I have enjoyed building Shepherd tools kits, and now I am exploring the Idea of scratch built infill plane. I want to use adjusters. for a few of the ideas I have. I
I have sourced the steel, brass, and wood. What I would like to know is who sells adjusters and level caps for infill planes. I can get blades, or make them and the cap irons. I know about Hock blades and have used them in a couple of other wooden planes, but is their anybody that makes then specifically for infills?
I would also like to know of any plans/drawings out there. Especially a Norris style joiner and an A11 box mitres. Other would also be welcome.
Some how I think others would like to see this info too.
Will Graham
Replies
The St. James Bay tool Co. has many of the parts you are asking about. Also there is a business called "The Best Things" that sells a 3/16 Hock iron made purposely for infills.
Ron
Hi Will,
Ron Hock does make infill irons. They are available from "the best things" in either high carbon or A2 and available in two thicknesses (5/32" & 3/16").
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/hock.htm
Try this site for drawings etc.
http://www.handplane.com/archives/category/plans-diagrams/
Cheers,
Konrad
Will
For singlr-thread adjusters, also look at Classic Planes in the UK
http://www.classicplanes.com/spares.htm
There are dawings at Cameron's site (handplane central) and Kingshott's book has some excellent profiles (Making and Modifying woodworking tools is something like the title).
I made the lever cap and used a recycled 10mm screw and a bought-in knurled knob on my chopper plane - not hard to do. You'll need to be able to thread a hole.
Malcolm
I'll just add that I'll put the side profiles for a Norris jointer or two up on the site within the next day or so.
Handplane Central
Cameron
That will be very usefull - there's a lack of that sort of information!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
*lol* I'm not sure if you meant that or not or whether you were pulling my leg, Malcolm? Some people might think there's far too much Norris and Spiers stuff up on the web and not enough of the more innovative stuff.
Handplane Central
Sorry, too brief. I was serious. I'd love to see a lot more design detail on the web, and your site is where it should be. Doesn't just have to be trad of course - why can't we have people's doodlings and noodlings?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Thanks.
C.R. Miller <!----><!----> That would be great to get some drawings for the jointer on line. I need a good jointer plan.
I have found the the Classic Planes home page. And like the adjuster for my jointer project.
I was also looking for the style of adjuster used by Holtey on his low angle planes and Norris used on some of theirs. The adjuster hooks into the blade with a small peg/pin instead of catches the cap iron screw. One that is used for planes without a cap iron. Does this style have a name?
I want to make a something like No 11 S high angle smother, then a BU LA box miter plane, and then work up to the jointer.
I am also thinking of a shoulder plane with an adjuster.
SNAP Will!
I've also been looking at Karl's 11S as a model. I'm designing a slightly more sculptural version, with a taller form factor, using Terry Gordon's 6mm (quarter inch) blades without a chip breaker and un-adjustered. Every shop should have a single-handed smoother with a York-pitch BD iron!
I've also ordered a couple of Hock irons with chipbreakers (direct from Ron, BTW, no need to go to The Best Things" or any other retailer).
I have several of the Classic Planes single thread adjusters (in fact, I replaced the double thread adjuster in my Shepherd smoother with a CP single thread adjuster - because it advances the blade at a slower rate, makes adjustment easier).
Edit: making my own is the next step - I may have to send out some work. The beauty of a pin adjuster is that the engineering is potentially a little simpler.
My plan is to take Cameron's advice and begin making for sale! I'm going to do a run of moderately-priced block planes (as above) and put them on my web site for sale as they come out of the shop.
M
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 3/30/2006 4:33 pm ET by Malcolm
You are a few planes ahead of me of the scratch built type. I chose the 11 S because of its simplicity and it seems to have a lot in common with the Krenov. I have a two inch Hock blade from a failed Coffin (Ash is a very poor choice for this project, way too hard). The only part of the design I have not solved is the Lever Cap. But the design should adapt to a wedge as a fall back.
The 11S should help me get the feel of a scratch built, focusing on getting good results on the dovetails and fitting the infill. I got a lot of hands on coaching from Ben and Doug building my Norris smother. I used a lot of their shop tools. Now I have to tool up myself. I got a good anvil plate this week, steal and brass for the sole and sides. I am still working out how to cut the mouth in the steal sole. Any ideas? I don't have a lot of power tools, I tend to find hand tools a better deal. Thus my desire for Planes.
Take it slow on the Professional Plane maker idea.
Seems customers (like me) are very demanding of your time and want it sooner then later. Takes the fun out of it.
Try to stay away from the build to order concept. Make them, then sell them. Not the other way around.
Don't let a waiting list develop. Us wood workers don't seem to like waiting.
Don't invest more then you can afford to loose. Make the net cash flow pay for the growth, not the cash in flow.
I am getting an idea of the problems that lead to the fall of Shepherd. Once the fun is gone..... the best way to kill the fun worries about cash flow.
Don't be disappointed if I don't intend to buy one of your fine planes. I want to build my own.
Dealing with bad businesses is part of my real life job. Sorry if I preached.
Will Graham
Opening up (developing) the mouth can be hard work. The easy way is to take your bit of steel to a millshop and ask them to mill a slot with a 45 or 50 degree slope exactly where you want it. If they're any good, it'll only require 10 minutes to square up the ends with a file and you'll be done.
The traditional small-shop way is to drill a series of interconnecting holes, and file out the extra metal. With a good quality pillar drill and some skill, this is actually quite easy. That's what Kingshott talks about. Takes a while tho.
Another approach - which I use, is to put a little 1mm cutoff disk in your 4.5 inch angle grinder, and freehand the slot! Needs confidence and a steady hand (and good clear markout lines to work to) but is quick!
Good luck
Malcolm
Oh - on the business side, yes, I intend to make at my speed, not take orders (well, we'll see), sell from the web page, and only sell what's finished and ready to go. I'm not a commercial maker, don't do it for a living, and cash flow is not an issue (buying materials almost job by job). Thanks for the advice - I've been there, and know the risks!
I kind thought I was preaching to the choir. Maybe some others will take heed. Somethings can't be repeated enough.
I was looking at your drawings and your web page. It was so inspiring, I just had to back into my shop and work on my Norris smoother. All I need to do is spit and polish now.
I think I'll find some scrap steel and work on the technique for creating a mouth.
Time for lights out
Will - there's a sequencing issue with the mouth as well. I do it after cutting and test-fitting the dovetails, but you could do it first, so that if it goes wrong you haven't wasted the work on dovetailing.
Some makers also advise leaving the final finishing until last, because truing the sole can open the mouth a bit. Good advice, but I find it easier to get as close to a final size and angle before assembling the plane as possible.
It's much easier to work on the mouth when you have unobstructed access to it, and when you don't have to worry about accidentally filing the insides of the sides.
Cheers
Malcolm
Will - 'nother thought.
If you do have to get into the throat area with files after assembly, and you've taken some trouble to pre-finish the insides, either side of the mouth, mask off the metal with some thin plastic. That way you won't scratch-up your finish. To see what a nice throat should look like, examine one of Karl Holtey's photos - he puts his name there!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Yeah. You are right. I find that once you get to a certain point anything you try to fix or adjust usually cause another problem. The finish is the usual victum. Right now I am trying to figure out how to clean up and polish the brass on the inside throat of my Shepherd Norris. This weekend will be the end of my fussing over it's appearance. After that its will be a working plane, and onto the next project, the 11 S
Earlier in this thread I asked about an adjuster for BU planes (no cap iron, no cap iran screw). I still have not located lever caps.
Will Graham
Will
I'll be putting some drawings and specs for a modified Norris-style adjuster on my web site later this weekend (currently logging in from the daughter's flat in Dunedin). If you can use taps and dies you'll be able to make one. I'm seriously thnking about making DIY kits!
Malcolm http://www.macpherson.co.nz
I have been thinking about how to make my own adjusters. I have been looking at all the ones I have. They seem easy enough if you can get the steps corect. Many have a double set of threads. This may be beyond my current understanding. I will look forward to your posting.
Sombody should write a book on building infill planes.
Will Graham
> Many have a double set of threads <
Can someone explain why? I've never understood why double threads are a benefit! The single-thread Classic Planes version seems better to me.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
From the examples I have (Shepherd, LV BU, LN) The secondary threads have a higher threads per inch count than the primary thread. This would give a finer depth control over the blade. One complete turn of the adjuster knob would only cause the blade to travel a fraction of that distance. This seems to be even more important with the BU planes.
I found another set of drawings for an adjuster and some very nice infill plane drawings at these two related sits. Note the author of the first one.
http://www.xmission.com/~jry/ww/tools/kingshott/panel.html
http://www.xmission.com/~jry/ww/tools/a13/a13.html
PS
I used my A6 on another project on Sunday and was blown away at its ability to handle tough figured wood. I has trying to joint some 9/4 tiger maple from rough sawn. Normally I would have used my LV BU smother with a jointer fence, but they where to wide for that set up. I squared one side to face by hand, and it was my new A6 that I used to finish and fine tune it. No light from under my square! I did 18 peices in under 2hr by hand, and they are like polished glass. The thing is I have not yet done my A6's fine tuning I talked about earlier. I want more planes like this! I did this while my wife (she's on night shifts at a big city hospital) slept.
Will
Are you sure, or am I missing something? Both sets of threads are the same 'hand', which means that they add-up. So the adjuster progresses the blade at the combined pitch (speed) of the two threads? That's why a single-thread adjuster is better - progresses at a lower speed. At least, that's what I figured out.
Jim Yeale's drawings are excellent (he's the author of both your links, I thought), and a great improvement on the rather sketchy Kingshott originals. Cameron should have that stuff on his site (if he doesn't already - Cam?)
Pleased you're so happy with the way your A6 performs. I am too. Early testing of my latest incarnations (the Chopper and Deco planes on my web site - new readers) tells me that they also do the business. I know that some people don't like very heavy planes (Larry W included), but I'm finding that the combination of mass, fabrication excellence (no chatter, smooth and precise adjuster travel, right posture and grip) and fine set-up tolerances does make smoothing by hand a pleasureable and effective activity. Working while your shift-worker sleeps is a bonus, eh!
Well done.
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 4/10/2006 8:25 am ET by Malcolm
I just tested and measured. We are both right. On the Shepherd adjuster the net displacement is 1.75 times the displacement of the primary. The adjuster on my LV shoulder plane only resulted 0.5 times net displacement for 1 unit of primary.
The LV is a low angle.
Damn! learned something today
> The adjuster on my LV shoulder plane only resulted 0.5 times net displacement for 1 unit of primary <
Presumeably because the threads are a combination of left and right hand? So as the coarser primary thread advances, the finer secondary thread, winding the other way but at a slower rate [edit - rate of advancement], partly negates it?
I'm shopping around for an instrument-makers tap and die set, with very fine threads, hoping to get the best of both in a single thread (and hence with minimum opportunity for backlash - a hint from Mr Kingshott).
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 4/13/2006 11:28 pm ET by Malcolm
"...I know that some people don't like very heavy planes (Larry W included)..."
Yeah, but I'm enjoying this thread anyway. :)
I even sent Wayne Anderson the most incredible piece of cocobolo plane wood we ever managed to get. My business partner is now sensitized to it and we can't use it in our shop anymore. A piece like that belongs in some really great planes and I know Wayne will turn it into a number of really nice tools.
I wonder if sensitivity to the more flamboyant exotics (cocobolo, andaman padauk, the various rosewoods) is age as much as exposure related?
The indian rosewood I'm using (cut into some today) affects me much more than I remember it affecting me when I first used it nearly 30 years ago, and I've only made a few cuts. Sanding dust is dynamite!
Lucky Wayne, eh!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Here is my Norris A6.
Very nice - great polish on the backiron (lever cap reflects well).
I notice you've left the cap screw at it's original length ... it seemed too long to me, and I took a piece off, which Ben noticed and commented on!
Are you happy with the way it has worked out? Have you considered getting your own ID engraved somewhere?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Thanks. The plane works well. It could be better. The orgional edge of the iron was not squar to the sides, the cap iron is about a 1/32 wider then the blade and keeps geting hung up on the sides and making it hard to adjust. I intend fix those up today or later this week. Once I clean these up I think it will do even better.
Is the cap scew too long? I never thought of it. Looking at it I can see that is far longer then it has to be. I 'll think about it.
Mext project is going to be the 11 S, I am assebling the materials now. Still need to source a lever cap. I have a Hock 2" blade for Krenov plane. It's short lengh may not be the best idea.
Another question for you. Do you use a CAD program? If so how hard are they to learn for this type of work. (I have a lot of post grad level math)
Will Graham
> Do you use a CAD program? <
No. I use a graphics package called CorelDraw (I think it's still called that!).
I've mainly used Corel (since the earliest iterations) as an illustrations and typography tool. The later versions can be used very like a CAD application, with high levels of precision. It is an easy way to noodle around with various shape options, while staying within precise limits.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Here's an 11-S type plane from 150 years or so back. One of the first ever Spiers planes.By the way I've now put some side template diagrams for a couple of Spiers and Norris panel planes as well as a 25-1/2" Norris jointer on the Handplane Central site. One day I'll get around to doing full and proper plans but for now I'll post various drawings when I can.
Handplane Central
Ooops! Forgot to add that that's a nice looking plane, Will.Also the smaller version of the adjuster that's used in the low angle planes is also known as a "Norris type". Banjo's for the larger type, block and pin for the smaller.
Handplane Central
Nothing new under the sun, eh Cameron?
My 11S will aim to be hand-friendly - it increasingly seems to me that there are few technical improvements to make (Philip's adjustable mouth approach notwithstanding) with infill planes, but there is potential to improve useability, mainly through refining the shape and by using elite materials and high craftsmanship.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Well the Holtey is much superior to the Spiers, both in materials and craftsmanship. Still, there's a lot to like about the Spiers.Adjustable mouth sounds good!
Handplane Central
Will
I'm at work so can do this - I'll attach to this post an A3 page of design sketches that I've been noodling with over the past few days. Version 3 is the one I'm going to base a short production run around. I'll post them full size - if you want to print them you'll need a printer that can produce A3 sheets.
Cheers
Malcolm
Edit: big jpg! - happy to email to anyone if that's better. Will also put on web site tonight. email [email protected]
Edited 3/30/2006 6:45 pm ET by Malcolm2
Thanks. I am looking it over now. Cool.
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