Replies

1. 
   adrienne4468 | May 26, 2004 04:10pm | #1

   One other thing, can someone tell me the difference between the Shop Fox Classic fence and the Shop Fox Aluma-classic fence. They are put in the Grizzly cabinet saw and the contractor's saw respectively.

   Tony

   We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
1. 
   forestgirl | May 26, 2004 08:04pm | #6

   I've been pondering those two fences too.  I think they are fundamentally the same fence.  The AlumaClassic is lighter weight and  has slots for fence-mounted accessories, but it looks to me like the actual design is the same.  The advantage, in my mind, of the original SF Classic is the weight and the fact that the HDPE faces are replaceable. 

   Aluminum fences can get dinged up and are not easily repairable when they do.      forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   jackplane | May 26, 2004 04:44pm | #2

   If you're serious about woodworking or want to be,leave all power tool desires aside except for a high quality tablesaw and a good router. The Bosch you mentioned is an excellent choice. As for a tablesaw, some here will extol the virtues of Chinese made saws, but I prefer Powermatic or an American made Delta for quality through and through.A router and tablesaw are the two most important power tools; the rest of your collection can expand around them.

     The Craftsman ras is a solid tool, especially older ones, and is an exception to Sears otherwise mediocre power tool line. I also think it's important to be able to cut joints first by hand so that you know what it is you're asking  your power tools to do.

   Good luck!

1. 
   adrienne4468 | May 26, 2004 05:10pm | #3

   The reason for the mortising machine is that I am going to build all my furniture in my house in mission style. I have already made the morris chair and am working on an ottoman. The dining room table and chairs have 3 1/2 gazillion mortise and tenon joints ( I counted them and this seems to be accurate). I have been a machinist for over 20 years so I know how to get the most out of a machine. The Bosch seemed to rate the best in AWW and it has the HP for large bits occasionally. My main concern is the cost of the saw and what I need it for. There is a balance and I would like to hit it right this time. It took 10 years and 4 kids later to get the money and I would like to get the most for it without overspending.

   Thanks

   Tony

   We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.

3. 
   notDusty | May 26, 2004 05:20pm | #4

                tony ,

       Without knowing what type of work you have been , and want to be doing it is hard to say what you need . If you feel you will be a ww for a long time to come , then by all means buy the best you can afford , not just the most you can get for your money . Try looking for a used ts , Unisaw or Powermatic , they generally sell for $750 - $1000 . IMHO spend more on a ts and wait on the mortiser . A router can be used instead in most cases to create the mortises .Remember it is not what you have , but what you know that is more important .Not to knock the spin offs but , I have seen many old Deltas and Powermatics 30 - 40 years old and still in service as good as new in most cases. I seriously doubt that the same will be true for the imitations . In fact several shops that I know of have worn out and replaced them with the real thing . What is also true is in a home shop part time environment these spin offs may serve well for many years .Auctions , estate sales , look in the yellow pages under used tools or equipment .

                                good luck                     dusty

1. 
   Tao | May 27, 2004 02:22am | #9

   Try looking for a used ts , Unisaw or Powermatic , they generally sell for $750 - $1000 . IMHO spend more on a ts and wait on the mortiser

   I concur.  I bought all my major tools used at half the cost of new or less, for example:

   1980's Powermatic 66 table saw: $1000

   Powermatic 45 lathe: $350

   Delta 20" bandsaw: $800

   Delta combination sander 31-730 (the good one) $700

   Delta "HD" shaper $600

   6" long-bed jointer $350

   All these machines are in excellent condition, American made, and function as well or better than new ones.  I saved thousands of dollars over going out and buying new, and I have top quality equipment that will last longer than me.

   As far as a mortising machine goes, I personally wouldn't buy one unless I were chopping a lot of mortises, say more than a hundred a month.  Even then, I'd hold out for an industrial grade machine, even if it were 50 years old or more.  Most af the consumer grade ones I have seen just don't do a very good job.

   It takes patience; I'm continually on the lookout for sensible upgrades, and I keep a stash of money set aside for when I encounter a good buy, but it pays off.

   Michael R.

1. 
   notDusty | May 27, 2004 02:43am | #10

                  Woodwiz ,

        I think a new Jet or Grizzly with a decent fence is more than $800 dollars , so why not have the real thing. After much thought , if a person does not need a heavy cabinet saw then maybe a contractor type saw will suffice for them . I also purchased my machines over a long period of time mostly one at a time . They were old when I bought them , but they all still work fine , it's the user that is getting worn out . By keeping a stash of money available you can be spontaneous , "the time to buy a deal is when you see it" if you snooze you looze . Actually it seems as though it is hard to find what you need , when you need it , sometimes .

                                 dusty

1. 
   Tao | May 27, 2004 04:36am | #11

   Actually it seems as though it is hard to find what you need , when you need it , sometimes .

   Since I do this for a living, when I NEED a tool to do a job, I buy the best deal available at the time.  For example, I did fine with an oldish Delta 14" bandsaw for several years before I ran into a deal on its big brother (about 600 lbs worth.) I am always looking for upgrades, though -- right now, I would love to find a hot deal on a bigger joionter - 12"or better.  I might find it tomorrow, or I might find it in a year.  In the mean time, my long bed 6" is a pretty good tool.

   For the same money, I would much rather have a good, used, production grade tool rather than a brand new consumer grade machine -- anytime.  I buy well enough that it is usually no trouble getting my money back out of the tools I sell when  I upgrade. 

   The only drawback I can think of is if you don't know enough about machinery.  The good stuff can cost a lot to repair if you buy a lemon, and the new stuff at least comes with a warranty.

   Michael R

4. 
   jazzdogg | May 26, 2004 07:39pm | #5

   Tony,

   A buddy of mine just bought a Fisch benchtop hollow chisel mortiser and loves it - much better than the Jet & Delta benchtop units, but a distant second to the massive Powermatic floor model. He got his through http://www.allprotools.com

   Good luck,

   Paul

   -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

5. 
   jackplane | May 26, 2004 09:23pm | #7

   As a machinist, you know that a mortiser is a dedicated tool for a specific job, and if you're  making 3 gazillion m and t joints, by all means  buy one.It makes good sense with the job you have in mind. I can't recommend a specific one but jazzdogg's recommendation sounds right.

6. 
   Napie | May 26, 2004 10:48pm | #8

   In Michigan try "Hollywood Equipment" used tools in Holly MI 248-634-6234.  They have a great selection of used Delta, PM, Boice Crane, etc. 

7. 
   301 | May 27, 2004 08:33am | #12

   Tony, I too was a machinist in another life and from the description of the work you want to do I cannot see why you need a big, expensive table saw.  Unless you are going to cut up acres of sheet goods there is just no need to get one of those monsters.  They eat up your money and your floor space, my big Delta went out the door over a year ago and I haven't missed it for a minute.  Save some money and get a "nice" smaller saw, you will likely only be using it to rip boards occasionally anyway.  Smaller saws can be as powerful and as accurate as the big ones, just shop carefully.

8. 
   mudman | May 27, 2004 10:07am | #13

   Tony,

   Big saws are not just for cutting Big stuff. They turn dados, hold adjustments, collect dust, cut smoother (due to the heavy trunions), and have longer, more accurate fences. Look for an old Unisaw or Power Matic. Use Ebay and be willing to drive for a day (a long day) to get it. I live in Texas but was looking as far away as Kansas if the price was right. Remember those poor souls in Wyoming don't have anyone to sell their stuff too.

   I have the Bosch router set you want and like it though I have found a few anoying issues that the new PC set does not suffer from. Though I like Bosch a lot, cool Blue colour.

   Mortisers rock big time, makes it almost too easy. Don't get a bottom of the line model. They are horible to set up. I have the Delta model that goes for $230, it has rack and pinion fence adjustment and a cast iron table. After tuning up the chisels it makes mortises almost as smooth as a router.

   Mike

1. 
   adrienne4468 | May 27, 2004 04:00pm | #14

   I very much agree with the last two posts. This is my delima. I will be cutting alot of wood although it will not be sheet stock. Before I left my last job I built a sawmill that works with a chainsaw sort of like the Logosol mill. I will have a lot of rough lumber to saw and square up and will use this to make any panels that I may need for projects. Making everything out of solid wood apeals to me especially if it is free. I have about 200 bf of 5/4 cherry drying right now and have a few other logs to cut up all of it free. I only have a 24 x 24 garage and would like to leave as much room for working and benches as possible. Some of the room is already taken up with a 200 bf kiln I had to build in and I am getting rid of the RAS to improve conditions. Are the contractor saws powerful enough to cut rip 8/4 stock. I think I would rather have one of these for space and weight concerns because I will have to move it occasionally to make room to work on my cars. (I can't affort a mechanic) but I don't want a machine that will not have enough power to cut the occasional 8/4 for a tabletop or other project that I may have.

   Any thoughts?

   Tony

   We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.

1. 
   forestgirl | May 27, 2004 06:37pm | #15

   Tony, with the kind of work you're talking about, you'll be wanting a good-sized motor on that saw.  I have to run out for an appointment, so can't throw a bunch of links and quotes at you, but consider the following:  A cabinet saw may not take all that much more space when you consider the motor is under the saw, inside the cabinet, rather than sticking out the back.  Also, looka t the Grizzly 1023.  It doesn't have the super-long rails that saws like the Unisaw have.  A mobile base takes care of the portability problem.

   The Grizzly contractor's saw (the new one) comes in two versions, with the more expensive one having cast-iron wings and a 2HP motor.

   Gotta go.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   Edited 5/29/2004 11:58 am ET by forestgirl

2. 
   mudman | May 28, 2004 08:42am | #17

   Tony,

   I have used the best contractor saws on the market, including a 2 horse, and I can tell you that cutting lumber that thick will be frustrating. Your feed rate will be to slow to prevent burning even with easier woods, forget the really hard stuff. A good blade will help, but it is a shame to put a $100 blade on a 1.5 horse saw because it won't last long. When you push stock that thick into a saw like that the blade slows down a lot and you have to push harder which over heats the blade and kills blades faster. I was about to upgrade to a forrest blade on my craftsman when my very experienced uncle explaned that to me. I'm not trying to sell you a cabinet saw, but after your question about ripping 8/4 stock, I think you would be wanting more saw. As previously posted Cabinet saws are actually smaller than contractor saws, at least in the footprint, and the tables are the same size. Just don't get a monster 52" fence.

     I must say though that I use a bandsaw for anything that thick, and it wouldn't take much of a band saw to do it either. I think a bench model could do it. However you would then need a jointer to get a clean edge.

    Take your time deciding this stuff if you can and go look at others' shops that are like what you want and walk around in them. Posting on these forums is great too. Top notch work can be don an a small machine. I'd like to think I've made some pretty decient stuff on my old craftsman. But it was a lot harder. Now I don't even think twice when I lock down the fence I am confident that my Unisaw will do what I want.

   Mike

3. 
   RonInOttawa | May 29, 2004 06:43am | #18

   I have been using the same Craftsman table saw for 25 years. It has a 1 hp motor, and came with a crappy fence. I quickly built a mobile base, upgraded the fence a couple of times (currently use a Ridgid aftermarket fence) and learned how to tweak it to perfection. When ripping, I use a Systematic 24-tooth blade which does a good job on 8/4 stock if you don't rush it. That said, I have now switched to using a generic Taiwanese bandsaw (well adjusted with a link belt and the Timberwolf blade) to do most of my ripping for thicker stock. It's as fast if not faster than the table saw, and I no longer worry about turning my thumb into hamburger (again). I have a jointer, which helps smooth the edges of the cuts, although the Timberwolf blade does a great job if the tension is set according to the manufacturers instructions.

   The bottom line is that you CAN do heavy ripping on a contractor's saw, but there are other alternatives. A 3-hp cabinet saw is certainly a nice option, but there are other ways to skin the cat. I'm going to be upgrading my old Craftsman soon, and suspect that I will either purchase the General 250 or the new Delta 3 6-655. Both will be an improvement over my current saw with respect to weight and accuracy, and the General is readily available here in Ottawa delivered to my door and hoisted into my shop for no extra charge. I will not be doing this in order to be able to rip thicker hardwoods...I will be doing it for such things as improved dust collection, the ability to adjust the saw and expect it to stay adjusted and the smile I will get when one of my buddies looks at the shop and says "Now that's a saw!"

   Regards,

   Ron

   
4. 
   nikkiwood | May 29, 2004 08:05am | #19

   I'm part of the "cabinet saw crowd."

   I think Mike summed it up very well. The kind of work you describe is exactly what a 3 hp cabinet saw was designed for. Can you do this sort of cutting on a contractor's saw -- absolutely, but it will require a lot of slogging, and you may not be satisified with the result.

   However, if for space reasons, you want to stay with a contractor saw, I would most certainly check out the Grizzly model (with the 3hp motor) Forrest Girl mentioned a couple of posts back. If you are just using it for lumber, you could get along without the big extension table, which would reduce the footprint size.

   However, I would wonder if such a big motor would accentuate the vibration you typically get with a contractor's saw (at least when compared to the more massive structure of most cabinet saws).

1. 
   forestgirl | May 29, 2004 06:57pm | #20

   Ooooops, I mis-spoke.  The 1044Z has a 2HP motor, not 3.  Pre-wired to 220V.  I would definitely use a link-belt to help reduce vibration.  Love it on my Jet saw.

   I think the space used might be very similar between the two saws.  Here they are:

   View ImageView Image

   The contractor saw actually has more cutting capacity to the right of the blade, which seems to me to mean the saw is probably wider when measured to the end of the rails than the cabinet saw is.  The 1023S table measures 36-1/4" x 27-1/8", and it has short rails. No mx given on the contractor saw, I'll try to find them or measure my Jet. 

   Then there's always the "motor hanging out the back" problem with the contractor saw that garage owners always complain about!  Not something that bothers me, 'cause our garage doesn't ever hold cars.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   Edited 5/29/2004 12:16 pm ET by forestgirl

1. 
   jazzdogg | May 30, 2004 12:48am | #21

   " our garage doesn't ever hold cars"

   FG,

   It appears married life agrees with you: "OUR GARAGE," indeed!

   I'm happy for you,-Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

2. 
   forestgirl | May 30, 2004 01:20am | #22

   Tee hee hee hee!  Well, I do allow 3 transmissions and an engine to live underneath one of the counters!  Sheesh, whadya expect?!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

5. 
   mike4244 | May 31, 2004 09:17pm | #23

   Now that I know what type of woodworking you are doing I would definitely buy a cabinet saw. Grizzly has excellent saws for a reasonable price. Other posts mention Powermatic, jet etc, all good choices. If you can buy a used one in good condition fine, if not check the new saws, grizzly is my personal choice. I have used Powermatic and delta unisaws mostly, a few hours on a Jet and only 2 or three hours on a general.All of them will do the job. Be wary of any used  machine from a production shop, these saws made need bearings etc. Not a problem if you know beforehand and get the saw at the right price. Get the cabinet saw first, a contactor saw will bog down with the boards that you plan to rip.As far as taking up room, contractor saws take up more room than a cabinet saw. The motors stick out the back, the table and wings are generally the same size for either type saw.

   mike

1. 
   adrienne4468 | Jun 01, 2004 03:57pm | #24

   Thanks for all of your opinions! I called Grizzly over the weekend and went and saw the contractors saw at one of their happy customers house and I think I have decided on that. The money is also an issue it seems to me that this saw will do what I need it to. I will only need it for a little while because I plan on winning the DIY networks contest to win the $50,000 dollar dream shop and I already have the machinery picked out for that.

   Thanks Again,

   Tony

   We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 01, 2004 05:27pm | #25

   You go, guy!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

9. 
   301 | May 28, 2004 07:45am | #16

   It seems like the "Cabinet Saw Crowd" has a certain level of expectations that they feel can only be met by a big-old Grizzly cabinet saw.  I hate to break it to them but other saws can be as good (and in some cases better) and not be a cabinet saw.  I been-there and done-that and can tell you that the new breed of power tools are a lot better then tools of old.  Competition for the wood-worker's dollar is fierce therefore manufacturers are scrambling to make very good tools at very good prices.

   I remember the last metal-working lathe my shop bought.  Against all advice to buy a used South-Bend or similar we bought a brand new machine made in Poland.  The machine cut and worked like a dream right off the pallet and was a much more attractive price.  The one time we needed service the company sent (by airplane) a mechanic (tool box and greasy coveralls included-he spoke no English) all the way from Poland with a new part in hand.  No regrets on that purchase and I feel that the analogy applies here. 

   Don't get the impression that only big $$$ will buy quality tools, shop carefully and think outside-the-box.