Replies

1. 
   dondownunder | Sep 29, 2005 06:18am | #1

   Greg

   I'm interested in such a package for my workshop. We make custom furniture but also do kitchens. I think the marketing boys will be better placed to give you a realistic price point but certainly the ability to 'rent' the program on an hourly basis is attractive. A similar deal is currently being offered by the makers of a program here in Australia but it is kitchen design oriented & I'm unsure what the take up rate has been. One of my apprentices has played with it & when we get time we are going to sit down & give it a go. Mean time I'll check out your links.

   Don

    

2. 
   ring | Sep 29, 2005 09:04am | #2

   Greg,

   First off, I should tell you that my knowledge of computers and programming is at the level of most 8-year olds.  I am relating to your post from a purely woodworking business point of view.

   Our shop does mostly kitchens, each one custom designed, at the rate of 3-4 every month.  Our in-house designer does all the plans by hand.  We have been tempted by CabinetVision but have not gone for it just because of price.  A program like this would need to answer 2 completely different problems for us:

   1.  As a sales tool, it would be good to have  3-D views of a project while the discussion with the client is going on.  Many times this implies a laptop version which would have to be linked to the main program computer in the office.  And the rendering needs to be excellent - wood grain, lighting in the room, etc.  If it is just mediocre, then better off not at all.  And of course, very easy to use.  An intelligent person would need to be able to run it in half an hour while talking to the client at the same time.

   2.  As a production tool, it needs to take units from a library of models, make adjustments in parameters, and put them into place in the virtual room.  It needs to give us 2-D views from any plane, a drawing (blow-up ?) of the construction of each unit, and a cut list of parts for the whole project.   If it has an integral sheet optimization  it would be nice, but not critical.  We already use an optimization program for some jobs.

   If you are offering something like this in the neighborhood of $1000, we're very interested.

   DR

1. 
   chrisdavis | Sep 30, 2005 01:33am | #14

   I started using ecabinet systems program and it is powerful and easy to use.  It is made by Thermwood (The CNC router company).  The best thing is it is totally free.  You can purchase all materials directly from the program too.  They ask that you consider using their suppliers, but you don't have to.  They say it is just as powerful as Cabinetvision.  Their web site is http://www.thermwood.com.

2. 
   jrpow | Nov 09, 2005 06:32am | #16

   Have a look at ecabinetsystems.com everything you want is there for free yes free and no catch.

1. 
   DennisS | Nov 09, 2005 08:10am | #17

   Hasn't anyone else but me looked at CabinetsPlus as a parametric modeler for cabinets? I haven't followed through with it since I'm not really doing enough cabinet making to use it a lot but the first iterations looked pretty powerful. In fact, I was more impressed with it that with the eCabinet program. Both have probably improved in the several months since I last looked at either one. CabinetsPlus isn't free but it's certainly a good value for the money, in my opinion.

2. 
   woodworker79 | Nov 09, 2005 04:31pm | #18

   I would really like to try e-cabinets, but I'm a hobbyist not a professional. I'm building kitchen cabinets so it looks like this could be helpful to me. Has anyone had anyluck obtaining the software without being a pro?Tim

1. 
   jrpow | Nov 10, 2005 05:49am | #19

   Maybe if you emailed them and explained that this software is just what you have been looking for. and it would be a great help with your work. Allthough you dont manufacture kitchens as a pro you have been asked to design  kitchens and other pieces of furniture by many people and this type of software would be ideal. Have a go you might get a possitive result, you have nothing to loose.

3. 
   miterman1 | Sep 29, 2005 05:58pm | #3

   Not having a full time shop anymore the expensive model would not help me at this time. But I can see the advantage of it and if I decide to go back into a full time shop oneday I would be very interested in it. This express version you talked about, where could one find it to try it.

   Wade

1. 
   GM | Sep 29, 2005 11:13pm | #8

   Hi Wade,

   You can download Alibre Design Xpress at http://www.alibre.com/xpress.

   -Greg

1. 
   miterman1 | Sep 30, 2005 01:27am | #13

   Cool, thanks. I will let you know how it goes. The main problem with computers and programs is that you have to be smarter than they are to work them.

   Wade

4. 
   generalkael | Sep 29, 2005 06:11pm | #4

   It sounds like an interesting package, and large shops can probably afford it. Those of us that are 1 man shops or do woodworking on the side need something that costs less. TurboCAD fits the bill at around $300 for the Pro version.

   Scott
   Slacker Extraordinaire
   Specializing in nothing but knowledge in everything.
1. 
   GM | Sep 29, 2005 11:29pm | #10

   Hi Scott,

   Thanks for the feedback.  I am familiar with TurboCAD Pro and we are really targeting a different class of product.  Specifically, one providing a full feature based modeler, assemblies with 3D constraints and associative 2D drawings.  On the other hand I suppose it doesn't matter if TCP fits the bill for you, although the Pro version is offered for $749 on their web site ( I have seen offers at the price point you mention, however).

   I am not knocking TCP, I know some of the folks at IMSI, and I think they have some good products.  Interestingly they just announced a strategic change to become an Internet media company called  Broadcaster, Inc.

   -Greg

5. 
   jb3 | Sep 29, 2005 07:02pm | #5

   I think you would have good success if you could bring the price in at around $275.00.  I have been using Ashlar's "Drawing Board" CAD program I purchased from an ad in the back of Popular Mechanics several years ago.  The advertised price at the time was $49.99 with a money back guarentee.  I bought it, learned to use it, and still do.  I think I have upgraded 2 or 3 times, so the low sales price was successful in getting new users.  I know I am personally responsible for at least 3 other purchases.  FWIW

   Jim

    

1. 
   Adrian | Sep 29, 2005 09:47pm | #6

   I would be interested (small shop owner hat on now). As an instructor (day job), I teach Autocad, Mastercam, Cabnetware, and other packages too. I have Inventor, and have worked with it enough to see it's value....just don't have the time to devote to it right now to figure it out completely (also have eCabinets loaded up that I have to learn). We've done a bit of comparison work with Solidworks and Inventor.

   My advice would be to focus on the production tools, and smake the design side simple.....there are only a certain number of people out there that want a pure design tool, especially if it is expensive. But the folks who want to design, then output to cutlist/nesting programs, and get all the views they need for submissions, are definitely looking for options. If you can either add a CAM module, or make it easy to output to a third party CAM package, that's valuable too. The programs that can do all that are a lot more than $1000.

   The other piece of advice is to have a streamlined version for woodworkers.....Inventor can do a lot, but maybe 80% of it will never be used by a typical woodworker. A simpler, leaner, less expensive modeller that can output the production stuff has the potential to do well.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

1. 
   GM | Sep 30, 2005 12:06am | #12

   Hi Adrian,

   I apreciate the input, and your experience with Inventor and SolidWorks and the other CAD/CAM tools gives you the exact reference point from which to assess the capability.

   The product will output DXF/DWG or can be interfaced directly to numerous CAM systems via our API.  We actually bundle some CAM systems in our Pro and Expert products for 3D milling, and it would be relatively easy to identify a partner with whom we could bundle a very effective and affordable CAM solution.  Is the need primarily 2-axis NC for cutting or are their 2-1/2-axis or 3-axis needs too?

   I hear what you are saying about 80% of the stuff in a product like Inventor not being needed by a typical woodworker.  We actually believe that there is a lot that even the majority of mechanical users don't use, so that is one of our primary value propositions: "don't pay for more than you need."  We could trim out more though, things like lofts and sweeps, 3D sketch, shelling, and so on, to make it leaner and simpler, things not critical for mainstream woodworking.

   Thanks for the feedback.

   -Greg

1. 
   Adrian | Sep 30, 2005 06:29pm | #15

   Greg-

   For your mainstream cabinet/millwork shop, they need 3 axis at least....there are some shops using 4 or 5 axis also (some machines add the fourth axis with an aggregate head, rather than getting into a true 5 axis machine). A lot of what they do is 2 1/2 axis (drilling holes, routing grooves, contouring shapes), but you need the third axis....for things like moulding profiles etc.

   If you want to look at CAM partners, or look at the types of features woodworkers are looking for , I'd suggest looking at Mastercam Router (which is aimed at woodworkers), or Alphacam, to start. I guess it is regional, but in my region it's Mastercam, or people are using packages that combine design and CAM, like Cabinetvision (which has Alphacam inside), Microvellum, etc.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

2. 
   GM | Sep 29, 2005 11:46pm | #11

   Hi Jim,

   Interesting, I was expecting there would be some price pressure.  To that end we were thinking of possibly two levels of product one for casual hobbyists and part-time professional woodworkers, and one for full-time production use.

   It would be tough to get to $275 for this type of product for everything I mentioned being included, but as you may have seen if you checked out the image links I sent, even the free product does some pretty sophisticated stuff. 

   Per your comment, we could also offer a flexible upgrade path to more sophisticated capabilities to help provide a very accessible entry point for everyone.  Of course, free is a pretty good entry point too.  ;-)

   Thanks very much for the input.

   -Greg

6. 
   woodworker79 | Sep 29, 2005 10:48pm | #7

   Greg,

   As a mechanical engineering, I'm always using a CAD package. Currently my company uses Solidworks. I'm also using solidworks (since it is most accessable to me right now) for designing my kitchen.

   Some questions on Alibre:

   1. Does it have some type of design table or family table as they are known in Solidworks and Pro-Engineer? This would be a must have for woodworking. For those not familiar with the term, a family table allows you to create one part and associate it with a spreadsheet to make multiple configurations of the same part. For example, you can make one door rail and replicate it very quickly for all necessary lengths.

   2. How specific to wood is the photorendering capabilities? I've found that solidworks does not do very well with wood grains. This isn't a knock against solidworks because their primary market is mechanical design, not woodworking.

   All in all, I'm interested in checking out the free version since I'm just a hobbiest. For all the other woodworkers out there, parametric is a great way to go. It makes life so much easier to make design changes.

   Tim

1. 
   GM | Sep 29, 2005 11:18pm | #9

   Hi Tim,

   Configurations will be added in our V9 release in January.  We've been working on this a long time and have a nice implementation of it working now so we're all excited about what this will offer to the mainstream mechanical market as well as woodworking and others.

   We have a good photorealistic renderer now called Alibre PhotoRender, and we are looking at refining it to address the need to orient the grain and have different textures on different faces of a part.  Are there other specific requirements related to handling the rendering of wooden objects?

   Check out Alibre Design Xpress at http://www.alibre.com/xpress.

   Thanks,

   Greg