Replies

1. 
   Lataxe | Aug 28, 2006 05:46pm | #1

   Mr Fisch

   Best for what?

   Happily, the latest issue of FWW has just the article for you - all about plane blade angles and their uses.

   Lataxe

1. 
   joinerswork | Aug 28, 2006 08:43pm | #2

   Lataxe,

   Was it Jerry Lee Lewis who said, "Baby, if you got the curves, I got all the angles!"?

   Ray

2. 
   Midnight | Aug 28, 2006 10:09pm | #3

   25 & 30 deg

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

3. 
   EdHarrison | Aug 29, 2006 03:01am | #4

   The old sources, such as, for example, Audel's, a ubiquitous builder's and carpenter's reference in the USA in the first half of the last century, would say that the length of the bevel needs to be twice the thickness of the iron.  That works out to something in the neighborhood of 30 degrees, but I'd have to get the well-known scholar Lataxe to check my Euclidean Geometry references.  Then the secondary bevel is just lifted up a few degrees, and held steady while honing.

   All these honing guides that measure out the exact bevel angles are just a crutch for the weak-minded!

   Good luck, Ed, who says the above tongue-in-cheek and is weary of passionate arguments about handtools - use whatever works well for you.  Take care.

    

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/28/2006 8:02 pm by EdHarrison

1. 
   wilburpan | Aug 29, 2006 02:17pm | #7

   If the length of the bevel is twice the thickness, then 30 degrees is correct.For a right triangle, the sine of an angle is the length of the opposite side divided by the hypotenuse. For this setup, you need to take the inverse sine of the thickness divided by bevel length, which is 0.5, which equals 30 degrees on the nose.

1. 
   EdHarrison | Aug 29, 2006 05:08pm | #8

   >...right triangle, the sine of an angle is the length of the opposite side divided by the hypotenuse. For this setup, you need to take the inverse sine of the thickness divided by bevel length, which is 0.5, which equals 30 degrees ...<

   Exactly.  What he said.

   Another potential reason that a person could have for honing at a higher intitial bevel angle like 30 degrees, is that it is a little easier to freehand hone.  The iron is more vertical and its easier to "lock in" and register the bevel on the face of the stone.  That's my theory, anyway, and I'm sticking to it. 

   I'll give you an example - I have a Sweetheart era Bailey 5 1/2 that I use all the time in my shop.  The iron is a "Hickory" that is 2 1/4 inches wide.  (The old style 5 1/2s used irons that width, vice 2 3/8).  "Hickory" is a long defuct company that made mostly transitional planes - you can occasionally see them on ebay.  The iron came with a 30 degree bevel angle and just works particularly good there.  It gets sharp- enough to shave hair every time and it works particularly well.  With that plane iron, I hone the entire bevel and it is farily easy to hold it on the oilstone at the 30 degree angle.  The plane/ iron combo will plane anything I can throw at it, including maple jarrah or hickory, and sharpening it has become predictable and easy.

   So I guess the moral of all that is that if something works, just go with it.

    

1. 
   user-162978 | Sep 04, 2006 09:33am | #9

   I like to polish the tip at 35 degrees on a 45 degree pitch bench plane, and my coarse honing is done at 33 degrees.

   This slightly increases the strength of the edge without losing too much clearance angle, (under the bevel).

   I have a sense that this slightly prolongs using time, but probably cannot prove it!  Certainly works for me....

1. 
   BG | Sep 04, 2006 12:44pm | #10

   David Charlesworth,
   But with the back bevel...perhaps the overall angle is 33 degrees?

2. 
   derekcohen | Sep 04, 2006 03:06pm | #11

   BG

   A backbevel on a Bevel down blade would increase the cutting angle, not reduce it. DC's "ruler trick" backbevelk will add about 1 degree to the overall cutting angle.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

3. 
   BG | Sep 04, 2006 04:14pm | #12

   derek,
   Okay, I don't see that...it increases the angle (ie. makes it more acute) but also reduces the number...eg. 35 to 33 degree. Help me see where I'm wrong?

4. 
   derekcohen | Sep 04, 2006 04:34pm | #13

   Hi BG

   DC stated, "I like to polish the tip at 35 degrees on a 45 degree pitch bench plane, and my coarse honing is done at 33 degrees". What he is saying is he honed the primary bevel at 33 degrees, then added a 2 degree microbevel, ending with a final bevel of 35 degrees. None of this affects the cutting angle on a bevel down plane, which is taken from the 45 degrees bed for the average Stanley plane. However, by adding a 1 degree micro-backbevel, the cutting angle increases to 46 degrees.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

5. 
   psmfisch | Sep 04, 2006 05:40pm | #14

   Does ruler trick (to get a 1 degree back bevel) cause an unlevel area on the stone.  how thick is the ruler?

   loved your aricle on revitalising old planes

   ocassionally re-read it

6. 
   rarebear | Sep 09, 2006 08:47pm | #17

   I am pretty sure Davids ruler is .015 or 1/64"

   And I am guess you get less than 1/2*

   The sine of 1* is .017 so if you use a .015 ruler and the blade stick out 1" only you get 1* but I guess it is sticking out about 2" at least so your around  1/2*

   The .017 = 1* is good to remember..

   If you meause a angle at 6" you just x it by .017

   Or if you have .028 under 1" lenght its 2*

   Or .056 under 2" it is 2*

   .112 under 4" is 2*

7. 
   BG | Sep 04, 2006 08:44pm | #15

   derek,
   As soon as I looked at it upside down it became clear...you guys have such an advantage ...lol

8. 
   user-162978 | Sep 08, 2006 11:04am | #16

   My ruler is a narrow 6 inch and its thickness is half a millimetre.

   This puts a microbevel on the flat side or back. 

    0.66 or 2/3 of a degree is what I calculate for an 8000 grit waterstone!

   So overall angle at tip is now 35.666 degrees.

   The point I was trying to get across is that 35 degree honing in a standard angle, 45 degree pitch plane works well for me, in hardwood.

   best wishes

   David  going on holiday today for one week to Scilly Isles, hooray, having finishes shooting dvd6 yesterday, here in Hartland.  (Bailey plane tuning).

4. 
   philip | Aug 29, 2006 10:16am | #5

   Which plane is this to fit? Otherwise the stock answer is "grind at 25 degrees and hone at 30 degrees".

   Philip Marcou
1. 
   psmfisch | Aug 29, 2006 01:55pm | #6

   No 6 stanley

5. 
   gb93433 | Sep 10, 2006 08:27am | #18

   The first thing I do is to flatten the back of the plane iron. After that I hollow grind the bevel and then hone the iron by resting the front and back of the hollowed out area on the stone and hone it using each stone alternating between the back and bevel. Sharpening typically is done in less than 30 seconds once the hollow grind is created.

1. 
   psmfisch | Sep 10, 2006 12:40pm | #19

   30 seconds, wow.  I would love to see you at work!

   I guess the hollow grind allows it as there is less friction

1. 
   BG | Sep 10, 2006 01:31pm | #20

   psmfisch,
   If you follow David Charlesworth methods it hard to spend more than 30 seconds re-honing a plane blade. I don't use a hollow grind but I do put a micro bevel on at 30 degrees and a back bevel using the ruler trick. Four or five pull strokes at 30 degrees and your done. The back bevel is about 10 seconds. I'm using the Shapton #5000 which requires no water..and the Vertitas II which provides high repeatability at the correct angle.
   One of the key things that David taught me was how to set the blade back in the plane and set it up for cutting feathers...life is good now

2. 
   gb93433 | Sep 10, 2006 04:11pm | #21

   When you hollow grind out the center section of the bevel it reduces the amount of steel to be removed. It saves your stones and greatly speeds the honing process. Usually I have to take only a few strokes to get the plane iron sharp. When the center section of the bevel is removed the plane iron rests on the stone without any rocking. So you can hone the stone at the same angle all the time on each stone.I failed to mention that I never use the grinder on the end of the plane iron. It is simply used to remove the bulk of the material in the center section of the bevel.

   Edited 9/10/2006 9:15 am by gb93433

1. 
   psmfisch | Sep 11, 2006 12:58am | #22

   this really does sound like a faultless technique

   it,is fast, if the grind angle is right and produces even reslts you actually have your own inbuilt honing guide to rest on the stone!