travel. I looked and looked and counldn't find anything. I also firmly grabbed hold of the table and applied my weight in all directions. The table flexed especially when I twisted it. I looked to see how it was constructed. Some heavy gauge sheet metal and some rods and bolts held it to the rest of the machine. So I don't know how accurately this thing will work, especially for heavy/long stock.
Maybe it was just a matter of tightening a few bolts/nuts. Maybe that would have taken the twistiness out of the table. And I wonder about the longevity of their direct drive motor, being foreign made and all.
Chills
Chills,
You gets wot you pays for....What do you really expect for 300 bucks? For repeatable accurate work the thing needs some weight,and the table should stay put.
Looking at pictures only that Grizzly looks sound enough for light work and it would require outboard supports . Rods and bolts are the cheap way for the table movements....They gotta keep the cost down some how.
Look up SCM, Griggio,Rojek and you will see better stuff with dovetailed adjustable guides and so on.
If I were to rely on this option for mortising I would want Weight.Philip Marcou
If I were trying to make a living at this the Grizzly would probably not be the best choice. For the work I do it is a great value - reasonably good accuracy and repeatability and better IMHO than a mortising machine.
FYI, there is a depth (in/out) stop - it's a rod adjusted by a set screw that you access from under the table, but only when the table is at a certain position. Yea, pretty hokey, but I haven't seen anything else within a grand of this, and if I'm gonna drop a grand on something it'll be a bandsaw, not a bigger/better boring/slot mortising machine - LOL!
I don't think Chills is "trying to make a living out of this"-he doesn't say.
If you are referring to a hollow square chisel morticer when you say "a mortising machine" then again there are morticing machines and morticing machines-as in mickey and mouse.
I also think we need to be clear on the difference between a Slot Mortiser and a Horizontal Boring Machine:essentially that the HBM is not suitable for making mortices.Philip Marcou
Sorry, have just read your post#25138.4 and see where you coming from now.
To me that is not great for slot mortising-too light, which explains why you do your mortices in the manner you described. Looks fine enough for boring though.
When all is said and done the same old tenets apply-itdepends upon what and how much you want/need to do.
Looking at your Grizzly there is quite a lot for 300 bucks...
Philip Marcou
A lot of what you say about using a machine like this is relevant to my situation as well.What's most important to me is that you say it does have good accuracy. That is important no matter what level you work at!
Edited 8/21/2005 7:54 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Matthew,
"Accurate" is not a precise term. As I said, it has "reasonably good accuracy and repeatability", i.e. for my current level of skill and need it fully fits the bill. Your results may vary.
Wayne
Wayne,
Yes, good point.
How about this -- seems like it's accurate enough to make you happy with the results you get!
Yep, tha's it!
Let us know how your search turns out.
My hands on assessment of Grizzly's HBM is based on how I think a machine should perform. Yes, there is certainly a "get what you pay for mentality" when it comes to tools.
This tool would be great for hobbyist woodworkers. With a tweak here and a tweak there the machine could probably be used satisfactorily by a one man professional woodworking shop.
No I don't do this (woodworking) professionally, although I am a carpenter/millwright.
I am thinking that if you look through the back issues of FWW or other WWing mags you will find a router based slot mortising jig/fixture that will fit the bill. If you have a router already and it mainly sits on the shelf, this could be a cheaper way to go. Plus you get to know the ins and outs of your jig, not to mention maybe using up some plywood/MDF scraps hanging around the shop.
Me, I like the JDS multirouter. Expensive, you bet! I don't have one, yet. Don't know how it compares to the other professional slot mortisers.
Try this 22736.1 to see how I tweaked up my Delta HCM/ Drill press slot mortising. Works real nice now!
Chills
Edited 8/21/2005 10:54 pm ET by chills1994
"This tool would be great for hobbyist woodworkers. With a tweak here and a tweak there the machine could probably be used satisfactorily by a one man professional woodworking shop."
I don't want to stir up a hornets nest here but, why should a hobbyist's M&T joinery not be as good as that as that of one who does woodworking for a living? A sloppy table doesn't sound right for quality craftsmanship regardless of what the tool costs. I am sorry to hear the quality standards for Grizzly machines don't appear to have changed much since my last purchase of them 6 years ago particularly, since so many appear to rave about what great values they are. The bottom line for me is that if the machine or tool doesn't do what its supposed to do, it has negative value since it wastes my time and increases frustration.
Hey Steve50,
I said it would be a great machine for a hobbyist not in terms of quality joinery standards of pro vs. hobbyist, but rather out of time and production.
If you're trying to earn a living at woodworking, them your time is definitely worth some amount of money. With the Grizzly HBM, I think it will eventually be too frustrating to use for a pro, not to mention the time that it would eat to set up and adjust properly, constantly attending to it and rechecking setups. As a hobbyist, one is doing WWing at leisure, almost like a recreation. One can afford the time spent on fiddling with the HBM.
This Grizzly HBM is akin to a Craftsman table saw. Many beginning WWers buy that type of saw, but eventually most will want and buy something better like a Delta Unisaw or a Powermatic 66.
And like my post about using a tweaked cross slide vise on the DP to do slot mortises, I'm wondering if a person had the right chuck and jig/table they could do slot mortising on their lathe.
Chills
Hey Chills, I understand where you are coming from and that some may view their time as a hobbiest as "free" but I don't have this view. I would rather not continually be tweaking on my machinery to get it to work as advertised as I would rather be working wood. I expect a limited amount of setup on a new machine and from then on, I expect it to stay put short or normal wear and tear. In my 25 years of woodworking you could say that I have been there, done that, got the T-shirt on initially buying something less than what I should have. I would consider myself lucky if I could say that my 3 Grizzly purchases were my only disappointments but such is not the case. Overall, this has cost me more in the long run both in time, money, and frustration and I am a hobbiest. IMO, it is better to buy once and cry only once rather than go through the cycle repeatedly.
Steve
Steve,
...imo it is better to buy once etc" .I agree whole- heartedly with that and woulkd go further to say people should not expect certain machines to do things well that they were not intended for in the first place-I suspect that that Grizzly HBM is an example-it looks sort of o.k for boring but it can also do mortising But should not be expected to do mortising very well at all. The essential design requirements are not there.
What do the makers call this machine? A HBM or a Slot morticer?Philip Marcou
philip,
This may be some of the most pertinent points yet on this subject. You're right, of course. We should not expect a machine to do something it is not designed to do, and I think I might have made that mistake with this machine.If even the manufacturer does not claim that a machine can do something, it's probably a bad idea to try and make the machine do that thing. If the machine could do it, and do it well, I'm sure the manufacturer would not miss a chance to announce it! Grizzly is not pushing this machine as a slot mortiser. They are saying it is good if you want to "drill accurate holes into the edges of flat lumber for doweling, hardware alignment or basic mortising." I think what caught my eye was the "basic mortising" comment, but in the course of this discussion I have come to question what that really means.I'm still interested in a machine that can do slot mortising and some tenoning, so I may expand my search, up to a certain price point.Or I might revisit the idea of building my own horizontal router station. I've seen some elegant plans, including some here in this discussion.
Edited 8/22/2005 8:54 am ET by MatthewSchenker
....or basic mortising"- yep, I think Grizzly are being honest enough there. By "basic mortising" I believe they mean the kind you have to do to avoid chatter, creep etc i.e drill a series of holes and then traverse left and right.....
Sounds like you need something a lot better than that. Also sounds as though you have the mechanical aptitude required to go the route of finding a used industrial machine of the slot Morticer description and then giving it a going over-could work out cheaper, especially if you have 3 phaseon hand. Then you can use the loose tongue method, and do mortises and holes fast and accurately.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there are specific mortising cutters made for the job-they are designed to only drill a set distance before one starts traversing. Can show a pic if you are interested.
I feel that mortising based on a router has too many restrictions-but that applies to my type of work.Philip Marcou
Matt, I've talked to several people over the months on the G0540 and most have had positive experiences with it as a mortiser. The Robland/Laguna X31 is the mortising table from the combo machine and it's running over $600 for the table alone.
Philip mentioned the Rojek. I know the machine well as I maintain one for a local school. It uses rods instead of dovetailed ways like the heavy commercial mortisers but I would have to compare it to the descriptions I've heard about the G0540 and the Grizzly sounds about equal in accuracy and construction of the two machines however $300 versus $1700 is quite q difference.
I remember talking to Grizzly about it in November of 2004 about 5 months before it was even available. They do say it can do basic mortising in their ad copy and I do believe it can be a good entry level slot mortiser. I do believe that Grizzly made a slot mortiser totally by accident and still don't understand the ramifications and importance of a slot mortiser. Many woodworkers don't really get what the slot mortiser can do to simplify things for them. For some reason the loose tenon is regarded as bad and they all want to use the machine to make the tenon as well. For $300 I would say it's worth a shot at trying it out. They do have a return policy.
As for pushing the tool beyond it's limits. I firmly believe most manufacturers really don't ever know the full capabilities of their equipment. I've been repairing, modifying and exploring tools for over 30 years and always find new things the manufacturer didn't envision their tool doing. For instance I've been doing a lot of non-ferrous metal cutting on the table saw. We used it as much as our bending and milling machine when I worked as a metalsmith. It was routine to rip down the leg of 1/4" x 3" x 3" brass angle stock or even a 2" x 2" solid brass stock. There isn't a tool that can't be modified to work better. One shouldn't be afraid to drill holes in a table or fence to make things work in a different way. Never seen a tool that was completely finished out of the box.
"Never seen a tool finished right out of the box"
Right on Brother RickL. Can I get an amen?
Same way with guns, especially the semi-auto handguns, but that's another forum somewhere else on this here Al Gore's cyberweb.
Any machine could use a little tweaking.
I have the Grizzly and while I have not used it exstensively, it's fit and finish were fine. I saw either here or somewhere else someone took the 3450 motor off and replaced with a router in a box setup. It would give you the desired speed. When I received mine and set it up, it was square out of the box without any adjusting. With the slower speed, I just have to be careful not to try to hog off a lot at one time. I've tried both the bore both ends and clear out the middle and the take small passes off at a time. I have not decided which is best, but either will work fine. I did some test cuts out of the box and they were fine. Not bad for what I paid for it.
Edited 8/24/2005 8:59 pm ET by bones
If I buy the tool, I don't think I'd be replacing the motor with a router. End mills are longer, cheaper and run better at lower rpms. Nice discussion. RickL has a passion for these things and I appreciate him talking about them.
I always like to hear Rick L's comments on tools and set-ups. I have not followed this thread very closely, and I am wondering if we are talking about a tool that has a three-jaw chuck, that is being used to cut horizontal mortises. I have not attempted that maneuver in about a zillion years, it didn't work back then. Are three-jaw chucks so much better now than they were then, and what do you think about the 2.5" or whatever they extend away from the bearings. I just can not see how this could work very effectively. If you look at a router, with a collet chuck, the but end of your router bit is normally about in line with the bottom bearing, and a long bit may be 2.5 - 3" out from there, and at that point, they start chattering from flexing of the cutter. If you throw a 3-jaw in there, you are extending another few inches over that.If you want something that will do nice clean mortises fast, you might like what I have got. the PM chain mortise will make a nice 1/2" X 2" X 4" deep in about a second, and the tenoner sure makes a good companion for it also.
Three jaw chucks are fine. A friend and I once made a slot mortiser from an old handmill (outdated milling machine picked for scrap metal pricing) and used a Jacobs chuck. Old metal working macines with "wear" still have tighter tolerances than a new woodworking machine.
I don't know about the Grizzly but my Laguna has a two jaw chuck with V-notches in each jaw. This isn't anything like a standard 3 jaw drill bit chuck. It will hold a wide variety of shanks very securely.
Steve, the Laguna that I once used was sold without the power unit. The buyer was to supply the router. It sounds like they are selling something like the Felder that I own now, with two v-notch jaws. They are very easy to change bits, accept a wide variety of shank sizes, up to 3/4", the rpms are not so hectic as a router. I wonder what the table is like. My old Laguna was spare. I'll take my camera to work tomorrow to show picutures of mine. It would be cool if you would do the same. Bill
Bill, the Laguna that I have is much like the Felder 250 and is in the same price range. It was a close call on which one to get as I have machines from both Felder and Laguna and love them all. I opted for the Laguna since Felder stopped offering the tilt head capability. Also, I got several things standard on the Laguna that were optional on the Felder for about the same price as the base Felder unit. The Felder has the edge on dust collection though which isn't even considered on the Laguna. I'll try and get some pictures this weekend.
Bill, attached are pictures of the Laguna mortiser. It wouldn't surprise me if the chuck wasn't the same as that of the Felder you have. The doweling attachment is pretty slick and has settings for 16, 22, 25, and 32mm centers. I have only had this about 4 months so I haven't used all the features yet but, it is pretty versatile.
Steve
Steve, when I was looking for an upgrade to my old Laguna, which was a much smaller unit than what you have and required the buyer to supply the power unit, I was disappointed to find that Felder had just stopped producing the tilt head. Although I haven't needed a tilt, many times the capability of a machine enters into the design process of a piece of furniture, especially when improvising. This machine has done OK, some chatter, especially at deeper cuts. As you can see the dust port is non functional. The flexhose that Felder sold me disintergrated in two years. But all together, it has been good having a tool to bore mortises with, although I can't really recommend the Felder. I didn't opt for the doweling attachment. Bill Lindau
Bill - The tilt head, doweling fixture, mobility kit, and 2 eccentric clamps for the same price as the basic Felder is what tilted my decision in favor of the Laguna. I haven't used the tilt feature yet since I have only had it a few months but, it is nice knowing it is there should I need it. I really like your extension tables which I don't believe are even available on the Laguna. Since I have a Felder combo, this would have been handy since I could move the tables to the appropriate machine when needed. I also like the guard that is over the chuck, as you can see from my pictures, totally exposed. I have read on the FOG that hose disintegration has been a problem on all Felder machines within the first two years. I suppose that soon I will need to replace them on my combo.
One feature that I believe every mortising machine lacks is the ability to tilt the table. This would really be nice for those projects that require mortising at other than right angles. I have made several hexagonal tables that requires a 30 degree tilt for the mortises so I will probably build some type of fixture to do so. Have you developed any special jigs for your Felder?
It looks like you may just be using end mill bits. I haven't tried these yet but have tried the standard straight bits and the spiral mortising bits from Laguna. They work good but I really think they are too long (4-6") and have resulted in chatter when I get overly agressive. Most of the mortising I do is only about 1" deep so having a bit that will cut a mortise 4" deep is overkill. Have you tried any of the Felder birdsmouth mortise bits?
Steve
Steve, When I have needed to mortise or bore at an angle, I've used a wedge cut at that angle to lift the stock away from 90 deg. The extension tables on either side are cast iron. The one in the front is aluminum. It moves between the mortiser and my KF700 saw shaper. I mount it on the slider when doing cross cuts. Felder has a good system, I think they call them F brackets, for mounting these extension tables. I liked them so well, I mounted one on my Agazzani bandsaw. It now has a Felder extension table permanently installed. Those are endmill bits, from Grainger, fairly inexpensive. I have a Felder birdsmouth bit that's still in the package from when I bought this machine several years ago. I'll get to it eventually. How do you like the Felder combo? Bill
Hey Bill, I forgot I had some Grizzly end mills and didn't even think to try them in the mortiser. I'll check it out since they are much shorter than the mortising bits I have. After looking at your pictures, I checked to see if my short crosscut table would fit the mortiser but alas, the mounting bar is too high. My combo is a CF741SP and it is a wonderful piece of machinery. I really like the 9.5' slider and now use the slider to rip. Occasionally, during some cross cutting operations, I have too much overhang to the right of the blade and if excessive, it will hit the jointer guard arm or cause me to remove the fence from the jointer. For these cases, I just trim slightly oversize so the overhang is minimal and it just causes an extra operation. In retrospect, I wish I had gone with separate saw/shaper and jointer/planer combos but I still would have opted for the Felder. I had considered just adding the mortising table to the combo but I didn't really like the idea of the moving table and preferred the moving power head. This was just a matter of personal preference. Steve
For those of you who are interested, I just started a new Knots thread about the possibility of a new horizontal routing machine.Here's the direct link:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=25352.1
Great straigh forward post AND good content.. Dang.. Hardly ever see that anymore! Especially from ME!
Steve,
You definitely describe the way I feel about tools as well. Even though I am a hobbyist, and a half-pro at times, that does not mean I expect less of my tools. I'm still spending money and time in the shop and have high expectations. And when I'm doing a major project on my own home, you can bet I want to be able to rely on those tools!
Edited 8/22/2005 8:48 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Steve,
Grizzly has a whole range of products. I'd have to say that the HBM is at the low end of the spectrum in terms of quality. If history is any indication, and if Grizzley decides this product is worth the effort, there is a real chance that they will increase the quality over time.
I have the 8" 0500 jointer and it is definately commercial quality - dead flat, keeps it's adjustments and happily runs for hours on end. Some of their other stuff is manufactured in ISO 9xxx factories which means they have devoted a lot to processes that generate consistent quality.
Regarding repeatability/accuracy of the HBM - I've got a bunch of door frames and frame & panel drawer fronts coming up and I'll report back on how it goes. Hopefully the overlay top I built, which lets me precisely/consistently orient each piece, will make the difference - it's worked well so far (10 frames/80 mortises). The biggest pieces I've worked so far are 2-1/2" x 36" and have had no deflection issues.
Wayne
Wayne - you are probably right about the low end of the spectrum. All three Grizzly machines that I have cost under $600 and are what I consider to fall into that category. As with anything, there is a performance to cost ratio and unfortunately, I have seen that ratio being significantly less than 1 on low cost machines. The saying that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is definitely applies to woodworking equipment. I look forward to your report on the machines performance.
Steve
is at the low end of the spectrum in terms of quality.. Maybe.. I have a old Brown an Sharp metal lathe and a Grizz that is a cose match... Grizze cuts closer BUT I have not worked on my B&S lately
chills,
I appreciate your hands-on assessment of the Grizzly horizontal boring machine. I want to add slot mortising as one option among many for doors and some frame-and-panel work in my shop, so I don't want to spent $1,000+ on a slot mortiser. That's why I was looking at the Grizzly. I get hired for a stream of woodworking projects -- it's a steady second source of income. As half-professional, I bring new tools into my shop based on the amount of money I earn. Of course, since I'm also half hobbyist, and do lots of work on my own home, I can sometimes buy machines that are slightly unjustified from an income/expenditure point of view! But the Grizzly fits comfortably into that hobbyist/half-professional zone.From the beginning, I assumed the Grizzly would not be up to the level of a Felder or a Rojek. My goal is to fully understand its limitations, so I can intelligently ask whether this machine does what I need it to do. I'm not talking about thousands of mortises here -- just occasionl use when slot mortising would be a proper option. However, when I do the mortising, I need it to be accurate! And who knows, maybe after I try this method it will become my favorite way to build doors. In which case, I would want a better machine.No way to know for sure up front. Such is the mystery of tool purchass.
Edited 8/21/2005 7:50 am ET by MatthewSchenker
I make my living at making cherry furniture. Years ago I got in the habit or groove of making my doors for my cabinetry using dowels. This was accomplished using a doweling jig. This past spring I decided to try to speed this process up somewhat and hopefully increase the accuracy of my joints by purchasing a horizontal boring machine. My budget only allowed the Grizzly $300.00 machine. My take is this: This machine is not adequate or accurate enough for slot mortising. It does however do well enough for boring holes in wood, especially for dowels. I draw pencil lines on the wood where the rail & stile marry up, and use a brad pointed drill bit to drill the hole in the vicinity of the line. No matter how careful I am, the pieces when dowelled together will be usually be 1/32 or sometimes 1/16 of an inch off. This is no big problem since I build my doors oversized, and usually have to size them to fit the cabinet anyway. I don't have mine setup with outriggers but I do see the need for them mainly when it comes to long pieces, because the table is not stable enough and the weight of the piece of wood usually causes the table to tilt a small amount to whichever side the excess wood overhangs, this causes one piece to be a little "prouder" than the other. One other point I noticed is using a standard length drill bit I seem to get some deflection when it is plunged in a full 1 inch and have to use earplugs because of the high pitch chatter. In the end I like it better than using a dowelling jig (dj) because of the speed, but it is no more accurate than the dj
Robert
Matthew, I owned the Laguna Horz. Boring machine in the past, supplied the router and had good results. Now I'm using a Felder, bigger table more clamp downs. It has its' own power unit, nice big chuck can open to accept 3/4" shanks. I use end mill bits, which are cheaper than router bits. I don't know the speed but it's considerably slower than a router which is fine for me, I never liked putting that sideways stress on a bit spinning at router speeds. I use it for all mortises and dowel drilling. I was visiting the Felder user's group several years ago and noticed that a number of them were moving to the MultiRouter. It's lighter weight but far more versatile. Bill
Bill,
I admire your work, so I'm sure your techniques are the right ones to follow!!It sounds like a horizontal boring machine would help do slot mortises, but not tenons. You say you own the Felder, but for someone who does smaller projects, would you say the Grizzly is good enough as a first venture into horizontal boring machines? Or is there something essentially different about the Felder?
Matthew, I only use the floating or sliding tenon, and glue them with thickened West System epoxy. The Laguna slot mortiser worked well for me and was reasonably priced. I'm not familiar with Grizzily, although I have considered buying the MultiRouter. The reason I haven't is because it's pricey and has too many bells and whistles. I do the best if the machines are uncomplicated. The thing I like about the Felder is the big table with the capacity for add on extension wings. But it probably cost more than it is worth. The Laguna is a good place to start. One thing that is great about the Felder is the chuck system, it beats mounting the cutter in a router collet and with a 3/4" shank capacity, I can cut 1" mortises using an end mill bit. Bill
Matthew - I have the Laguna LBM200 slot mortiser that runs at 3450 rpm. It has two eccentric clamps, doweling fixture and tilting head capability and is overall very versatile. I could cut shutters on this if needed. The speed is satisfactory for cutting mortises and doweling. It doesn't have dust collection nor does it have the ability to tilt the table which would be useful. I use the spiral mortising bits although have heard that the "birdsmouth" bits make a cleaner cut so I may try them in the future.
One consideration is whether you want a moving table or a moving head. I personally prefer the moving head.
I have the Grizzly machine and have been quite happy with it. I mortise both pieces to be joined and use loose tenons. Very simple and fast, I'd never go back. I use end mills which do great at that speed. Art
art,
Using loose tenons is something I am very interested in trying out. For some reason, I've had a mental block against them, but woodworkers with a lot more experience than I seem to consistently rate this technique very highly.Do you pin your loose tenons, or is this unnecessary? Lately, I always pin my mortise-and-tenon joints. I like the look, and it adds strength, though I always wonder if I need to do it, since I made lots of projects that have held up fine without them.
Using loose tenons over twenty years and never pinned them. For the most part I don't even bother rounding the tenon stock. At the most I might chamfer quickly on the table saw. On through tenons I would round the tenon. I've done through tenons that were square on the visible part but the hidden part was my standard chamfer treatment.
I prefer the slower speed slot mortiser over a router as I do metal work as well and it allows me to mill non-ferrous metal. Plus having a horizontal drill is a plus.
Edited 8/19/2005 2:53 pm ET by RickL
I've never pinned the joints. It's easy to get a good fit since I prepare the tenon stock using my thickness planer. I keep a supply on hand. I haven't had a joint failure yet. Art
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=24034.1
Just my option..
EDIT:: Just my option..
I was always right till I was married and SHE was right and her three daughters Backed her up!
Edited 8/21/2005 11:43 am ET by WillGeorge
I've been wanting a Shop Smith just to experiment with for these porposes. But the used ones usually seel for more than I am willing to pay.
Mike
"I've been wanting a Shop Smith just to experiment with for these porposes. But the used ones usually seel for more than I am willing to pay. "
Mike - I had a ShopSmith 500 for 23 years and used it as a horizontal boring machine. It worked fairly well as a horizontal boring machine as long as you don't apply too much force. With the model 500 the table posts just flexed too much. This "feature" made the SS basically un-usable as a mortising machine - never could get it to work satisfactorily in that regard. Several years after my purchase, SS offered an upgraded table system but I was unwilling to put that much more money into the SS so I don't really know if it solved the problem. I ended up selling mine 2 years ago for $650 and that seems to be close to the going rate depending on condition. That is kind of steep for an experiment.
After lurking here reading the responses to your post, I'd recommend making a jig for a router to do slot mortises. I can't recall which trade show I went to, or whom was demonstrating it, but he had two jigs- one that used a plunge router for slot mortising and one that was a modified trim router to do the tennons.
Quick easy setup, easy to adjust, and both setups complemented each other providng a quick, easy M&T joint in any thickness of wood, by changing the size of the spiral router bit.
Outside of the routers, I would estimate there to be only about $30 worth of hardware and scrap wood for the jigs.
This has to be the best setup I have seen for occasional slot mortising, even though he was a professional woodworker and did small production runs from what I recall.
One thing to consider is if you really want to have a machine sitting around, likely you will be working around it if you don't use it all of the time.
craig,
My question from the beginning of this thread was whether it's better to buy a machine like the Grizzly or build one with a router. I've seen some interesting plans in magazines and books, but they are always missing something like smooth table movement. I do want to find an interesting way to do slot mortises and tenoning in my shop. I'm not sure which way is better here.I'd be very interested in seeing any links or photos to the setup you mentioned.MLCS is touting a new horizontal router table. They are claiming it has good vertical height adjustment for the router, but of course the table stays put. Here's the link for those who are interested:
a href=http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/horiztabl.html target=_blankhttp://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/horiztabl.html/a
One of the magazines had a table that slid using ball bearing drawer slides, but I'm not so positive about the accuracy of the table with the play in most glides, since they are typically designed for vertical load, not lateral load.
The setup I saw didn't have a sliding table, it clamped the wood and the plunge router moved.
The tennoning jig, the trim router wasw horizontal and you adjusted the height of the bit for the tennon width.
Hope this helps
Craig
Thanks for the info!! I have a source related Horizontal Boring Machine. If you wanna some help then go for it's manual guide. I hope you will get some ideas related your query.
Thanks!!
For Info: https://jpmachinestools.tumblr.com/post/161849986602/horizontal-boring-machine
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