Howdy all!!
First, as a newcomer let me say how much I am enjoying this forum. I sure appreciate all you guys and gals out there with massive amounts of accumulated experience and the willingness to share same.
To the point- Has anyone knowledge with the joinery techniques used by our pals on the Pacific rim? I mean specifically the fancy furniture joints used in Japan and China. Of course I could buy the book “Japanese Temple Joinery” But I was wondering if such joints are practical, machine friendly. and applicable to domestic woods. Chime in ;+)
sawick
Replies
Sawick
Maybe only enough knowledge to get into trouble.
Building a temple is a little different than building furniture.There are some real interesting joints in the temples.
However, I haven't run into many joints in furniture here in Japan that are all that different than what you might dig up in Joyce's book. What kind of joints did you have in mind?
Scott
Try this site... http://www.nt.sakura.ne.jp/~garakuta/wood/english/tsugi/joinery.htm
If you need VRML (To view 3d), go here... http://ca.com/cosmo/ If you use IE, click on the worldview plug-in.
I must warn you that it may be sacrilegious to cut traditional Japanese joints using power tools. Get some good Japanese hand tools, and don't look back. http://www.japanesetools.com
Take Care,
Donald in Okinawa
Joe,
Thanks for that link. The joints are fascinating. I don't know which I like more, the joints or the graphics depicting them.
Of course, many of the joints are well-known in the West, but many of them display a flair and virtuosity far beyond the simple mechanical needs of the joint itself.
Many of the joints prepare long grain to long grain surfaces for what appears obviously to be a glue joint, because the joint would have no other mechancial strength. But many of the joints have locking keys and pins. Were they designed to be used without glue?
I assume that these are traditionally cut in fir or other softwoods?
R
Structural joints in architecture were done mostly without glue, and yes, the structural parts are mostly made from cryptomeria (sugi) and false cypress (hinoki). The oldest standing building in the world is the Ho^ryu^ji in Nara, (ca. 7th century), and it's mostly hinoki. Check out the following link: http://www.jinjapan.org/trends00/honbun/tj010330.html". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Back to the book thing...
Yeung Chan has a new book about cutting traditional joints with power tools. I haven't seen it yet, but i would guess he includes some of these more contotionist types, seeing as chinese furniture is a passion of his. certainly worth checking out.
thanks for the cool links...
Thanks Norm.
R
Norm, we gotta' stop runnin' into each other like this! Thanks for the link, it went straight into the favorites. For everyone else, I'm glad you enjoyed the joinery page, I got it from the http://www.japanesetools.com forum. Feel free to stop by and just jump right in. There's a pretty friendly crowd there.
I know you are aware of this, Norm, but for others...let me clarify the name thing:
My Christian name is Donald. Joe Zuki is a handle I use to display my bias toward Japanese tools...ref: Dozuki...Joe Zuki...get it?
Take Care, Everyone, and get yourself a Dozuki!!! You'll be amazed. For utter bewilderment, try a Tasai chisel...I like the usu-nomi. I'm not kiddin'.
Donald (in Okinawa)
Hi Donald,
I’ve been using a Dozuki and a Ryoba for the past ten years and wouldn’t go back to western saws for anything. BTW what part of Okinawa are you located in, I was there many years ago while in the Marines.
Regards
RickL
Rick,
Sorry for the late reply. I live in Chatan-Cho, on the sea-wall, just outside Kadena Air Base's gate 1. I've been here about a year. I figured Norm would jump in with a reply, as he was stationed here many years ago, attached to a marine unit. You out there, Norm?
If you are interested in any photos or memorabilia, just let me know and I'll hook you up.
Take Care,
Donald
lendawg1@vision1mm(dot)com
Donald,
Thanks for the offer. I was station in the northern part of the island and visited the airbase often, I’m familiar with the area I and wouldn’t mind going back.
Regards,
RickL
Edited 12/4/2002 9:36:38 AM ET by RickL
Rick,
If you feel like jumpin on a jet, or taking a space-A flight, just come on over and we'll put you up.
I've only been as far north as Nago, and it's real nice up there. Camp Schwab is up there somewhere, but I haven't been there.
Take it Easy,
Donald
Hi Donald,
I spent about six months in Camp Schwab, nice quiet little base right on the ocean. I had a great view from my barracks and it was only a hundred yards from the beach. I used to go snorkeling and fishing all the time. Later I was shipped to Fuji and then to Korea. I’ve attached a couple of pictures I found while reminiscing. BTW I might just take you up on your offer one of these days.
Thanks again and stay well,
RickL
"...only a hundred yards from the beach."
Then again, just about everyplace on Okinawa is only a hundred yards from the beach ^o^.
Your photos got me to thinking, though; I've got a whole suitcase full of slides taken '71-'73, and I'm going to have to get them out and sort them while I still have the memories intact.
Norm@Hold_Me_Closer_Tiny_Dancer_. . .". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Hey Norm,
“Then again, just about everyplace on Okinawa is only a hundred yards from the beach ^o^.” Your right the island is only 200yrds wide. My photos are from 79 thru 83 at least the ones I can find; I’ve seemed to misplace my primary photo album now for about three years. I’ll probably find the darn thing when I move out of the house in a couple of years, isn’t that the way things work you can’t find them when your looking.
"Norm@Hold_Me_Closer_Tiny_Dancer_. . .” I just had flash backs of a couple of bars I used to frequent outside Camp Hansen I think?? When I was young and intoxicated.
Take care,
RickL
Donald (in Okinawa),
OK, please do tell, what you mean by " For utter bewilderment, try a Tasai chisel...I like the usu-nomi. I'm not kiddin'." I'm assuming it is positive, yes? ... but how are use using it? does it hold its edge longer? cut better?
Thanks, Edward
Ed,
Definitely positive! Reading it again, I don't think bewilderment is the word I was looking for there. Perhaps amazement would be better. I have a lot of Japanese chisels, and only recently shelled out the required $$ for a Tasai. I chose the ultra-thin usu-nomi, as it was something I needed for getting into tight spaces. Also, you don't usually see these in less expensive lines of chisels.
I thought it would be a joy to use...I thought it would be sharp right out of the packaging...I was not prepared for how well it slices through wood. I peeled see-through slices off of endgrain with very little effort. I have a couple of "good" chisels that slice pretty well, but this was amazing! I am afraid to sharpen it now, although it doesn't seem to need it yet. I use it mainly for fitting dovetail joints, which it does very well.
Take Care,
Donald
Joe (or is it Don?),
Thanks for the link also!!. The notion of cutting locking joints is structurally sound of course. I will experiment with some of these pictures in your link as I do have a number of Japanese tools including a ryoba and a set of oichi. These joints would look good perhaps exposed in some furniture designs. Problem is, I don't think I have the skills to layout and cut such intricacies by hand but sure would like to learn. That is why I asked if anyone has tried adapting similar joinery techniques with power tools.
Never would I want to be offensive to any Oriental master craftsman. Rather, I have long admired and deeply respected the culture.
sawick
Edited 11/24/2002 2:38:23 PM ET by sawick
That's a great link, Don. Thanks!
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
sawick
I don't know if the Japanese use the same joints in furniture as they do structures, as one poster pointed out. I dropped by one day years ago when they were building a high-end Japanese restaurant here in Atlanta ( Icabon's sp ). They had brought in an entire crew of Japanese carpenters to do it. That was a great way to spend the day off.
So great, I took a week of vacation and watched them from sun-up till sun-down. No power tools. Pull saws and about every 20 or 30 strokes they would touch up the sharpness of the saw. They produced the most beautiful and complicated joints I have ever seen. It was totally fascinating. I ask one carpenter about the sharpening so often. I'm sure he gave me a great answer, but I don't understand Japanese. He bowed when he finished his speech. That and the big grin we exchanged spoke for itself. Pride...
Every since that day, I sharpen often and take pride in the quality of my work. Thank you Mr. Japanese carpenter. Both have payed big dividends and your steak-house stands solid as evidence. When I go there, people ooh and aah over the open joints and ask how someone could do that. I just reply, "sharpen often, pull stroke and pride in craftsmanship".. Then comes the grin as I walk off. he.....
P.S. Thanks to the posters for the werb-site. Great..
sarge..jt
Sarge,
You lucky devil!! Isn't that a treat to watch other masters ply their crafts? The best luck I have had with such "free lessons" was by hanging out at a friend's furniture shop and offering to push a broom if he would just let me watch every now and then. I sort of hoped that my volunteer interest would develop into a job or apprenticeship but he was committed to remaining a one man shop. One time I drooled while he made a scratch beader then cut a #### and bead molding on yards and yards of rosewood. The air in the shop was filled with the perfume of the wood and as I swept up it was hard to dispose of all the shavings in the trash. So I took some home and made an air freshener type of bowl so as to remind myself of this form of 'aromatherapy'.
Back to your experience. Did the Japanese carpenters do all their work on the floor? I have read that workbenches (in our fashion) are not used in the orient. What else was unique about how they worked? Grin and tell me more oh please...
sawick
These guys were under contract by an American building contractor. They did a large part of the work on the floor. The contractor had brought in saw-horses, also. Some work was laid on top of lumber and done.
Unique about how they worked.. Ummhh.. When they would start work, they were total concentration. Sirens, horns and shouting did not break it. They may have, but I didn't even notice if they would stop to go to the bathroom. There was very little conversation between the carpenters. Each seemed to be able to look at anothers current activity and know what to do without need for conversation. Very interesting and educational. I only wished I were able to ask them questions. Probaly a good thing I couldn't. They might still be building that steak-house from all the questions I could have fielded. Ha..
A note. The contractor brought in hot-dogs, hamburgers, fries and onion rings from the Varsity (worlds largest drive-in fast food place adjacent Ga. Tech university, a classic in Atlanta). They didn't have any left over and quite a few smiles. I guess even if your traditional, in Atlanta do as the Alantans do. You just might like it..
Back to the shop, making a base for the 22-580 planer and making a larger scroll saw table.. Have a good un..
sarge..jt
You might find it interesting that most furniture that was made in the 18th and 19th Centuries in Europe and the Colonies derived from examples made in the Far East. Check out the change from the Jacobean period to the Queen Ann and Federal Styles of furniture. Joinery, design the whole 9 yards. Read up on the subject and you will learn alot. Happy Holidays.
. . . not to mention the influence of Japonism on impressionism, Arts and Crafts and Prairie style.
Sorry, Don, yes I'm here, just not able to jump in the fire everyday. Wish I could get back to Okinawa; you're right, I was at the Army hospital near Sukeran as Navy/Marine Liaison and an earlier year up at Camp Hansen in Kin-son. A loooong time ago in a universe far away . . .". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
I believe that Japanese influence goes way beyond most people's estimations. I haven't seen much reference to that in print. Perhaps I'm not reading the right things.
I read a post recently that really made me wonder about what I thought I knew about Japanese joinery. It indicated that Tansu carcase joints were traditionally secret mitered dovetails. This goes against what I believed about the dovetail joint. I thought it was developed in Europe. The only dovetail I have seen in traditional Japanese furniture is the "single-tailed" dovetail, usually in a half-lap configuration.
Any further insight out there?
Donald
Joe, of course the dovetail was invented in Europe. It was also invented in Japan, and in India, and in South America, etc.. It is documented to have been invented in Europe at leat twice. The Egyptians used it, and so did the Greeks and the Romans. The Egyptians used the reverse of the modern convention by making the pins bigger than the tails. The technique was pretty much lost to the northern Europeans during the Dark Ages except for usage by carpenters, etc., employed by such wealthy patrons as the Christian church, lords and kings, and the like.
No doubt the dovetail has been invented independently by thousands of joiners, carpenters, furniture makers, etc., over the millenia, and the skill lost again due to all sorts of reasons due to early death, sons leaving for economic riches elsewhere, economic disruption, and war.
This is why I find it interesting that people seem to keep reinventing the wheel. Someone suddenly finds a technique and it gets splashed all over woodworking magazines and forums as something new-- the sandpaper 'scary sharp' method of sharpening springs to mind-- when I first saw it in print, I just went, 'Oh that trick. Who'd bother writing a whole friggin' article about that old dodge?' I'd been using it for years to get me out of a hole when I'd left my stone at the workshop and I was working on site somewhere. I was shown it by an old fart that had learnt it from an old fart, that had learnt about it from another old fart, etc..
It's usually not new at all, and if there is any real system available for passing on ancient knowledge, such as something similar to the now largely antediluvian European guild system of training and apprenticeship, then the old tricks do get passed on from generation to generation. Maybe forums such as this will short-circuit the old system, and 'new' (perhaps ancient) knowledge will pass quickly from one user to the next without the need for 'inherited' learning. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
Sgian,
You make some very good points! I guess my thinking was a bit narrow. Perhaps I should spend more time practicing and less time trying to study the history of joinery, as it all just seems to be interwoven.
Thanks for your frank and insightful post.
Take Care,
Donald
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