Hi,
I’m relatively new to woodworking and planning a small deck with French Doors leading to it. I have built several tables and a woodworking bench, as well as trimming out my small home in Cedar wainscoting and Hickory trim around doors and windows. I have access to most of the power tools that I have needed. My skills are improving with each project. I now want to build the 60″ French Doors, with 6 lights each, similar to the attached pic, in Hickory as well.
I have looked at a lot of doors and the project doesn’t seem daunting, though certainly challenging. The only real concern I have is the recommended mortise and tenon joinery which seems to be common. This surely isn’t the project to learn that fine art.
My question: Is the Festool Domino Joinery suitable for this project? I have studied as much as I have found about the product online, but I’m concerned whether it’s adequate for this scale project.
All help appreciated.
Jerry
Replies
Harder Than You Might Think
Building a simple pair of exterior doors is far from simple. "French" doors - actually divided light doors - are also difficult. Hickory complicates things as it is a terrible wood to put to the weather.
Then there is the frame or jamb, hardware and weatherstrip. I have counseled hundreds over the years that it is far better to have a professional build the doors of your choosing. Doors quite simply, have to perform. All day. Every Day. Cold and hot, wet and dry. They have to work, or they will be constant source of frustration and aggravation.
Short list includes: Mortise and tenon with cope and stick joinery - how will you do this so it will accommodate glass?
Insulated glass must meet code, spacers are about 7/16" wide , and will hang out past the sticking - how do you deal with this?
What sealant to use for the glass?
What weatherstripping will you use?
What is the section of the jamb - sill, head, sides?
What hardware do you want?
Will the hinges carry the added weight of hardwood doors?
I am not trying to be a pessimist, but I have seen a lot of failed door attempts over the last 40 years, and none are pretty. Hire a professional.
Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Buy a custom door.
I'd second Dave's comments. Go take a look at the offerings from Pella, Marvin, Andersen, Loewen and many other manufacturers of wood windows and doors. Most of their catalogs are filled with details about their profiles and construction details. French doors are not easy to build. Even the hardware with flush bolts and latching is not easy to install or operate. The Gone with the Wind image of pulling open both leafs of a french doors with one grand gesture is not what most people end up with.
I know doors from these companies are expensive, but they are expensive for a reason. I think it would be enough of a challenge just to install a manufactured french door. There are always surprises. Pay particular attention to the sill. In the end buying a French door, their close cousins the terrace door or even a custom French door in some exotic wood will probably be far cheaper and less frustrating than crafting your own.
Peter
I Disagree...
Peter -I disagree. The grand gesture is more like Audrey Hepburn in "Roman Holiday". Or at least that is the image I use with my customers to try to get them to anticipate hardware function.
Today, that is only possible with multipoint latching or paired cremone bolts. Paired cremones are the medevil version of modern multipoints.
I suggest employing a local woodworker for the paired doors. I like to see them gainfully employed. You are right, Pella et all are somewhat expensive, but not because they are good. They are expensive because of way wood doors and windows are marketed in this country thru a multi-step distribution system. The doors are quite poorly made of mediocre to inappropriate materials. They will soon be made In China or some other offshore location.
In fact, the modern doors from BigDoorCo require multipoint latches to help them stay closed under wind pressure. The composite materials in the stiles lack the strength of real wood and will easily bow under pressure. Add in the deisre for taller doors, and they become a must have.
An experienced local woodworker will determine better what is needed and how best to acheive those goals. Your money will fuel the local economy and return to you in some manner. You will get much more door for your money without the parasitic distributors in the middle. Just be sure to use someone that has experience in these types of doors.
Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
It's all local.
Dave, I know. Doors are your business. I think I did say ...and many other smaller manufacturer's. Some of the manufacturers I mentioned are local to where I am in Minnesota. And sometimes I think aluminum clad wood windows aren't a bad option. Although Canadian, I was pretty impressed with the custom Loewen doors that were installed on a recent house project. Some people and companies, I assume you among them are still making strong, well crafted doors in this country.
I also think the large companies offer a resource for details on profiles of heads, jambs and sills of their products. As you know there are a lot of pieces and scaled drawings on their web site offer a starting place for those wanting to make their own. Marvin used to show wood profiles.
I find French doors a mistake in lots of places. People lost in the dream of the grand opening don't think about what the doors will hit or where they will stand when opened. Fewer and fewer houses are being built with rooms that rival the halls of Versailles. That is why I suggested looking at the terrace door option where one leaf folds back on the other.
Your doors look beautiful. Maybe, if the economy turns around we'll have a chance to spec one.
Peter
Uphill
Well, it is an uphill battle to try to turn the buying public from what is everpresent and easy. The quality of our work - or other shops like us that specialize in this work - is easily superior. Superior due to the pride in the work and this is our living type thing, but also that mass manufacturers make such a lousy product. They do design for failure and short term profit. We warranty our exterior doors for 5 years - longer than 98% of anyone else that has a warranty, but I fully expect any of our doors to last 100 years or longer.
I have a print advertisement from one BigDoorCo that shows a picture of their cope and stick joinery, with their identification of a 1/16" gap, and they brag about how that gap - they call it paper thin!- is so much better than the 1/2" that other companies have(!?!). With an open joint, either 1/16" or 1/2" is terrible - a complete failure to produce a sound joint that will last in the real world. No such thing as a little dead - and no such thing as an acceptable gap in joinery. By showing us - the consumer - that gap, they are training us to accept such gargbage. Not only accept it, but to think it is desirable! Un-friggin-beleivable!!!
There was a huge class action suit some years ago where BigWindowCo used a wood preservative that actually accelerated rot in wood. The use of a preservative already admits to using a less than satisfactory wood in the first place, with the preservative as a patch. The felt the cost of litigation was offset by the profit from what they were making.
European door and window manufacturers have much longer views on their products, and 50 years life is a design minimum for wood windows. Yes, they cost more. But just as a BigBoxFurniture customer would be shocked at the price of a studio maker's dining table, it is only because they have been taught to consume and throw away, not to be selective and use their purchases to enhance their community.
Had window companies not built for failure (10-15 years is considered long in their industry) for the last 60 years, we would have more than enough good timber to build decent windows and doors without using foreign species. The fact that all those forests fell for disposable millwork is a shame.
I'll step off the soap box now....
Unfortunate
The law suite you are talking about I believe was against Marvin Windows. A preservative supplier, misrepresented what they were selling and for whatever reason there product enhanced decay rather than prevent it. Who's fault is that? The story we were told by the window reps is that it devastated the owners of the company when the fault was discovered. Marvin's owners said said they were responsible and they would replace the defective windows no matter the cost, even before they understood the cause of the problem. It is, or was a family held corporation who, like you felt a commitment to the quality of what they built. Perhaps the lawsuit was about who in the end holds the greatest portion of the liability.
It is wrong to try and tarnish all "BigWindowCo's" products with incidental issues. There is a wide range of quality within some of these large companies and in the end you get what you pay for. People are asked to choose between granite counter tops, a hot tub or cheaper windows that make it all affordable. It is not surprising they accept compromise. Big companies have to compete and have bought up smaller companies making products they can sell to people willing to make a compromise under one brand.
Peter
Correct, but
I agree that I am a cynic when it comes to BigDoorCo's products. Yes, there are some better companies than others, but very few are good, and fewer make excellent products. Compare the US standard offerings with European timber built tilt and turn windows, and also compare the installation, weatherizing and trimming of those windows. A whole different world. Why?
I am not privy to the feelings of the corporate family of Marvin, but the provider of the failed preservative - PPG - and Marvin are still litigating. Many people never got refunds or rebates since they were completley unaware of the lawsuit. If they were aware, they needed receipts, etc. and removal, install, and paint were not paid for in most cases. Marvin may have felt very bad, but that type of practice continues today with minimal and inappropriate species, bad details and poor construction. The current marketing fluff centers on words like "Forever" and "Lifetime" and other undefined, emotion based triggers.
The public is somewhere between ignorant and deceived, so they can not make good decisions. At any rate, the choice is between bad and worse, and the sentiment - 'damn, I want that hot tub...' always wins anyway. Can I tell you how many times I have heard 'we are only gonna be in the place for a few years, sell it at 30% profit ands then move on". And they do.
The whole reminds me of some late night TV product that is 12 tools in one - wrench, screwdriver, can opener, lug wrench and toenail clipper - with a glass cutter wheel on one end. It certainly is 12 tools, but is made so poorly as to not be worthwhile at any one of those 12 tasks, much less all of them. The windows and doors of modern US production are alll geared trowards some arbitrary price point and have nothing to do with a quality product except as marketing filler. If American windows and doors were the airline industry, there would be no commercial flight.
Like I say, I am cynical.
Jerry,
I've installed hundreds of doors, many of them from scratch and quite a number over $5,000 for the door alone. It is a very difficult task, but for reasons you might not appreciate. I think most woodworkers could build a door; at least a reasonable facsimile. However, an exterior door (in order to function well thermally) needs all kinds of interlocking weather-stripping, sills, and related. Sure, you can go cheap but you'll pay for that choice of the long-haul. If you're serious about making a quality door you need to get all of those various pieces of hardware selected and ordered so you can mortise them all in having sized the various parts correctly. They are expensive. There are some excellent products out there but they have to work as a whole and with your door. For example, there are "sills" that fold down from inside a mortise and create a "sill-free"entry. Custom doors usually deserve such efforts. It takes a lot of time to sort that all out and install the parts in the door and the jamb. The glass is important too and you'll pay dearly for that.
Do not use hickory. Very low rot resistance and poor response to changes in moisture. Material selection (and sawn character) is very important to the long-term (and in some areas - short term) performance of your door.
In short, there's a lot of expense in a custom door and a lot of time. In a french door, double that factor. In terms of difficultly, done correctly it's just about as difficult a task as one can find in woodworking.
Art
Would white oak be a better choice?
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled