Replies

1. 
   jackiechan | Nov 29, 2003 08:02am | #1

   Ed,

   To mount an oval door, a cleat must be created on the inside of the cabinet (on the side you would like the hinge to be).  This will give the appropriate surface area and cabinet reinforcement needed to install a hinge and door.  There are hinges specifically made for oval cabinets which have two curved leaves (which follow the curve of the cabinet and door) connected by a stout hinge.  Because of the geometry of an oval cabinet/door, only one hinge is used.

   See the enclosed graphic for details.

   If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 11/29/2003 12:05:17 AM ET by Jackie Chan

   
1. 
   edcross1 | Nov 29, 2003 12:35pm | #2

   Thank you very very much. I can now go ahead and start gathering the timber I need. I have just one small question, do you know where I could lay my hands on the hinges you mention. I am based in the UK.

   Once again many thanks for your time and knowledge.

   edcross1

1. 
   jackiechan | Dec 01, 2003 08:53am | #15

   Ed,

   Curve leaf H hinges are not readily available, but are easily fabricated from uncut, non-drilled, wide leaf solid brass H hinges.  Brass cuts very easily, and can be worked with a basic thin blade metal cutting saw, mill files, and sharp twist drill bits.  This is the method I use when creating custom shaped hinges.  The key is to take precise measurements of the cabinet, and use these to guide the layout of the hinges.  Make a paper template of the shape and screw hole locations so that everything can be laid out before cutting begins.  Also, choose and purchase the screws you'll be using before any work begins.  You will need to drill the correct size holes and chamfers according to the screws you've got.  Caution!  Even though brass is easily cut, the shavings and filings are very sharp!  Take care to handle them with gloves.  Sweeping them off of a bench with the back of a bare hand can leave you with a nasty surprise!

   Before you cut the hinge to shape, drill the holes first.  This will give you more material to hold/clamp on to.  If the leaves of your hinge meet flush when they are together, close the hinge and drill through both sides simultaneously - thus guaranteeing mirror image screw holes on each leaf.  Be sure to counter sink each hole so that the screw sits flush with the surface of the hinge (don't over sink).

   I would recommend checking with the suppliers that Richard (Sqian Dubh) listed in his post.  You should definitely find what you're looking for with one of them. 

   One last thing to remember, if you use brass screws in the hinges, pre-drill the holes and screw a steel screw into it to pre-thread it for the brass ones.  It is far too easy to strip or snap a brass screw in the hole.

   If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask!Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

2. 
   UncleDunc | Nov 30, 2003 06:08am | #4

   It looks to me like you would only need the cleat if the hinge leaves were wider than the thickness of the cabinet body. No?

1. 
   jackiechan | Nov 30, 2003 08:07am | #5

   Because only one hinge is being used, there is a tremendous amount of stress being placed on the cabinet's frame when the door is opened.  The cleat more evenly distributes the straining forces as well as reinforces the cabinet's frame.  If the hinge was attached solely into the frame without the use of a cleat, the frame as well as the hinge and door would rack and sag (door) under use.  This would eventually lead to either the door not being able to open or shut properly, or hinge failure, with it most likely being twisted out/off of the frame.Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

1. 
   UncleDunc | Nov 30, 2003 08:45am | #6

   If the hinge leaves are narrower than the edge of the frame, they aren't going to bear on the cleat, and will be "attached solely into the frame" whether or not the cleat is installed. I can see that it might be a good thing to have the cleat there to stiffen the frame, even if the hinge isn't attached directly to it, but that's not the way you explained it. I feel like I'm still missing something.

   I guess another way of asking it would be, if the hinge leaf must bear on the cleat, why is the edge concave, since the concave edge reduces the possible bearing surface between the hinge and the cleat (if the cleat is constructed with one straight and one curved edge, as in your drawing)?

1. 
   jackiechan | Nov 30, 2003 11:03am | #7

   The cleat being used is a modified solid brass H hinge.  This provides a greater distance between the two leaves, thus making it possible to screw one leaf to the cleat with the hinge still clearing the edge of the frame.

   In the design, the cleat side leaf is curved (concave) to provide visual continuity between both halves of the hinge.  (The hinge will be completely visible with the door in the open position.)  The curve of the leave is the same as the curve of the frame, thus providing a visually harmonious geometry.  The curved hinge still retains the total amount of bearing surface needed to be attached to the cleat.  In essence, it is a straight leafed H hinge with the legs of the H curved a bit - no loss of strength, just a different geometry.

   The straight cleat gives a better visual presentation when the cabinet is open.  A curved cleat could easily be substituted, but when the door is open, what you are looking at is a misshapen interior oval.  It gives a the cabinet a heavy lopsided feel.  A straight cleat provides definitive lines that are more visually appealing.  The cleat itself does not have to be huge - just large enough to frame the hinge's leaf appropriately (e.g. not falling over the edge, but not being overly bulky either.)

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   Edited 11/30/2003 3:06:26 AM ET by Jackie Chan

2. 
   UncleDunc | Nov 30, 2003 01:37pm | #9

   Having curved edges on both hinge leaves for visual symmetry makes sense. I was neglecting that.

   On the hinge/cleat issue, I would think you'd want install the hinge so the barrel is as close to the cabinet as possible, both to minimize the visual impact when the door is closed, and to keep the screws as far away from the edge as possible. If the hinge in your drawing is installed as close to the cabinet as possible, the points on the cleat side leaf will be hanging out in the air past the straight edge of the cleat. Or if the points are placed at the straight side of the cleat, the barrel would be farther away than you't like.

   I know this isn't intended to be a scale drawing, since it shows the sides of the cabinet as just a line, with zero thickness. So what I'm having trouble visualizing is the typical thickness of the cabinet sides and the typical width of the hinge leaves. With the hinge you've shown, and assuming the cabinet side is on the order of 3/4", I think the hinges would look absurd if the leaves were wide enough to get the screw holes on the cleat.

   Not that you're responsible for correcting my mistaken visualitzations. :) If you've gotten tired of this, let it go.

3. 
   jackiechan | Nov 30, 2003 09:24pm | #13

   The size ratio between the cleat, the hinge, and the distance between the leaf and the hinge barrel are optimized for the best visual and structural balance.  Sizes are determined by the size, thickness, and weight of the cabinet and its door. 

   The leaf and its screws should reside completely on the cleat.  The hinge being used is fairly thick, so the barrel being a slightly greater distance from the leaf will not effect its strength.  Two additional things that reinforce the strength and pull resistance power of the hinge are: (1) The hinge is recessed into a mortice in the cleat and side of the cabinet - thus resisting the load forces when the door is open. And (2) the hinge is actually more resistant to pull out due to the fact that the leaves are curved.  Instead of the screws being placed in a vertical line, they are spread out in a V (or U) shaped pattern.  It is the same principal as staggering the screw holes on a heavy entry door hinge. 

   I've enclosed a graphic that should help with visualization.

   I'm up for any more questions if you've got them!

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   Edited 11/30/2003 1:26:46 PM ET by Jackie Chan

   Edited 11/30/2003 1:27:48 PM ET by Jackie Chan

   
2. 
   migraine | Nov 30, 2003 12:02am | #3

   Is this going to be a medicine?  If it is then I have an answer for you

1. 
   edcross1 | Nov 30, 2003 12:13pm | #8

   Yes migraine it is going to be a medicine cabinet. Not carrying much wait, just your standard medicine cabinet.

   Does this help?

   Edcross1

1. 
   SgianDubh | Nov 30, 2003 01:45pm | #10

   Ed, a quick trawl through my list of UK hardware suppliers came up with Martin & Company in Brum, and here's a link. http://www.martin.co.uk/index.asp I think I might have located the kind of hinge you're looking for there, and a bit of clicking should take you to their home page.

   EDIT. On a second look, I don't think I did find what you're looking for at Martin's website, but in my past dealings with Martin they were pretty helpful. For instance, they might be able to supply you with one of there H pattern hinges prior to shaping and boring the flap blanks and you could work the shape you need and bore holes to suit yourself.

   Also you might add http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/home.jsp  and http://www.hafele.co.uk/ to your list of hardware suppliers, although the latter only sell to the trade and you need an account with them. Isaac Lord in High Wycombe have a website, https://www.isaaclord.co.uk/ and they supply a range of hardware that might be useful to you. Slainte.

   Website

   Edited 11/30/2003 5:52:28 AM ET by Sgian Dubh

1. 
   Scrit | Nov 30, 2003 02:22pm | #11

   Sgian

   I'd add Woodfit in Chorley, Lancashire to that list, they also sell most of the Hafele range in small quantities.

   Scrit

2. 
   migraine | Nov 30, 2003 08:28pm | #12

   Yeah, I've done one just like this for a client .  Let me see If I can find a photo of it.

   Basically, the cabinet will needs to stick out from the wall so that the door will not will bind on the side of the cabinet and hit the wall.  What I did was make an oval cabinet that had a flat verticle sides.  The flat sides were about 10" long, I think.The mirror was oval and it was mounted to a piece of 1/2" 9-ply Baltic birch plywood.  I used this stuff because of it stiffness.  The 9-ply was laminated with a thin plastic laminate and pressed in a vacuum press.  When the door was laminated, it was then installed on the cabinet with either a piano hinge or 3or4) 1 3/8" overlay "Blum" face frame hinges.  I forgot which one I used.  Once the door was mounted on the cabinet, the whole thing was installed on the wall to make sure it worked.  It was then removed and the glass guy installed a custom etched mirror.  The mirror hung over the frame by 1/2"-3/4" so the flat sides, or even cabinet didn't really show.  Just the door. 

1. 
   edcross1 | Nov 30, 2003 10:17pm | #14

   thanks for the time and effort in answering my problems. I would be most grateful if you could find a photo, it would just help me in visualizing what you are explaining.

   Many thanks again

   edcross1