I’m working on a dining room trestle table with a solid tiger maple oval top, measuring 4′ wide by 5′ long by 7/8″ thick. The oval top will be made from several wide boards glued up together, then routed out to the oval shape.
Because of the oval shape I can’t cover the end grain with a “breadboard” ( i think that’s what it’s called) which would help to keep the table top from warping, in addition to covering the end grain.
Is there anything I can do, by way of joinery to keep the table top from warping, or should I even worry at all?
I was wondering what kinds of suggestions you all might have. Much thanks in advance to any replys.
-Majorelle
Replies
Breadboard ends cause as many problems as they solve (maybe more than they solve). You will undoubtedly hear advise, to rip your boards down to smaller widths and glue them back together, but resist that foolish "cure", while it might work, appearance wise it looks terrible. As long as you seal both sides of your top, and fasten it in such a way, that it can expand and contract, but is still held flat, you won’t have any problem.
Thank you for the info, since this is the first solid table top that I'll have made, It'd be a shame to mess it up. I know all that wood is going to want to move, so you've helped to put my mind at ease.
I'd also like to hear other people's stories who've made solid wood table tops, and any practical advice on the best way to do it.
I'll likely use 6 inch wide boards, edge glued with splines, that should be plenty strong, right? Looking to make a piece of furniture that'll last a long time.
Structurally on a trestle table, breadboard ends do less to hold the table-top flat than do the tops of the trestles. The breadboards are only as thick as the table-top -- typically 3/4" or so. In contrast, the tops of the trestles can easily be several inches thick. (Taper them to something thinner at the ends to avoid diners' knees.) Something 2" thick is 10 times stiffer than something 3/4" thick, so the trestle top has a much bigger effect than the breadboard ends.
If you're going to expose the ends of the boards in your oval top, I suggest you don't use splines. If you make a mistake in placing your dado and splines, you'll have a spline and/or its dado visible at the end of the top. Furthermore, a good glue joint made with ordinary woodworking glue (PVA) is as strong as the wood around it, so adding the splines doesn't make your top any stronger.
Rob,
This is the first time I've heard anyone say that "breadboard" ends can cause problems. What sort of problems?
Alan
Since the grain in breadboards is at right angles to the grain of the top, they present a huge cross grain construction problem. As you know, wood does not shrink any appreciable amount with the grain, but does across the grain. Without proper detailing of the breadboard ends, you run a great risk of having the body of the top split. Even with proper detailing the end of the breadboard will either stand proud of the top or be set in somewhat, depending on the season and moisture content. Unless called for in a reproduction, I avoid breadboards altogether.
Rob,
You're correct, of course, that it can cause the panel to split--but only if the breadboard end is glued, which it never should be. (I keep stumbling over 'breadboard end'; I was taught they are 'clamps.' So please indulge me.) A recent article in FWW(?) advised to glue the center six inches or so of the clamp. IMHO even that is too much. I never glue the clamp at all--only the dowels that hold it in place (of course widening the two end dowel slots to allow for movement).
You're also correct that with extreme seasonal movement the clamp can stick out or in. But I've never seen it do so to any appreciable degree: i.e., it is an iney or an outey, but unless the panel is very wide it's noticeable only on close inspection. I made a coffee table some time ago with clamped ends. Even with the wide humidity and temperature swings in upstate New York the difference was so slight it was never noticeable. After all, only half the total movement of the panel affects the fit of either end of the clamp--no problem in a coffee table top that is eighteen or twenty inches wide. With something as wide as a dining table I can see where it could be a problem in an area with wide swings in humidity.
I made a rather wide desk top with clamped ends a few years ago. Because of its width I was afraid of the iney/outey problem. But the solution to that is simple: use the front dowel as the "anchor" instead of the middle dowel. That way all the movement is to the rear; the front stays nice and flush.
Alan
There is some great info here, very helpfull. I do vaguely remember about an article in FWW dealing with breadboards. For the Oval Table Top I thought there might be some way to modify the "breadboard" or "clamp" for the curves on each end. After thinking it over and listening to everyone's advice I've decided to go with the no breadboard approach.
And on the question of which way to orient the end grain, I've heard good arguments for both and aesthetics sometimes do dictate, (what side of the wood looks better, defects, etc). My understanding is that the wood will always want to cup towards the sap wood side over time, which is pronounced the thinner and wider the the stock. So correct me if I'm wrong Rich, but by this thinking wouldn't I want all the boards, when viewed from the end with the annual growth rings oriented upward? ( so the crown of the table top would happen in the middle, one screw to hold it down? )
I just bought 60 bf of some really nice tiger maple for the table top, I'll try and scan a picture of it for all of you. Should be a challenge to plane it too.
And to Clem, you can go screw because we are woodworkers and the the only boob hear is clearly YOU. The forum is supposed to be a DIALOG and what makes it great is that people can exchange information relevent to them. So sad we're not all at "your level" whatever that is.
Alan here has about 140 posts under his belt, Rob with 50, and Rich with about 25. You however only have 1. So if thats your only contribution, why don't you just keep it to yourself, Mr. Caddidlehopper. I'd be bitter with a last name like yours too.
So my hats off to the people who post and keep the forums going.
Majorelle
Was that post from Clem a "real" post? Or just someone messin' around.
Marjorelle - I'm brain dead right now as to putting a sketch on the forum regarding the growth ring orientation. You are right - a top with all planks oriented in the same way should be mounted so that potential cupping will result in the middle of the panel moving upward, away from the cross pieces and from the sap wood.
Rich
Hand pick your lumber. Minimize the risk of cupping by leaving them to adapt to your shop environment for a couple of weeks if possible. Glue all your heart sides up- for color purposes and also if it does cup, it will cup downward so what ever style of base system will hold it straight and flat for you...(most of the time). Use a registering device of some type that will aid you in your glue up task- I like T's but there are countless other ways of doing this. Remember to apply equal pressure and reverse clamping as needed. I suggest biscuits for splines and depending on what your boards are like go about every foot. Becareful to center whatever splines you use so as not to cause any draw one way or the other. No way is perfect but this one will bring you into scraping and sanding distance. Hi forest girl :D
Another good idea is to make sure that you place the boards that you're laminating together with the grain direction opposite of the one next to it. First one with the grain up, the next on with the grain down, etc. You'll get less movement that way. Best way to check is on the end of the board. Good Luck.
Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)
Majorelle,
There are ways other than a breadboard "cap" to resist warping of a large panel. The breadboard construction simply places the warp-resisting cross piece at the end of the panel. It's a time-proven design, very elegant and when properly done (fixed only by a small glue area in the middle, a screw or pin) works very well and is not a source of problems. The seasonal movement of the panel creates a gap or proud wood that is a hallmark of the design and thought, by some, to add to the charm and honesty of the design.
There are other ways to attach cross members - they can simply be fastened under a wide enough place of the oval. Typically, by a screw at the middle and by screws at the ends allowed to move in slots.
Advice about how to glue up panels is usually split between alternating the direction of grain in adjacent planks or orienting all the planks in the same direction - with the preponderance of views to alternate the grain.
If you alternate the grain, it's true that you minimize the tendancy of the top to "cup" as a piece. However, done in this way, viewed from the end, there will be a wavy look to the top that will be impossible to correct.
I favor the technique of orienting all the planks the same way. If the wood is correctly dried and stable when the top is made, the tendancy of the top to cup as a unit will be very small. Even better, it will be possible to deal with the cupping by a single screw at the center of each cross batten which will pull the center top back against the flat batten, even with the top's edges. Viewed from the end, the annular rings of the top's planks should all arch downward to achieve this construction.
Of course, if the wood is quarter-sawn, such warping is almost eliminated.
Rich
Rich,
This business of whether or not to alternate growth rings has certainly caused a lot of ink to be spilled over the last decade or so. I've sort of lost touch with the arguments; but you seem to have been following along and are much more informed than I on the subject. So what are the experts and practitioners saying these days?
The last I remember reading about this (five or more years ago) was that we could ignore the growth rings entirely. This author (sorry, I don't remember who or where) had lots of test results and scientific observations and such that purportedly showed that the orientation of the growth rings made no appreciable difference in the overall flatness of the panel. Is that still the thinking?
I rather like the idea of being able to match up the grain and color without worrying about the orientation of the growth rings. That is what I've been doing for some years. In my small sample of panels made that way and in my very un-scientific observations, I've seen no problems whatever. Please tell me I don't have to go back to alternating growth rings.
Alan
I sincerely hope the editors from Fine Woodworking read this thread and realize what a bunch of boobs post here these days. This used to be a first class forum with first class knowledge being distributed by first class professional woodworkers. Now it's a bunch of boobs with little or no real knowledge.
Editors; Look you guys, forum software does make a difference. If you can't see that clearly you're all blind. There are much better software packages out there and if you want this forum to have any credibility you'd better attract some real pros. The boobs you've got here now are an embarrassment to woodworking.
I stop in on occasion and find crap like this thread and it just galls me. I do hope Taunton is paying for you jouranlists to learn about the subject matter you're dealing with. This forum has hit bottom and the magazine has taken a nosedive since FWW started being edited by journalists instead of woodworkers.
Clem Caddidlehopper
Well, let's see. Three paragraphs of abuse and invective. No advice on keeping table tops from warping. No rebuttal to the responses you objected to. Blanket denunciation of the posters as boobs.
Is this goal directed behavior? Even if you're right, this approach doesn't seem likely to persuade anyone to make the changes you want made.
There are aspects of the Prospero software that are a PITA, but if it keeps the first class professional woodworkers from posting messages like yours, it can't be all bad.
Clem .....
Those that can't do or teach post messages like yours. Please take your complaints to the Sand Box, that is where they belong. We have wood working to do on this site and don't have time to deal with people like you.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 6/25/2002 11:37:16 AM ET by Steve Schefer
At the risk of upsetting Clem, I’ll add a little more on this subject. I will agree that a split top is an extreme scenario, but with less stable woods and without the proper detailing (which I alluded to, but did not elaborate on) it could happen. I have only used breadboard ends on the fall front of slant front desks, where I took care to glue only the center and I was dealing with mahogany, which is quite stable. I also planed a very slight hollow on the tenon side of the breadboard, to insure that a gap would not open up, between the field and the breadboard, (pins were not part of the original design, so I could not use them. The point about the ends of the breadboard being inset or standing proud, adding the appeal of the piece was excellent. The growth ring controversy, is one that won’t ever die, but in my own work, I never have or will do it. When you alternate the rings, you in effect create a book-matched panel, and with that comes the color difference associated book matching. I think this would be especially pronounced with curly maple, and in my opinion would not be very attractive. I go to the trouble to make sure the grain runs in the same direction on the face, not only to ease the task of planning the surface, but wood changes color when viewed into and with the grain (much like carpet). Now I know this is really splitting hairs, and probably would not be very noticeable.
Rob "the boob" Millard
Yeah, well you're all innocent boobs...
I'm sorry about the reference to you all as boobs but in point of fact, you are. I'm trying to make a point to Taunton and you are all fodder, sorry.
Tim Sams, perhaps you've got Tim Schreiner's ear. I'm hoping you can at least plant a bug that the FWW forum is at the bottom of the barrel for woodworking advice. I don't know if he cares about much but the bottom line but if Taunton is to ever have a decent forum again it won't be with this software.
As to the grain reversing question...I can find references to doing edge to edge glue-ups reversing end grain as far back as 1850. Tage Frid was the champion of paying attention to appearance only and he ain't even dead yet. Tage was a fabulous woodworker and, by the way, a long ago editor of FWW. I'd not take Tage's advice without a block of salt because his pieces haven't been around long enough to stand the test of time. A glue-up done in 1850 has been. The biggest difference in this whole debate is the climate controled enviornments and kiln dried lumber we use these days. Can you boobs tell why???
Hey Rob, you do nice work but the color difference you're referring to has nothing to do with growth ring orientation and everything to do with long grain orientation. You're right that you can't bookmatch without seeing the orientation of the pores but end-for-ending pieces solves this problem. And, by the way, as long as I'm alienating people, it would be nice if you, Rob, made your font size about the same size as everyone elses, your posts come across as shouting.
Drivel on, people. I'll accept my severe tongue lashing and not bother you any more. (Well, maybe not too much.)
Clem
Glad to see your restrained tounge ( not being sarcastic ). As a new member of this forum, I have no reference point for how it is "at the bottom of the barrel." I am interested in your opinion and wouldn't mind you elaborating on the subject for us laymen. What was the forum like before? And again what of the "new software"?
And yes, as a local Rhode Islander I know of Tage Frid quite well, RISD and all. Not a bad point about grain orientation in glue-ups. Glad to see you articulating yourself more.
Majorelle
Majorelle, the word "boobs" was a nice way for me to say there are a lot of folks here giving bad advice. They are boobs. It requires a lot of restraint on my part (and knowledge that my chosen terms would be censored) to use a term as kind as "boobs". This poor and flat out wrong advice without contest puts this forum at the bottom of the barrel.
As to what this forum used to be...I'm sure you've heard enough carping about it and I've no inclination to do so. I hate, positively hate, what the powers that be have done to this forum. The decision was done to save money but I know of other very active forums that spend less than this Prospero piece of trash costs that are user friendly and kind to the eyes. It was a bad, bad, bad decision and the sooner it's admitted by Taunton the sooner this debacle can be corrected. I'm confidant that as soon as the Taunton person that selected Prospero realizes the Taunton forums are full of boobs and that Taunton is losing credibility as a source of information they will abandon this format and begin shopping again. The boobs here giving advice that don't know a hammer from a table saw will speed this process.
I've not the heart or the time to tend to this forum and correct erroneous information regularly but when I see bad information and have the inclination I'm going to speak up in the hopes that novices will not be misguided and I'll point out the jackals here. You can be sure the jackals will be angry with me, take whichever side you like but I'll not patronize anyone, least of all the jackals.
If you start a new thread asking for other woodworking forums you'll get a dandy list. I attend just a couple and know of several more. With the exception of one I can think of no worse forum for legitimate information that this one. Sadly, this used to be the best forum out there for knowledge.
Clem
Dear Clem,
If being a boob is to you, someone who reads woodworking books from more than one woodworker, then I guess I truly qualify as a woodworking boob. I often reference directly from research when I post here and have had several disagreements with what has been posted. I have also found that in woodworking, there is, more often than not, more than one way to accomplish something.
What needs to be understood by all wood workers is that we are working with mother nature here and all bets are off as to what she may do next.
I will bow my head in shame and wait for you to reply to every post here before I comment again if you can just do one thing.... Predict the weather accurately. If you can do that then we'll all know who you really are.Steve - in Northern California
Steve "Cutoff" Schefer,
I think that you are just the kind of person that Clem has in mind when he says there are a bunch of boobs in this forum.
You are always so eager to "answer" (I use the word answer lightly) people's questions with faulty advice that it has become a source of pleasure for me to see how many posts you "answer" in a week and how far off base you can be. In fact you "answer" so many people's questions that I wonder how you find time to actually work with wood. I'm sorry to pick on you again, you just happen to be the worst offender. This forum is being brought down by eager little beavers like yourself. Not because you are a beginner, but because you "answer" people's legitimate questions with illegitimate advice, repeatedly. I've seen in your prolific posts everything from information concerning amperage and tablesaws that could potentially cause someone to have a fire to ideas on joinery that would make Mickey Mouse appear to be an artisan.
On the one hand I want to ask that for the love of God you please refrain from continually posting moronic advice and musings, but on the other hand there is the entertainment value in your posts.....entertainment wins, therefore I cannot bring myself to hit the ignore button for your posts.
O.K. thanks, I'm gone... Never to return.
Steve - in Northern California
Wow. I thought that the people in this hobby were a little more mature. I find much of this thread truly sad. If you look back to the beginning of the thread prior to "Clem's" first post you would see that steve posted nothing. If all of you people that find errors in what steve, or anyone else for that matter, gives as advise, why don't you post your reason and your own advise so we may all learn from it. If you choose to read bad advise and not contribute even when you know it is wrong then YOU are the real problem with this forum. I read nearly every post and post infrequently. Some people like to reply to nearly everything. That is fine. The problem is when people like clem, who claim to know better, do nothing to set bad advise right. Steve, I personally hope you stick around. Familiar names help bring a sense of freindship and community. Maybe if those who know so much would quit bitching about software and get back to discussing woodworking we could all learn something.
Sorry for the rant.
Well, to save incrimination of any not-so-guilty people that I may resemble I'll assure you that I've not posted under a different name since the change to this software. I am Clem, although it's not my birth name.
"Reading books" as Steve does is not an education in and of itself, it's a starting point. Experience is the best teacher of all. I have more than a passing involvement in woodworking, future posts will establish that as I spew my drivel about. Now, where's that book I was reading about neurosurgery...
By the way, I'm a boob about many things, I'm ignorant about many things. I don't find that hard to deal with. I suspect it's the very boobs I was referring to that are most upset and defensive. I'd think some here would welcome a bit of weeding of the boobs.
Now, Mario...you wanna split the cost of "How to Make Friends and Influence Others" and flip a coin to see who should read it first? Or just go get a beer...
Clem
I edited this because I had a name wrong.
Edited 6/27/2002 12:05:35 PM ET by Clem
Gosh Clem,
So much to respond to, where do I start?
First off, like Mario, save your personal attacks of the others for your own forum. Feel free to rank on Taunton, but keep the others out of it--FAIR ENOUGH?
Second, Prospero is here to stay. I'll be the first to admit that as a format, I much preferred the threaded messages of WebX. That's why we're working to get that feature built in here.
Third, jeez Clem, if we're so bad, then why are you hanging around? Are you trying to make us better by insulting the people in this forum? Wow, that's a real contribution.
Last, I'd take your contributions and criticisms a whole lot more seriously if you weren't constantly attacking the people in here, elevating yourself above everyone else. Perhaps you've got some good knowledge, but it's sure not helping much here. One thing I know I've observed of the guys who are masters (our authors Becksvoort, Hack, Lowe), none of them would even think to belittle people like you have.
So yea, I passed your comments on to Tim Schreiner. Perhaps you can either cool it or correspond with me directly?
Tim
____________Tim SamsAssociate Editor, Fine WoodworkingKnots Moderator
Edited 6/27/2002 11:06:22 AM ET by Tim Sams
Edited 6/27/2002 11:14:25 AM ET by Tim Sams
This is an interesting quandry for you, Tim. You and I have both seen a lot of bad information go unchallenged here, no doubt I've missed a lot as only an occasional reader.
Your quandry? Well, let the bad information go unchallenged doing a disservice to the novices here and ultimately Taunton because of the long term result of crummy information given out on a forum or let the boys and girls play. Yeah, I'm a bit rough around the edges but I'll call bull s h i t when I see it and possibly raise the level of information here. Put up with me? Tough one...
You could police the forum and make sure everyone's playing nice, no one's calling the bull s h i t and have group hugs every afternoon at 5:00. The reason the WebX forum was so great for us out here in radioland is because there were folks that knew their stuff and they chased the boobs away. When I first started at the WebX forum, long before you were involved in any way with Taunton, there were a lot of boobs and it took a while for them to go away. This place needs weeding just as that forum did and that forum became hugely successful and not because of group hugs, because of good information.
I'll admit the blanket statement about everyone here being a boob was a bit over the top. I apologize to all who are not boobs. By the way, a boob is not a person who doesn't know something, it's a person who is dead wrong and asserts themselves as knowing. I'll certainly not apologize to any jackal I've made uncomfortable.
Your exposure to the masters (a term used loosely) is nearly always in a different atmosphere than a forum, Tim. Kirby, Krenov, Dresdner, Blackburn, Raffan and a bunch of others that know their stuff wouldn't tolerate the boobs here any more than I will. Actually, compared to some of those guys I'm a powderpuff.
So, Tim, I'll be around until you block me. I'll call bull s h i t when I see it and I'm going to call a jackal a jackal. I have never called myself a master and never will. If you, or anyone here finds fault with my information I'll be happy to learn. But, let's face it, Tim, there are certain things in this trade, woodworking, that are known and if someone gives contrary information they need to be corrected and I will not always have my Martha Stewart face on.
Clem
With so much nonsense going on we lost the initial thread here.
Please keep your attacking comments to yourself. It's okay to challenge someone, but do it in a civil manner. Do it as if you were face to face, not behind the anonymity of a forum or email. Have the class to do that, at least.
I personally, as a novice, have found lots of information helpful, either from a technique perspective or at least a way to direct me to more research. As an adult, I can choose to take up some advice or leave it. I don't rip people for having different opinions.
If you really want to help, drop the attacks and contribute something of worth...because your attitudes are not worth anything helpful here.
My 2¢, your mileage may vary.
Michael (my real name)
Clem,
In the two years I've been working this board (and the 2 years previous to that I was on this board as a user), I've often encountered this defense of bozo behavior and the conversation usually goes like this:
"Hey, I'm just callin' a spade a spade..."
But Clem, you said everyone here was ignorant.
"Are you sensoring me?"
Umm, no, I'm trying to help you communicate.
Clem, if you really feel that your goal in life is to weed out the ignorant information, then I'm telllin' you that you should leave. If you're willing to communicate as a decent human being without demeaning others then PLEASE stay.
Do you really feel that you need to tell someone they're an idiot in order for your information to be seen as correct? Wouldn't a worthwhile answer do the same thing? Think about it.
The ball is in your court--you keep it up and I will indeed remove you.
Tim
P.S. Regarding Blackburn, Krenov...et al). Frankly, most of them wouldn't waste their time or they'd simply present the info and let the person himself figure out that he was wrong. You'd do well to do the same.
____________Tim SamsAssociate Editor, Fine WoodworkingKnots Moderator
Edited 6/27/2002 12:22:43 PM ET by Tim Sams
From Tim's post,
"The ball is in your court--you keep it up and I will indeed remove you."
I'll save you the trouble. Farewell, good luck and no hard feelings.
Clem
Excuse me 63Mario, speaking of contributing moronic advice on the forum, you've just contributed in spades.
First: personal abuse like this has NO place on this board.
Second: if you just cannot control yourself, then do it off line.
Understand?
____________Tim SamsAssociate Editor, Fine WoodworkingKnots Moderator
Tim,
I'm glad that Knots has someone like you to hold people's hands when someone gets their feelings hurt.
You might think that the problem lies with Clem or myself for admonishing people that are full of #### and that we do it because of the anonymity afforded us online. Wrong! The problem with the anonymity of being in an online forum is that there are people that have to respond to everything, even when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. This is why the world wide web is full of misinformation. When you are working with wood working equipment that can maim, misinformation should not be tolerated, especially when there is one person that gives misinformation repeatedly. Tim, since you obviously have no desire to call people to the table for offering ill advice (nor should you) it is up to forum members to pull the reigns on people that give wrong advice under the guise of experience. I assure you that if these conversations we have in Knots were made in a live, face to face forum, there would be members that would not put up with a novice dominating discussions with guesses and faulty advice. Why should an online discussion be any different?
I'll say it one more time, beginner questions are good, while a beginner trying to assert themselves as an expert is bad and dangerous.
Anyway, I am relatively certain that the forum member's feelings that I hurt will be back because he simply enjoys the attention that he can get here, I will not be. Please, no one has to bother typing a response to me that makes them feel like a hero. I promise that I am gone for good. AMF
63Mario,
It is a hallmark of intelligence and education to be able to present one's views without personally attacking those with whom you disagree. I have listened to experts in many fields express diametrically opposing views (physics, medicine, woodworking, printing). They are all good people. They all are certain of their respective positions.
Most of them remain good friends with their collegues with whom they find issue and find no need to become emotional, destructive or even abrasive.
The best thing about forums such as this is the richness of experience that one gets to tap. The worst is the lack of control over rude, aggressive and openly threatening attacks that would normally be prevented by peer pressure, both unspoken and spoken in a face to face conference.
I believe that it is enough to express your viewpoint. Others will either accept it, reject it or ignore it. Nothing is accomplished by attack, other than to reval that aspect of yourself to others. If you think that someone is misleading another, speak up and give your point of view (without the vitriol). Personally, I don't understand your objection to someone else's responding to every question on the board. So what? If you disagree with the advice that he gives, just say so. Or don't read the messages. No one forces you to do so. It's not as though he has stationed a sound truck outside your house and forced you to listen. And from what I've read, his answers are well-meaning and sincerely intended to help the questioner. How are you so certain that you know THE ONLY TRUTH?
Rich
I have to disagree with your take on this situation.
As you say, the best thing about this board was the richness of experience and the quality of the advice which could be obtained. However, while enthusiasm and a willingness to help are wonderful qualities, they don't always make for good advice and bad advice is worse than no advice. Rather than expecting bad advice to be corrected by others, it would be simpler (and more responsible) if the originators of such advice restricted themselves to providing advice on things they actually have enough experience to know well rather than having done once or read about, or at least prefaced their advice with an appropriate disclaimer. I don't mean to imply that anyone should stop or even slow down in their posting, just that a little discretion should be used when differentiating between what you know and what you think you know. Someone commented earlier that Clem should be more polite because he had only one post while those he was conversing with had between 40 and 150. In my view, a more accurate measure of credibility is the size of a person's sawdust pile and the quality of their production rather than their post count or even their photogenic workshops.
It is interesting to note that in spite of the departure of so many of the real experts, the posting volume has at least tripled since the switchover. Several people have each made between 700 and 850 posts in about 100 days, a number that the most verbose rarely reached in a year on the old board. The forum has taken on a new, much more 'social' character and there are many who prefer it this way (as well as many who don't). Its good news for Tim because it helps justify Taunton's investment. It does, however, make it much harder to find the kernels of wheat amongst the chaff and in that sense it is a loss, one that is being protested by Clem and Mario and felt by many others who are not so forthcoming.
Edited 6/28/2002 3:21:59 AM ET by Dick
Dick,
I understand your points. However your take SEEMS to be that posts that you take exception to are known to be false and otherwise objectionable by the author. That's illogical.
f someone posts advice that he honestly believes is correct, and if it is NOT, then the only way for that to be challanged is by someone else to offer alternative advice. And as I've said, personal attacks about the disagreement, whatever such disagreements may be, serve no purpose other than to poison the atmosphere.
You might have a point if some committee of experts from FWW came on here and addressed an indiividual and said, "Look here. Your advice is consistently wrong. It's hurting our image and we think you should stop it." But such a thing would NEVER happen, and even such a committe should have no right to do such a thing, let alone another member.
I have participated in other forums (fora?) made available by manufacturers of repute in a particular industry. Each forum is clearly identified as an exchange between individuals who are free to use the facility, but who are, nevertheless really only guests and who do not speak for the owner of the forum. These are "User-to-User" forums (I hate that term). The sponsor takes NO responsibility for the information posted. He only makes the forum available.
Is that not the case here? Taunton is not claiming that the information posted here is authoritative, valid, etc. Individuals are free to come here and express their views. The forum does not actually REPRESENT FWW.
Of course, individuals who have authored articles in the magazine can identify themselves as such, and contributing editors can identify themselves. And those posts may imply an official endorsement of sorts from FWW, or maybe not.
Also, individuals without "official credentials" soon make themselvs known for their knowledge and credibility by the nature of their advice and the reactions and feedback of others. That's human nature.
We really have no right to demand anything of this forum. It is simply a free bulletin board made available by Taunton for interested people to use. We have all the obligations to behave ourselves as exist in society at large. Tim has the right to exlude anyone at all. Although, because of the nature of the Internet, banishment is impossible to really enforce. Anyone who has been banished can easily gain admission again under another identity.
I'd be interested to hear Tim's views.
Rich
Edited 6/28/2002 3:47:21 AM ET by Rich Rose
Rich & Dick,
I seem to agree with both of you in some ways!
The last thing I want is for someone to leave.
However, what both Mario and Clem missed from my posts (or felt that they could not do) was my wholehearted interest in their opinions, just not their putting down of other people.
This is an open forum, and all opinions are welcome. Sure it's run by Fine Woodworking but it's not Fine Woodworking's take on woodworking--that's what our magazine is for. This is a place for readers, period.
So frankly, every opinion in here should be taken with a grain of salt. That means, when you see something that doesn't jive, say so. My only requirement--the ONLY ONE--is that you do it in a manner that's absent of invective. I'm not saying you have to be polite. But leave the personal comments aside and stick to the point.
It's not a lot to ask.
Tim____________Tim SamsAssociate Editor, Fine WoodworkingKnots Moderator
Wow! 42 posts in response to an oval tabletop question.
I think that sometimes people take this forum a bit too seriously. None of the information that is being typed into this forum will be recorded on vellum and passed down to future generations. I think that Clem and Mario could try to control their anger a wee bit.
That being said, I understand some of their frustrations. I often cringe at some posters that seem to be spending the majority of their lives responding to people's questions with what is sometimes less than sage advice. I am not mentioning names, singling anyone out, or attacking anyone by any means - that would be childish and I don't want to be lumped in with the vicious attacks made by Mario in particular.
Frequent posters seem to give credibility to their advice simply because they give alot of advice. I have seen threads in the past where someone asking advice responded in a positive manor to a frequent poster and ignored what I would consider better advice from a less active responder. I am fairly new to the computer scene and I don't make alot of posts. I am not new to furniture making at all and I think that I do fairly well at earning money in a field where virtually no one becomes a financial mogul. Do I think people would necessarily wait for my advice with baited breath? Probably not, because I don't post very often and therefore don't have credibility. It seems that credibility of one's advice is directly based upon their experience in making posts. I think that it is very important that people who ask questions give credence as well reserve skepticism to all advice given, regardless of how many times someone posts. Typing experience and chiseling experience are two separate skills. I don't have time to post alot and I guess I'm not altruistic enough to bust my hump to make sure people get appropriate advice when bad advice is given. I guess that really makes people like myself a part of the problem. In the future, I am going to try to be better at giving alternate advice when I see opinions that are different from my own.
I love this forum and I am still thrilled that I can have a pseudo-conversation with someone halfway around the world. I find the whole exchange of information amazing. Sorry this post became so long!
Dick and goatvillewoodboy,
Agreed. Back to abusing wood now.
Rich
The issue is not about hurting Tauntons credibility. It is about advice that causes wasted time and materials or worse, accidents and injuries.
As you mentioned, "individuals without "official credentials" soon make themselvs known for their knowledge and credibility by the nature of their advice and the reactions and feedback of others". This whole episode is rooted in exactly that - reaction and feedback. The personal attacks were a step too far, but that doesn't mean the point wasn't valid or that it shouldn't have been made. After all, this forum is open to anyone and their point of view and making nice-nice all the time doesn't move the pursuit of knowledge forward.
It really is not that difficult to differentiate what you know from what you think you know. A technique that has proven effective for you many times is something you know (keyword being many). Something that you read, or something you have just tried are not. Both the latter can be presented on the forum, but should be identified specifically for what they are so as not to give the impression that they have worked for you many times. Wanting to be identified as an expert is not a good enough reason to omit the disclaimer. As I said earlier, it is both simpler and more responsible for participants to take this approach. It would go a long way toward making this forum a better resource than it has recently become.
I have been reading all of these different posts, very interesting and entertaining. I am a novice woodworker, don't claim to be anything else. I do some things with wood very well, others I kind of suck at. What I was actually rather interested in was a breadboard end on a oval table, with emphasis on the oval part. I believe thats what started this whole thing. Anyway, I have been trying to picture both how it would look and the actual construction of it. If anyone would care to comment or describe how this specific aspect could/would/should be accomplished I would appreciate it. I have only seen bread boards on square tables.
I too am a beginner but I have been doing some reading on basics of form, function, rhythm, 5 and 8 and the likes. My opinion is without any practical experience so take it with a grain of salt.
I sketched out what I think your are trying to do and I just cant seem to find the rhythm. The function is there but the form seems odd to me. I have no clue how you would actually do it so maybe I'm not sketching it correctly or something. Most likely its because I don't truly understand this form, function and rhythm thing yet.
Edited 6/28/2002 4:56:33 PM ET by Bernie
Wow, threatened with expulsion for calling someone a boob.
Can I have my milk and cookies now?
Is this Badger Pond?
Delton
"making nice-nice all the time doesn't move the pursuit of knowledge forward"
Agreed. But it doesn't hinder it either.
Whereas, personal attacks are more likely to hinder the pursuit of knowledge than to have any other affect on that pursuit.
On this subject, I am no angel. I think that if you have read enough of my posts, (You were here before the switchover to prospero.), you know that I prefer to take a more relaxed, nice-nice, or humorous approach to posting. More often than not I am successful. But I am no stranger to getting down in the mud and wrassling with a pig now and then.
In my experience, the pig likes it, and all I do is get muddy. I do not think that personal attacks, or even responses to personal attacks have any place here. Every time that I have fallen into that trap myself, including recently, I have come out of it realizing what a fool I was to allow myself to be manipultaed to that place. And have regretted it.
Again, I think it serves no purpose other than to make a few pigs happy. And by no stretch of the imagination can it be considered anything but detrimental to a common pursuit of knowledge.
Tim is not asking that anyone here put aside their humanity. Their ego. He is simply asking that if you have a dissenting opinion, you try to voice that opinion in a way that is not a personal attack.
Quittin' Time
Luka, I can only disagree with one point you have raised here; that making nice-nice doesn't hinder progress. I think it does in the same way that non-competitive games for kids dulls their urge to excel. Sometimes a little reality check is in order to get the discussion back on track and egos do get bruised in that situation even if done in the nicest manner.
I'm wasn't suggresting that conversations of the sort Gabe and Splintergroupie used to have are constructive and contribute to progress. Obviously, one should try to minimize the personal component with the single exception of the instance where the pig comes looking for it and you just happen to feel a little porcine yourself. As long as both parties think its fun and exercise suitable discretion, where is the harm?
You do have a point.
As for where is the harm ? From what I know of you, I am assuming that is a rhetorical question, or you are playing the devil's advocate. Because I am sure you know the answer to that one yourself.
One example, if someone has started a thread for a specific reason, and needing an answer... then a couple of people come along and decide to get porkish with each other in that thread. The thread can be lost entirely, along with the originating person's hope of an answer.
Also, Like it or not, there are a lot of people out there who will simply move on to other forums when they see porkine relationships of the sort we have discussed. People who might otherwise have become a good positive input to the forum.
There are other ways in which it is harmful. These are just two of the more obvious.
Quittin' Time
Edited 8/30/2002 2:52:21 PM ET by Luka
I think a large part of the disagreement is in our respective definitions of Nice-nice. To me it means not sparing someone's feelings if honesty is sacrificed. I suspect it means acting in a civil fashion to you. I believe it is incumbent on anyone who comes here to do that, but I don't think that precludes wrestling.
I used to play a lot of old-timers hockey, three or four hours a week year-round. Everybody came to the game with a sportsman-like attitude recognizing that it was done for fun. It didn't stop people from mixing it up in the corners or the crease and we all sat down to a table full of pitchers when the game was over. The guys that didn't like the jostling could either hang back or play elsewhere, their choice, but they were still welcome to join us at the bar. I didn't hang back, but I never bumped anyone who did. We self-policed and never had a serious injury and very few fights. It was fun! That is my idea of how a forum should work.
You say that might drive people away, but I think removing that element will also cause people to move on. Not that I am particularly valuable input to the forum but I would and I am not alone. I have no problem confining the roughhousing to the Tavern or the Cafe nor any with eliminating personal attacks but the standard of what is or isn't an attack needs to accomodate mud wrestling.
Yup.
I think we're on the same line. Just balancing to different sides of it.
P.S. And you were correct in thinking that I consider it simple civility.
Quittin' Time
Edited 8/30/2002 8:05:07 PM ET by Luka
Hear; Hear;!. Way to go!. We don't need A$$ h@!@S like that.
I have an idea for you Clem, since you have some pretty strong feelings on the subject of Forum Software. ( which I know nothing about )
Start your own little post under general discussion. I'm sure people will listen to whatever you have to say. I want to see how much you really know, or if your just a baby with a big rattle.
It's a pity that none of us can ever be as great and wonderful as Clem. It's nice to know that there really has been a second coming of the perfect human being. I have no problem signing my REAL name to my postings, maybe you should also.
I have used this forum to share information about woodworking. I use my experiences to try to give anyone information concerning what I have done over the past 30 or so years of woodworking. What I post is what has worked for me from trying, and, sometimes, failing, to use the best possible methods for my clients. I also use this forum to help me with problems I run into.
I was taught that people like you, who conceal their identity are basically cowards who like to cause trouble and then run away.
Thank you Clem, for showing us the errors in our daily lives.
Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)
Clem I'll wager your little sister used to beat you up on a regular basis and the neighborhood boys wouldn't allow you to play with them for that reason.
Dear Clem (?)
I appreciate you saying that I do nice work, I consider that high praise indeed coming from you. As for finding historical records recommending alternating growth rings, I can find similar references advocating, veneering one side of a panel and gluing cross grain members (among others), while these can be successfully accomplished, they can also be disastrous. In short, reading is no substitute for actual experience. No, alternating growth ring won’t lead to disaster, but it won’t by itself make a stable panel either. I answer questions on this forum, honestly and from experience. I also post pieces in the gallery, so readers can see my work and judge for themselves what weight to give my advice.
I type my postings in my Word program, which when I use the 12 point size is too small, and the 14 is slightly large. I suggest you slide back in your chair when reading my submissions.
I think it is time to end this back and forth, the readers of the forum have enough information to reach their own conclusions about our respective levels of expertise.
Thanks
Rob "the boob" Millard
I'm having trouble following this (I suppose because I'm a boob). First there's Clem, who, from the language and tone of his post, I at first thought it was the return of RUNS4WOOD. But then RUNS, in his first appearance in some time (that I've seen) also posted in this thread; and RUNS was actually civil and kept his comments to the subject matter. Hmmm.
But then we get the posts from Mario. From his tone and language I thought HE must also be Clem. Can there really be two people so rude, so insulting, so cowardly, and so egotistic? On just one site? Twins?
If there really are that many, why does this site attract them like flies on...well, you know. Maybe we should change the software.
Alan
Edited 6/26/2002 10:50:53 PM ET by Alan
I'm a beginner and as most beginners, I am intrigued by your problem so I grabbed one of my books and it shows a picture of a table that is several boards joined together. The book didn't say what type of edge joinery was used but underneath, the picture showed a piece of wood that spanned all of the boards. The spanning piece was screwed to the center most board and the remaining boards were screwed also but the screw holes in the spanning board for the remaining screws were slotted. According to the book, this was to prevent warping but would not restrict wood movement. It might work, I don't know for sure.
Thanks, excellent idea, too. It nice to see someone responding to the actual subject matter. As far as I'm concerned I'm so D A M N sick of reading non realated drivel. Thanks to everyone with technical advice.
And as far as posting anymore I'm just not partcipating in this stupid discussion. People, don't wear yourselves out working your fingers to the bone, for unrelated bull.
I have been trying to locate a online reference for a bread board edge. I know that I have seen them on round tables but not on oval. But then again the only deference would be that it would be just a little more complicated.
Check out the link below. It shows you how a fellow installed them on his round table. May just work for you.
http://www.geocities.com/oldwoodcrafter/table.htmScott C. Frankland
Newfoundland Wood Worker
Well, Majorelle, sometimes threads just take on a life of their own. This is one of those times. I've read with amused interest. This is my first or second post at this new format so if verbosity is your key to validity I won't rate very high up on your scale.
Do a good glue-up and fasten the top to the trestle allowing for seasonal movements and call it done.
Wood moves depending on whether or not it's picking up moisture or losing moisture. It moves one way if it's gaining and the opposite if it's losing moisture so heart side up or down is not a reliable solution to your problem. Using the trestle to restrain the top is, just make sure you allow for expansion and shrinkage in the way you attach the top.
I'll just add, forget the breadboard ends it does not apply to an oval table.
Lee
Edited 6/28/2002 9:51:55 PM ET by LeeGrindinger
SO HOW ABOUT THOSE BREWERS?
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