I am building a standalone Bar (Like a buffet but taller) for a customer. They want it black which I hesitated on when i gave a price because i was concerned how I would go about finishing it. I made it clear that it will not look like a high gloss piano finish. I think their expectations are OK but i’m not happy with what i have so far.
I filled the pores (birch ply) on the top of the bar and primed everything with B-I-N Shellac base primer. Sanded primer after it dried. My plan at that point was to buy Sherwin-Williams Proclassic arcylic tinted black and spray the cabinet and doors. (I’ve used that approach with white in the past and had good results) SW said they can’t tint that product to black so the sold me a black “all surface enamel latex & alkyd”. I opened the can and the stuff is the thickest paint i have ever seen. I didn’t think i would be able to spray it throguh my HVLP sprayer so i proceeeded with brushing and rolling (foam roller) on a coat.
Cured for a week, looks like crap. i was carefull on the edges but there was still build up. i tried to sand away but it is not easy to sand without peeling up the paint. I think i need to take a different approach. Anyone have suggestions on how to get a reasonably smooth black color?
Maybe a black milk paint and then a WB clear topcoat for protection?
I can spray, but only water based products.
Thanks,
Mike
Replies
How about black lacquer?
I would recommend using a black lacquer as well. Much easier to spray than paint, easier to sand, dries quicker, looks better. If you can find an ML Campbell distributor, ask about their Polystar water-based lacquer. I think you can get it in black. Unfortunately, a high quality, glossy black finish is arguably the hardest finish to get right.
Tinted Water based laquer sounds like an option. I made it very clear to the customer that it was not going to be gloss and they were OK with a more matte finish.
Another thought crossed my mind.. Could this schedule work?
1) Sand out the bad paint to be smooth
2) Brush/Roll on a tinted black/dark coat of the BIN shellac primer. (Shellac in case of compatability)
3) sand smooth
4) Black milk paint? 2 coats by hand? (I've never used Milk Paint)
5) spray finish with clear water based varnish for durability.
I'll look for an ML Campbell Distributor locally too.
Thanks, Mike
I suppose the milk paint schedule you describe would work, but I've never used milk paint so I can't offer any first-hand advice. I think you would get a better finish by spraying lacquer rather than brushing milk paint (or brushing any other product for that matter.) If you do use lacquer, be it ML Campbell or any other, I would scuff sand the painted surface first and then use some sort of sealer between the paint and the lacquer. ML Campbell makes a pigmented sealer for use under the polystar, but I can't remember what it's called. Or, I suppose you could use just plain dewaxed shellac. Whatever you do, I would test the entire process on a small area first before you tackle the whole job to be 100% sure you don't have compatability issues between the various products.
Milk paint works best over bare wood. Over sealed wood you would have to add an acyrlic binder that would essential turn it into an acyrlic paint. No advantage there I would think.
Target USL is sold in black at http://www.homesteadfinishing.com , Jeff Jewitt's company. Should be ready to spray right from the can.
Steve,
Thanks for the warning on the milk paint over painted surfaces. I would have traveled down the wrong road yet again....
I've purchased items from Homestead in the past and have always been happy. I need to start thinking ahead a little more on finishing projects so i don't keep running into the problem of not having time to wiat for mail order on a project.
Thanks agian,
Mike
Mike,
You may want to consider stripping the paint before you proceed with the lacquer. If you are unable to sand the paint flat, as you previously mentioned, adding lacquer over it isn't going to make it look any better. Also, unless you have a week or so to test the compatability of the products, you'll be uncertain of the quality of finish. In the end, stripping and starting over will probably save time and alot of anguish as well as give you peace of mind.
David
I found the ML Campbell Polystar locally in stock.
My new schedule:
1) sand the cabinet until the old paint is smooth.
2) apply some kind of primer coat again. (thinking the Shellac based BIN which seems to level and sand really easy)
3) Spray the Polystar
4) Sand? or
4) just repeat step 3 again until coverage and it looks good?
Does this sound like the easiest way to get the desire results?
thanks for your help.
Mike
I would try a test with the polystar over BIN before proceeding. I've never tried that specific combination so I wouldn't guarantee it will work. I don't see why it wouldn't, but the one thing I've learned is that if something can go wrong, it will. As for applying the polystar, you will almost surely need at least two coats to get good build and uniform color, and you should lightly sand between coats. What grit you use, and how many coats you apply, will ultimately depend on how the lacquer goes on and how smooth the resulting surface is. Only you can be the judge of that.
I bought the ML Campbell Polystar. I tested it on the BIN covered pieces on Saturday and everything seems fine so far. A couple of things i noticed about the Polystar.
1) It's pretty thin and doesn't need much pressure to atomize. I had to run quit a few test pieces before i got the gun set right.
2) The directions say to apply in 4-5 mil coats. I have a gauge and on my test pieces anything over 2 mils would run on a vertical surface. Is this normal? When a manufacturer says 4-5 mils do they intend for that to be on a horizontal surface?
3) I had a few pieces that seemed to have small "craters" while spraying the second coat. I sanded all the pieces (main cabinet, two doors, 3 drawer fronts, 6 shelves) with the same paper after the second coat. Vacuumed the pieces, wiped with a microfiber cloth. There were portions of a door and the top of the cabinet that had the craters. Maybe 10-20 craters on each usually in one location. Is this caused from contamination? Are they the fisheyes?
Thanks for the recommendation. This is definitely a learning process.
Mike
Well Mike it looks like your on your way now and things are looking up.
I'm a strip to the bare wood guy and start over. What I have learned over the years is to stick to one product line and you won't go wrong.
I wouldn't worry about your build thickness, (between coats) at this point and instead shoot for a good finish. You can apply light coats to build up to your final thickness as long as you have a good surface finish after each coat.
Those pits or surface craters can be sanded out so just blend into the surrounding area and apply more material. Never touch the surface with your fingers or any other part of your body. I'd ware gloves.
At this point the thing that most worries me is a reaction between these various products. The jury's out on that issue right now but may rise up to bite you down the road a bit.
Good Luck,
RGJ We only do this once. Enjoy the ride.
A follow-up to my Paint it Black adventure.
Lessons learned.
1) I'm an amateur and I shouldn't expect professional finisher results. It's still pretty good and better then mass produced furniture I looked at this weekend in a local high end furniture store but it is not perfect.
2) Black paint, or in this case WB tinted lacquer, is humbling.
3) I need a spray booth or at least a better way to control dust and overspray. Dealing with dust nibs was a constant problem. I minimized this by orienting the top to be vertical when i sprayed but it was still a problem. I'm dreaming up ways to make a temporary clean area in my shop that I can knock down when I'm not spraying. Any ideas would be appreciated.
And now my question. The top looks pretty good but i have one area that has some roughness because of some dry spray. At least I think it is dry spray. I was putting the last coat on the top (and I'm out of finish) and there was one area where it looked like i didn't get enough overlap. I quick sprayed it again (maybe 60 seconds later) and this line has a different sheen. (flatter) Is there an easy way to blend this without spraying again? I'm thinking rub it out with steel wool and wax? maybe just wax it? Or some other product or technique to take care of this?
Thanks,
Mike
..... and there was one area where it looked like i didn't get enough overlap. I quick sprayed it again (maybe 60 seconds later) and this line has a different sheen. (flatter) Is there an easy way to blend this without spraying again? I'm thinking rub it out with steel wool and wax? maybe just wax it? Or some other product or technique to take care of this?
What sheen did you use on the laquer? Gloss, semi gloss, dull, flat?
Rubbing the finish out with steel wool will make that portion uniformly flat - then waxing it will impart a little more gloss back. So, yes, the steel wool will eliminate the differences in sheen - but it will dull the gloss down all the way. If you wanted to end up with a semi-gloss or high gloss finish then you won't get there after you use the steel wool, unless you go through several grits of rubbing compound and a buffer.
I can't remember if I weighed in earlier in the thread, but I do this all the time professionally - with both black and custom color paints. Best way to achieve what you wanted would have been to use a laquer undercoater (black or tinted to your custom color) with a clear laquer top coat - either in gloss, semi gloss, dull, etc. The undercoater dries fast and sands easily. Two coats of that and a clear top coat and it looks like it came out of a furniture factory. I don't have much experience with water based finishes but I can tell you I spray paint everyday in a booth that has about an inch of laquer overspray dust (think talcum powder) on the floor and I get next to no dust nibs/trash in my finish. The laquer sets up fast.
Lee
Thanks Lee.
I used satin black tinted WB Laquer http://www.mlcampbell.com/pages/starpage.asp?star=POL
Hindsite is 20/20 on this one for me and I wish I would have done things differently. I have spent a lot of time trying to get the top to have a good finish and going the route you suggested I think would have probably been easier and less time consuming. I've sprayed a lot of things white (or clear coat) before and never seemed to have this problem of getting the sheen to be consistent. I'm sure my spraying technique is not where it should be and doing this in black has been a humbling experiance. But, i've learned a lot which will be helpful on the next project.
I'll give the steel wool and wax a try. I have some Johnson's paste wax and the Minwax wax. Would either one of those do the trick?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike,
Either wax would be fine. Make sure you use 0000 steel wool!
Take care,
Lee
I bought a few packs of 0000 steel wool last night.
One last question (i promise)
Do I rub out the finish "dry" with the steel wool and then apply a coat of wax with a cloth and buff? Or do i apply the wax with the steel wool and continue to rub out the finish with the wax acting as a kind of lubricating agent?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike,
No problem on the questions - ask as many as you like. I suppose it would work either way, but I usually just buff lightly with the steel wool. After that, clean any stray wool fiber strands from the piece, then wax on, wax off daniel sahn ;-)
The resulting surface will beg to be touched.
Lee
Oh yes, one more thing. Try to buff with the steel wool in one direction only. In other words, don't do circles or go left to right then up and down on a panel. I always try to keep in the direction of the grain. Reason for this is you may see where you switch directions as the minute scratches will be at different angles to each other. On a door frame that might not be entirely possible, but I go left to right on the rails and then up and down on the stiles. One direction only on the panel.
Do a test first in an out of the way spot to make sure you like the look you're getting. If for some reason it's not working out you may still be able to shoot a clear coat over the piece and eliminate your sheen lines. But personally, the rubbed out look is much better and feels really nice to the touch IMHO
Good luck,
Lee
Lacquer is what pianos are finished with, tough to work with but oh so beautiful. Could you thin out the black enamel they sold you and go for multiple thin coats? That is how I painted my den cabinets and I used an HVPL with a non water based finish.
I have thinned the SW Proclassic before to a useable level but this black paint is really, really thick. The first thought i had when i opened it was that i bought a can of roofing tar.
I'm almost certain i would have to add more then 10% water to get it to shoot and then i start wondering if the paint is going to do funny things.
But, maybe i don't have much to lose at this time. It might be worth a shot on a few test boards.
Thanks,
Mike
Sand or strip back to bare wood.
Re-sand to 220.
One or more coats of OIL based primer. (Don't go to Lowes or HD, go to your local paint store.) Do not skimp on the $$ for the primer.
Sand lightly when each coat of the primer has cured. (Not just dried, but cured. Read the label.)
First topcoat of ALKYD/OIL based enamel.
Sand lightly when the first coat has cured (see above about cured vs dried.)
Second/final coat of alkyd/oil based enamel.
And do your work in an environment that has very little dust in the air -- change furnace filters to the really good ones, be sure to vacuum the room well (with HEPA filters in the vac maybe). If needed, add a furnace filter taped over the heat registers.
That's about as close as you'll get to a "factory laquer" finish without the factory and the explosion-resistant spray booth.
If you really want paint to be smooth, use oil paint. Otherwise, use laquer.
I'll give you a different way to go. I have had great success spraying Crystalac products. They make a product in satin, semi and full gloss for exactly what you need. I sprayed a desk I built for a customer a few years ago with the gloss black, and it turned out great. Follow their directions, and use a very good primer. Prep work is everything for a terrific finish, obviously. Here's a link. You can spray it with an hvlp right out of the can.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CLU-5490/Gallon-Gloss-Black-Topcoat-CrystaLac
Check it out.
Jeff
I have pained several cabinets and other pieces with M.L. Campbell's vinyl sealer that they tint black. It sprays very well and makes a very good undercoat, especially if the surface might come in contact with water. After spraying/block sanding several coats I then clear coat it with their post catalyzed satin lacquer. It does a beautiful job.
You might want to check out M.L. Campbell's web site for a list of their products. All I have used work great and are easy to apply.
Furndr
mike
sorry I am so late getting in on this, but I think I could have saved you some time. I go to General Finishes web site and check out their Enduro Acrylic water based finishes. I think this would be just the ticket. Give them a call and they are very helpful. I have used their finishes may times and have been very happy..
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