Replies

1. 
   AzDiscDog | Apr 16, 2007 10:41pm | #1

   Sarge,

   Great post! I also loved the craps metaphor, as I'm (former) player myself.

   Glad to hear that you're happy with your PSI and that it's working well for you. I like the central placement of your DC, and it gave me a couple of ideas for what I could do with mine once I get it.

   Glen

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 17, 2007 12:48am | #2

   "I also loved the craps metaphor, as I'm (former) player myself."  Glad someone understood it!  Sarge had me buffaloed with that one, was thinking he'd celebrated his new DC just a bit too much. ROFL!

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   Edited 4/16/2007 5:53 pm by forestgirl

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 17, 2007 07:49am | #5

   Morning FG..

   "ya can take the man out of a casino, but ya can't take the casino out of a man"..  jt 

   Sorry to have baffled ya. Just think what my lovely goes through on a daily basis. ha.. ha...

   Highest regards to the "Lady of the Forest"...

   Sarge.. jt

2. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 17, 2007 07:44am | #4

   Morning AD...

   If you have specific questions when you go seriously shopping, post or e-mail as I should have a much better handle on the machine in a few weeks.

   I haven't found anything to complain about yet with the exception of 8 little plastic plugs that you insert on top of the impeller casing to plug the holes for where a larger motor would be anchored. This should be so simple but whoever designed them must have made a wrong turn at the last traffic light on his way to work after attaining a degree in agricultural engineering. Somehow he ended up at the work-place for mechanical engineers. ha.. ha...

   And stay out of those casino's next door in New Mexico. Less than 1/2 of 1% of those that go in one have no clue what it takes to win. Contrarily, they go looking for action as their goal and play and play and play till the house advantage coupled with their own lack of discipline sends them home broke.

   "The difference between a professional and an amateur is the amateur doesn't know when to quit when either ahead or behind".. John Patrick

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt 

    

1. 
   AzDiscDog | Apr 17, 2007 05:32pm | #8

   I think I'm going to have to update my handle one of these days. It comes from a previous life when I lived in AZ and played frisbee with my pups. I never made it "big" by any means, but I had a blast playing with some top notch folk over in Cali. Anyway, I'm in KS now, so I have to worry about the riverboat casinos in MO instead of the NM & AZ tribal casinos. Unfortunately, my craps playing was about as good as my disc dog'n so I've passed up on that life too.I do better at woodworking. Honestly. I do. Please believe me. ;-)I think I would have reached for the RTV if the plastic plugs weren't working for me. I have slowly become a disciple of RTV for those types of situations. Invariably, it's easier to make my own plug with a simple squeeze than to curse for hours.Thanks again for the feedback and keeping it light! Much easier than figuring the odds on 6 & 9. ;-)Glen

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 17, 2007 06:24pm | #9

   Morning Kansas Dog.. :>)

   I threw the plastic plugs away after the first broke inserting them in the hole. The holes got silicone glued along with every major seam and joint on the entire system from the cyclone all the way to the individual machine ports. Wasn't stingy on aluminum foiled and standard duct tape either as any form of potential leak was addressed before the fact.

   If ya gonna do it... do it right! ha.. ha...

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

   Edited 4/17/2007 11:25 am ET by SARGEgrinder47

1. 
   Bruce B. | Apr 18, 2007 08:11pm | #10

   Good afternoon Sarge,

   I think you will be very happy with your PennState system. I bought mine a couple of years ago and it works great. I have the "Tempest" series with the 12" steel impeller and the .5 micron cartridge filters. I chose the PennState system based on price, reviews/tests and the fact that the inlet is on the left side which was best for my layout. Another consideration was the height as I only have a little over 7'. I still had to cut out about 6" from the fiberboard containers and minimize the flex connecting them. My shop (aka "Mantown") is 11' wide by 22' long so I only needed 2 drops on each wall. The people at PennState were good to deal with, the unit had slight damage to the top of the cyclone wich was easily fixed. Since I had to remove the impeller to fix it I was surprised at how easily the retaining bolt came out. I re-installed it with some loc-tite. (I did call them to let them know they should consider using loc-tite or a lock nut on that critical fastener). Overall, I would rate it with 4 1/2 stars. Ayclone system combined with an air filter will dramatically improve the air quality in your shop. Since I mostly make sawdust this sytem really helps to keep it one place !

   Cheers,

   Bruce

2. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 19, 2007 07:57am | #11

   Morning Bruce..

   They have up-graded the older cyclone series to the Tempest S series. The 2 1/2 HP has a 14" impeller and all S series now have an aluminum 8 fin blades. They added a neutral vane also which extends to the edge of the outer arc of the impeller fan blades. This one sits about 92" tall as I cut off a couple of inches of the flex pipe that connects the base of the cone to the large particle bin.

   Interesting that you mentioned the height being a factor. I got an e-mail from Inkman inquiring about the PS and his shop is in a basement with a dropped ceiling. He was concerned that if he removed a panel from it so the motor could sit above the drop tiles, it would not get enough air to cool it.

   The new Tempest S motors have some healthy fins to dissipate heat and the air in-let is at the base of the motor cap with air being drawn in from below. I don't think it would pose a problem of over-heat in that case. I highly doubt you would run one continually in most of our non commercial shops to create that scenario to begin with. 

   Just to be on the safe side you could just put a small desk type fan on top of the impeller casing pointed at those air inlets. Even though I don't feel it necessary, taking out a low cost insurance policy to hedge should erase any doubt!

   Thanks for your in-put on the subject. All in-put is certainly welcome...

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

3. 
   dgreen | Apr 19, 2007 11:44am | #13

   I have the 3 horse Tempest with the 14" impeller, I raised it enought to fit a 42 gallon rubbermaid can underneath. I cut out the lid to fit the flange that came with the DC. I'm a one man production shop and the extra capacity has been welcome. I still have to empty the can a couple times a week. 3 years and knock on wood no problems. I' just tickled with the performance. I don't own my building so I went with 4" flex everywhere, no problems. With your layout you will have super collection. Like you I used extra silicone when assembling. I used 4 tubes on the cyclone alone. It is seriously gookumputtied and has been leak free. I think you will be very happy with your machine. Mine also has the neutral vane.------------------------------------

   It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore

4. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 19, 2007 06:38pm | #15

   Morning DG...

   Thanks for the in-put! I think that if you are getting satisfactory results with your set-up on the same machine using 4" flex pipe. Indeed I should get the performance I expected and maybe more as I used about 10' of smooth walled 6" PVC from the machine to an outer wall, then 6" clear flex for another 10' that reaches and will connect directly to each machine which has been modified to accept 6" ports. No drop-offs or major bends from the end of the quick connect PVC outlet forward to the machine.

   I have pretty smooth silicone beads as I have some experience caulking, but guppy-gumpy isn't going to affect what you actually achieved by sealing it. Hopefully Martha Stewart won't be dropping by for a visual inspection for "aesthetic caulk beading"! ha.. ha...

   I will probably wrap a copper wire around the PVC and connect it to the rigid wire in that 6" flex pipe which is self grounding to ground the entire run. I will know if static electricity builds in that pipe by the week-end and even if it doesn't in my climate, may do it anyway as I try not to leave any stones un-turned before the fact.

   Thanks again and I would gamble and put my money on the fact that you are right in your evaluation...

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

5. 
   BG | Apr 20, 2007 12:18am | #16

   Sarge,

   Let me pick your brain. The issue I'm trying to get a grip on is centralized verses decentralized DC.  As I sit here reading you and others experiences/solutions and take a quick look at prices for both DC's and piping, I'm beginning to think a few smaller units close to the equipment may be less expensive and maybe as effective as a big centralized system. 

   Basically lots of dust comes from TS, jointer, planer and lathe. The BS, router table, chop saw, etc. don't have the same CFM requirements...and don't respond as well to DC anyhow. The price point of single or one and a half hp units is fairly low and only a minimum of piping would be required. I'm wondering if I had two or three smaller units that could meet or exceed the requirements of the big machinery and then a few feet away support the other power equipment that this may be a cost effective solution? Do you have any thought on this? 

6. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 20, 2007 07:49am | #17

   Morning BC...

   Well BC, do you have an accomplice operating in my "hood" that has been peaking at my notes or did you just think of this on your own? If the latter.. congratulations on lighting a small candle that could evolve into a roaring flame that possibly might brighten things considerably.

   When I purchased the larger unit, I could have sold my current little DC with an excellent record that has a cyclone can attached on the used market price of around $100-$125. The 4" hose and connections are worth more than that but the market wouldn't tolerate a higher asking price. So...... do I just retire it to a corner to collect dust or take the beating on what I can get as to what it is worth to me in true value?

   If you were a fight promoter and had a "light-weight" fighter that has exceptional talent and skill, you don't retire him because he can't match up with "heavy-weights". You match him up in a "light-weight" field where he has potential to be a shining star in that class.

   So.. a larger system doesn't necessarily mean the current system will be given a Rolex and retired as useless or obsolete. Could we say just given a new assignment that involves duties it is more capable of handling in lieu of it's size.

   Sitting in a corner collecting dust it will be, but ................. connected to a 20A circuit and ask to produce as usual!

   So... yeah, I have thoughts on this. But.. that is all I am saying at the moment. In the next few days I will post some pics that will clarify my stand farther on your question. Sometimes a picture is worth thousand words. Sometimes.... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Film and regards at 11 PM...

   Sarge.. jt

    

   Edited 4/20/2007 12:54 am ET by SARGEgrinder47

   Edited 4/20/2007 12:56 am ET by SARGEgrinder47

7. 
   AzDiscDog | Apr 20, 2007 06:05pm | #18

   Hi BG,I think there's another factor you should consider -- filtration of the fine dust particles. A lot of the inexpensive DCs have horrible 30 micron filtration. You'll end up pushing the nastiest stuff right back into your shop environment unless you can vent directly outside.If I recall correctly, I believe Sarge picked up the PSI with the cannister filters *and* he has it set up to vent directly outside. I think he has flex hose to switch between the two. Hopefully he'll correct me if I'm wrong.In my case, filtration is the primary reason why I'm looking at a DC. I decided to go with a cyclone because the cost of a cyclone with filters was very comparable to a single stage DC with after-market filters.Glen

8. 
   alanplanesaw | Apr 21, 2007 11:52pm | #27

   Sarge,

   What is the lowest ceiling I could have and still use the unit you are describing?

   Thanks,

   Alan - planesaw

9. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 22, 2007 09:27am | #28

   Morning Alan...

   The Penn State info on-line says it sits 94" and it would if you use a full 12" distance between the bottom of the cone to the top of the large particle can. But... you can cheat and squeeze down. Mine now sits 88" by cutting the distance I mentioned to 6" where it calls for 12".

   I can't visualize that distance would make a difference as it it nothing more than a straight drop. What I would be skeptical of is some of the systems designed for low ceilings. You can squeeze several inches off total height by shortening that drop as I mentioned, but the quickest way to do it is to shorten the cone itself and that's how most of those offered for low ceiling do it.

   IMO... when you start tinkering with cone height, you might be altering cyclonic action by doing so. A perfect ratio is a 6:1 taper to the bottom of cone. Shortening it makes that difficult and cyclonic action is reduced as I see it.

   As too how low, 88" at minumum, but..  have you considered just how high you can go by cutting a hole in the ceiling for a motor to go up and through?

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

   Edited 4/22/2007 2:29 am ET by SARGEgrinder47

10. 
    alanplanesaw | Apr 22, 2007 02:52pm | #29

    Sarge,

    I have 93" so I don't think I would need to do the hole in the ceiling, but, yes, I had already decided I would do that if I needed to.  Don't know when I'll get a cyclone, but thought I would check and see what the functional height requirement would be.

    Thanks,

    Alan - planesaw

11. 
    SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 22, 2007 03:48pm | #30

    Morning again Alan...

    You sound "good to go". I believe that all the cyclones I looked at have a fairly long drop from the cone to chip can, so a little modification should get you where you need to be.

    I got an e-mail from Tim (Inkman) expressing the same concern as he has a drop ceiling, but can take out a ceiling tile easily. His concern was would the motor get enough air to keep it cool.

    I don't think that is a major concern for most in that scenario. On the PS the air inlet for the motor is about 4" from the top of the motor casing and it receives air from below where is has some healthy dissipation fins to aid cooling. It could be monitored early on and if over-heating even hinted at rearing it's ugly head, a quick trip to the Box stores or Office supply could produce a solution with a very small desk type fan that could be mounted on top blowing up.

    Good luck when you go shopping...

    Sarge.. jt

12. 
    alanplanesaw | Apr 22, 2007 08:50pm | #31

    Sarge,

    Unfortunately mine is not a dropped ceiling.  I live in a split-level with the lower part being a touch shorter than a full 8 ft.  But, I would have about six to eight inches up between the joists if I was desparate.

    Alan - planesaw

13. 
    Bruce B. | Apr 24, 2007 07:59pm | #37

    Good afternoon Planesaw,

    RE: Ceiling ht. My PennState is installed with just 84 1/2" ceiling ht. I cut down the fiberboard drums (very easy) and shortened the flex connections to make it work. You just need to get a little creative.

    Good Luck,

    Bruce

14. 
    Glaucon | Apr 24, 2007 08:31pm | #38

    How does the "low profile" system work? Which PS model are you using? What(if any) are the drawbacks? How often do you need to empty the barrel?Thanks,Glaucon

    If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

15. 
    Bruce B. | Apr 25, 2007 01:41pm | #41

    Good morning Glaucon,

    The system works great. The only drawback is having to empty the barrel more often and this only an issue when using the planer. Also, the inlet connection on the drum is offset from center to push the barrel into the corner. I removed about 6" from the chip drum (very easy to do) and about 4" from the dust drum. Total installed height is about 83 1/2", leaving about an 1" clearance to the ceiling. It is a "Tempest 2HP, 12" Impeller with 2- .5 micron cartridge filter. Total installed cost approximately $1,200. Shop clean up and knockdown now only takes 20 minutes. It was tough to spend the money on something that didn't actually cut or machine wood (I'm a toolaholic) but it was the right thing to do.

    Cheers,

    Bruce 

16. 
    Glaucon | Apr 25, 2007 04:14pm | #42

    Thanks Bruce. Any down side in your mind to doing the 2 hp instead of 3 hp?Glaucon

    If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

17. 
    SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 25, 2007 05:49pm | #43

    Morning Gluacon...

    Sorry to butt in.. but I will add that Bruce's has a 2 HP as opposed to 2 1/2 HP on the newer Tempest 1425 S. And the newer version has 8 aluminum fins with 14" impeller.

    I would base the HP on how long of a run you intend. I knew in advance I would only run a maximum of around 20' as to the way I was set up. It turned out to be 23' to my BS, which is the longest distance of any machine in that run. I also changed the ports on the TS, jointer and planer to 6" so I could run 6" direct to machine from cyclone without reduction. If I had a longer run, I would have paid the $150 extra and got the 3 1/2 HP with a 15" impeller, but felt it wasn't needed in my set-up as is..

    On the BS, as you know the 4" port is very efficient on your SC. So.. I left it 4" with the 6" direct drive hose coming directly to it. But... I added a Y junction by using a 6"-4" reducer to reduce down to the 4" Y plastic fitting. The Y has a 4" opening to receive the reduced 6"-4" reducer sleeve. Then a secondary 2" line off of it to form the Y. The 4" goes to the existing port and I ran a 2 1/2" flex pipe (which fits perfectly inside the plastic 2" fitting coming off the 4") over the bearing casing.. up the back-beam and back across the upper case housing.. and down to a dust hood just over the upper bearings.

    I tested it last night and I will say that a Georgia Tech engineer couldn't have made a better guess in this case. I got lucky as it turned out to be a match "made in heaven" and as a great American says, "she'll get er done"! So... "who ya gonna call"?

     Dust-busters... ha.. ha.. ha..ha.ha..

    Sarge.. jt 

    Edited 4/25/2007 10:52 am ET by SARGEgrinder47

    
18. 
    Glaucon | Apr 25, 2007 07:02pm | #44

    Ha!Thanks for the info and the smile, Sarge,Glaucon

    If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

19. 
    SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 26, 2007 08:22am | #47

    My treat, Glaucon. And if you or your associates happen to run any "Two for the price of One Stents or By-passes", don't hesitate to e-mail me a re-deemable coupon! :>)

    Regards...

    Sarge.. jt

20. 
    Bruce B. | Apr 25, 2007 08:11pm | #45

    Good afternoon Sarge,

    I'm glad to see that your new DC works as promised/expected. Too many things don't these days. And you are absolutely correct about the HP on my "Tradtional series. If I were doing it today I would also go with the newer "S" series. More suction, bigger piping inlet, and probably a little quieter with the lighter, more efficient aluminum impeller. Having more power and suction than you need now gives the ability to add longer runs and possibly run more than one machine at a time. Now that's a BS !

    It appears I might be guilty of hijacking your thread a bit here and if so I apologize for being rude. I'M still learning the in's and out's of the forum.

    As promised, here are pics of my "mobile" shop. It should stay fairly clean for a while as golf season has finally arrived here in the frozen north.

    Cheers,

    Bruce

     

    
21. 
    SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 26, 2007 08:17am | #46

    Morning Bruce..

    Don't lose any sleep about hi-jacking the thread Bruce, if it's useful information.. as I see tbe world turn,  get it out there and don't be shy about doing it. Any tid-bit of info might benefit someone reading these things.

    That's an excellent job of using what ya been given in that shop. You have left yourself plenty of elbow room in the center that can be used in  a multitude of ways.

    Regards...

    Sarge.. jt

22. 
    forestgirl | Apr 26, 2007 08:19pm | #48

    Hiya, Sarge.  Just saw the picture of the BS collector above the table.  I used to have a vac attachment taped on too, kinda awkward.  Then,  when I got my router table fence w/vac, I figured out this would work:

    View Image 

    It's the behind-the-fence, magnetically mounted dust chute for the Veritas fence.  Can't tell from your pic if it would work on  your saw, but it's really nice, cause it slides up and down with the guard.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

23. 
    SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 27, 2007 12:58am | #49

    Afternoon Jamie...

    Yep.. it would work indeed as I have already been scouring around for a replacement as the vac attachment fans out to wide. I modified it on my smaller BS to fit around nooks and crevices, but that "puppy" you posted would be ultimate with a magnet.

    I do have some magnets and think I will find some type of hood that nature. What I like about yours is it already has the 2 1/2" throat reciever attached. I can do that with even a plastic tupper-ware box of various sizes, but it's certainly a PITA.

    I assume you can purchase that item singularly from LV. If so, I do believe it might be wise just to call them tomorrow and get one moving my way so I can move on the the next obstacle. Even though I'm not sure I would be a content camper if there weren't obstacles to hurdle. Kind of keeps things interesting.

    Thanks as I think I will jump on that little fella if they sell it separate. If not I'll just improvise as usual. ha.. ha...

    Regards...

    Sarge.. jt

24. 
    forestgirl | Apr 27, 2007 05:38am | #50

    Yep, it's a sep. item.  Not too expen.  Can't type much tonite, you can call - they will help.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

25. 
    SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 27, 2007 08:13am | #51

    Thanks FG..

    Regards...

    Sarge.. jt

26. 
    AzDiscDog | Apr 27, 2007 05:15pm | #52

    "Even though I'm not sure I would be a content camper if there weren't obstacles to hurdle. Kind of keeps things interesting."That gave me a good laugh this morning. Especially since I was planning out the next months worth of projects and whether or not I should ask my cousin to help out on some of the projects. Gee, ask for help or not. Some days that's actually a tough one, I'm afraid.Glen

27. 
    Bruce B. | Apr 27, 2007 07:44pm | #53

    Good afternoon FG,

    What a great idea ! If I understand you correctly, that piece came with your new LV router fence and is available seperately. (and I thought I had their catalog memorized !). I have been very happy with their products. Do you still hook up your DC to the port under the table ? Thanks for the tip.

    Cheers,

    Bruce

28. 
    forestgirl | Apr 27, 2007 08:06pm | #54

    Bruce, the dust chute is an add-on, see here.   Under-table DC is very necessary, no maatter how good the fence DC is.

    forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

    Edited 4/30/2007 1:27 pm by forestgirl

29. 
    Bruce B. | Apr 27, 2007 08:31pm | #55

    Thanks for the link. You are right about the dollar, but their stuff is almost always worth it. Hope you are feeling better (I have been reading the thread about PC viruses, now I'm afraid to leave my home PC plugged in, let alone turn it on !).

    Enjoy the weekend,

    Bruce

30. 
    forestgirl | Apr 28, 2007 02:13am | #56

    [knocking on a huge pile of wood] -- in nearly 12 years of surfing the web, I've never had a virus problem.  Get good software protection, set it up for automatic daily updating, and be extremely careful about emails.  Scan other people's discs before opening them on your computer.  Ditto - w/ spyware (daily updates; scan periodically). 

    Probably backing up dadta is the most importana yhing for all of us to do.  I'm very bad about that. usb FLASH DRIVES MAKE IT MUCH EASIER.

     

    [Typing w/ 1 paw sucks; plz 4give typos]

    forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

    Edited 4/27/2007 7:13 pm by forestgirl

31. 
    Bruce B. | Apr 30, 2007 07:35pm | #57

    Good afternoon FG,

    Hope you are feeling better. I was checking out the LV 2006/2007 catalog this weekend for future wish list purchases and saw the magnetic dust fitting and was pleased to see the price was $25.50. Looks like they tricked you with that little Canadian flag. I almost canceled an order recently because I thought they had jacked up their prices until I realized the prices were Canadian, not U.S.

    BTW, I bet you can type faster w/one hand than I can with two !

    Take care,

    Bruce

32. 
    forestgirl | Apr 30, 2007 08:22pm | #58

    Hmmmmm, my cookies must be messed up.  Of course, I usually browse in US dollars!   Funny.  A relief though, I thought something drastic had happened.

    Don't known about that typing comparison.  I'm realllllly slow with one hand!  Back to 2 now though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

33. 
    alanplanesaw | Apr 25, 2007 12:53am | #39

    I like thinking outside the circle.

    alan - planesaw

2. 
   mapleman | Apr 17, 2007 06:04am | #3

   Sarge,

   I always love reading your posts. No bull, straight to the point. I too am looking at making a cyclone purchase in the next few months, and have been trying to make heads or tails out of the mess of information on different brands. Quite a few people here made some disparaging comments about the Penn State stuff a few months ago, so I had kind of dropped them from the running, so to speak. I will definitely put them back in the mix when it comes time to buy.

   By the way, I called your friends at Wilke machinery to order one of those Yorkcraft 20" planers today. Out of stock for "several" months. And they can't even guess how long the several will be. Same with the 15" planer and I believe he said the 12" jointer as well. They are literally on the "slow boat from China". Ha Ha.

   Oh well, easy come, easy go.

   Lee

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 17, 2007 08:08am | #6

   Morning Lee..

   As stated, I haven't found any problems yet for my set-up. If I do, I will post them as this is not like taking a chance on a small tool purchase for most of us. It's an investment and you want to be sure you get every bang you can out of your buck!

   Wilke was out of the 15" planers (and not a surprise at the price of the Yorkcraft line) when I was shopping. I have some experience with importing from over there from my part time work. These things come from Taiwan and it is difficult to get a handle on exactly when a manufacturer will crate them and put them on a boat regardless of when he promises to do so. It is also difficult to track a route used by the ship owners as they may stop in several ports to drop off or pick up cargo to fill a hole. Then you have customs to deal with on the West Coast and this is very un-predictable as they are under-manned, especially since 9/11/02.

   So.... the only re-course of quoting an ETA is based on average time from previous track record. On average.. if it has been taking 6 months all told, then you quote 6 months with "give or take" as your out as there is no way to be absolutely certain in this arena.

   H*ll, a Japanese sub that doesn't realize WW II is over could sink the ship your jointer or planer is on. Anything and all things are possible, that's for sure! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

1. 
   mapleman | Apr 17, 2007 04:50pm | #7

   Sarge,

    Japanese sub that doesn't realize WW II is over could sink the ship your jointer or planer is on

   I almost spit coffee on the computer when I read that!

   Have a good day Sarge, and keep those reviews for the working class coming.

   Lee

3. 
   loucarabasi | Apr 19, 2007 11:25am | #12

   Sarge, I happen to have been a craps dealer in AC back in 89. Great game I actually built a full size 10ft table about 13 years ago. my brother was a dealer too. We have manys game still to this day(it definitly helps with two dealers the only problem is you never get to play)Its good to be the house though!!!(lotta fun) We play like poker with a time constriant. We go for say 30 minutes and when you crap out who ever has the most chips at the end gets the pot. We'd Love to have you over, but I see you are from VA.  Where do you play in VA?

   Was the other collector an Oneida? I just bought the pro 2000. for my new shop. I have a cabinet shop so I do use it to make money. I just hope it has plenty of suction!

   Lou

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 19, 2007 06:14pm | #14

   Morning Lou..

    

   Actually I'm from and live just outside Atlanta. I played in AC from about 83' till 89'-90' when Biloxi opened up. After Katrina I seldom play as I got involved with sports. Your name seems familiar for whatever reason. By chance did you used to post on the John Patrick web-site at one time? Just curious.

   As to the Oneida 2000, I think the 2000 series is their 2 HP Gorilla? From what I have seen of most of these cyclones the basic designs are the same. I see some tweaking off that basic design, much as you would do with an engine to squeeze out an extra burst of get-up and go, but I can't see the price structure differences reflected in what appears to be actually accomplished by the tweaking.

   As long as you have a neutral vane that extends to basically the center of the clone.. a cone taper of somewhere around 6:1 and not altering that badly to get it to fit under a roof.. good filters.. well sealed.. I think most are capable.

    I think the major dis-appointment for a purchaser is not facing reality and expecting out-standing results with extremely long runs and excessive drop offs that exceed what the machine is capable of giving with a fixed HP.. impeller size and it's actual aero-dynamic design.

   In other words if you related to purchase of a band-saw.. someone that knows they need 12" re-saw purchases a standard 14" BS. Then they add a riser.. with too little HP they add a larger motor.. with improper guides for that operation, they add new roller guides and then discover the spring on the saw is under-matched for larger blades.. change that also.

   They end up with as much or more than if they would have purchased a larger BS already suited for what they have spent extra effort and money to achieve, knowing it was too small if they did their home-work before the purchase was made. Reality hurts both mentally and in the pocket-book sometimes. ha.. ha...

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

4. 
   riethoven | Apr 20, 2007 06:31pm | #19

   Sarge,

   Your install looks great. Do you prepare a lot of solid stock? If so, I think you will find that you are emptying that little bucket a lot. It looks like you have a height restriction.

   I do mostly solid wood work and prepare all the stock by face jointing then planing. I am sure you know that a couple hundred board feet of stock can make a lot of shaving. I have heard that shavings take up 10 time the space of solid wood. I have a 3HP drum top collector that I want to use with a cyclone, but I am leaning towards putting the cyclone and blower outside of the shop in a small shed with a return air so I don't lose all my heat. That way I don't have to deal with the dust collector taking up space in my small shop and there is less noise because the blower is outside.

   Regarding the efficiency of cyclone separators, I am sure that computer models used in designing separators have allowed manufacturers to make more efficient collectors but I think any gains are very incremental. So maybe one brand bet 98% of solid so you are only sending the smallest particles to the filter then another brand my be 99% efficient. Cyclone separators have been around for a long time and I am sure the designs have been maximized years ago.

   Regarding CFMs they are very important, but FPM (feet per minute) is also very important. I can't remember what it is supposed to be for wood chips but it is common knowledge. If it is too slow the larger partical may be too heavy and will sit on the bottom of the duct until it fills up part of the way which decreases the duct size and therefore increases the FPM until the system reaches equilibrium. I would think that most one man shop could get away with 3 to 5 HP giving out 1500 to 2000 CFM. This will run just about any one machine you might have except for a wider wide belt sander.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/20/2007 12:00 pm ET by riethoven

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 20, 2007 08:08pm | #20

   Afternoon Reithoven..

   Thanks for your in-put. Yep... I do mostly solid stock. Will be picking up about 150 sq. feet shortly at my local hard-wood supplier as a matter of fact. And you are correct about those large shaving kink of sitting on each other in a sort of fluff. I expect to empty that 35 gal. can fairly often. But... I am in no hurry and did the same with a smaller DC having to empty the trash can separator.

   I thought about clogs and dust settling on the base of a pipe causing slow down on air flow. About 1/2 of my entire run is clear 6" flex pipe that you can visually see that in. The other half is a short 10' run of PVC which I intentionally can dis-assemble at what few major turns it takes. I will run a ram-rod through there often as you would a cannon to break up or push out any dust cache or something that got lodged that could lead to a clog or back-up of air pressure.

   Now... I have a question! I have clear flex pipe with a very heavy wire re-enforcement that is self grounding. It comes out of my inlet vane and then a run of PCV around.. up.. and over and then down to a 6" outlet. At that point I have a PCV connector that will attach to that and the remaining 10' is clear flex hose.

   If I had used flex all the way it would be self grounded. But.. the PVC is between flex hose from the cyclone and flex hose directly to the machine and my concern is static electricity shock. I am not concerned with explosion or fire. But.. I intend to wrap a piece of copper wire around the outside of the PVC and connect it directly to the wire from the flex hose on each end of the PVC. Then ground at the cyclone and the other end should ground at machine as the flex is slid over a metal port connector.

   My question is... will wrapping wire around the outside ground it sufficiently or does it need to be passed through the "inside". And if so.. Why? If you can answer that I would appreciate the proper info!

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

1. 
   riethoven | Apr 20, 2007 08:31pm | #21

   The wire on the outside is fine. As long as the connection is being made it doesn't matter where it is. I am not a fan of PVC ductwork because of the static issue. Also the PVC will erode away in placed where there is alot of force behind the shaving like where they are being shot out of a machine. That does not sound like an issue in your case.I am going for Nordfab ductwork. It is super fast to install and if I ever want to change my layout I can. It is expensive but I only have to pay for it once.

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 21, 2007 12:43am | #23

   Afternoon Riethoven...

   They're not exactly handing out PCV schedule 40 on a government give-a-way program these days with the price of petroleum either. ha.. ha...

   I only have about 10' of the PVC as it just bridges the cyclone and the outer wall where the flex pipe runs off to which-ever machine, so the cost would not be prohibitive to change it easily. I was going to just use flex pipe all the way, but didn't have enough and didn't want to wait 4 days to finish the run. I was shocked at the current cost of PVC fittings, BTW. Whoa.. doggie. I'm in the wrong business. :>)

   I have read contrary info on grounding the PVC. Static is worst in cold-dry climates which Atlanta is not. I might not get a significant amount with no ground. I may just wrap the outside and drill a 1/8" pilot hole every three feet or so and run in a #8 sheet metal screw through to the inside and tie into the outer copper wrap to see what happens. If it turns out I need to do both inside and outside as Mapleman posted in the article he copied, I will.

   I think this PVC grounding thing has been as hotly contested as most electrical wiring and electrical HP rating discussions I have seen. Nobody seems to agree with anyone else and even the one's that are close with their theories are never the exact same. There isn't enough PVC to create more than a mild shock I'm guessing, so I will test the water just to see how far I need to go. But again with only 10', not a major task either way.

   Thanks again...

   Sarge.. jt

   Edited 4/20/2007 5:47 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47

2. 
   mapleman | Apr 20, 2007 08:44pm | #22

   Sarge,

   I don't mean to step on Reithoven's toes, but here is the info you are looking for, from the book "Dust Collection Basics" (published by woodstock international)

   Lee

   
1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 21, 2007 01:05am | #24

   Afternoon Lee...

   Thanks for posting the site info. As you probably saw that I just posted, I have seen quite a bit of controversy over this issue. I have read about all the Pentz site several times and quite a few others on the subject and the contradictions seem to point to no proven.. accurate answer in trying to sort out what the truth really is. Kind of the same about accurate cfm ratings and micron rating given out by the manufacturers.

   Possibly a large government grant to a "few good men" to waste some tax-payer money with a study for years while we tell em we should come up with something more concrete in "just another year or so". Possibly combine that study with "why" cat-fish float to the surface when you place an electrical wire in the water and crank the generator on an old crank telephone.

   Yep... we might even get one of them Nobel Prizes for our effort or lack of..... which-ever comes first!

   Sarge.. :>).....   ha..ha... ha..ha..ha.. 

1. 
   mapleman | Apr 21, 2007 05:26am | #25

   Hey Sarge,

   I would agree with you on receiving mixed info about the grounding. I just figured I would post it up there and let you decide for yerself. Personally, I plan to use metal duct work when the time comes, for at least the main and the downward drops. Then clear spiral for the rest.

   I will say that the book I posted from (I think I bought it from grizzly) has some useful info, like charts listing the static pressure loss for different fittings (wye, elbows, etc.) so that you can add up all of your fittings along with your straight runs and determine an approximate static pressure loss of your system. Of course, if the manufacturers are stretching the truth, that might not do you any good.

   Looking forward to your full report when you get the PSI cyclone up and running, especially with the jointer and that 20" planer, which is high on my priority list (but I'm thinking I might need the dust collector first, with all of those chips flying around.

   Cheers,

   Lee

2. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 21, 2007 05:00pm | #26

   Morning Lee...

   I agree about going ahead and getting the dust collection. I wish I had years ago.

   To add to the grounding bit, I have posted on another forum I am on and the grounding issue is just a vague their as all the different articles I have read. Most of which dispute each other with none coming out and saying that their theory had been proved conclusive.

   Living in a humid-warm climate in Atlanta, I may just not ground the PVC to see if I get a shock. If so, I will warp the ground wire around it. If it still comes, I will drill 1/8" pilot holes in the top of the PVC and sink 2" #8 sheet metal screws through and connect the already wrapped ground wire around their head.

   And if that doesn't work... I'm going to take the PVC down and replace it with a 10' flex hose as I am using from that PVC out-let to machine for connection as I wish I had done in the first d*amn place at this point!

   :>) ....   ha..ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Sarge.. jt

3. 
   AzDiscDog | Apr 23, 2007 05:15pm | #32

   Hey Sarge,Thought I would add to the confusion regarding PVC & discharge...http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.htmlYou had mentioned earlier that you're not worried about explosion -- only the possibility of getting shocked. And you already know the solution for that -- bare wire wrapped / secured to the outside of the ductwork.Out of curiosity -- are you concerned about the loss of efficiency in using the flex pipe vs the straight pipe? I know your runs are really short, so is it a non-issue for you?Glen

4. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 23, 2007 07:31pm | #33

   Afternoon Glen...

   I was just going out the door to work and caught your post. The site you posted is the same that Scrit posted and very well laid out and very explanatory.

   "Out of curiosity -- are you concerned about the loss of efficiency in using the flex pipe vs the straight pipe? I know your runs are really short, so is it a non-issue for you"?

   Glen*****************************************************

   From the tremendous suction I am getting on a 23' run ( I re-measured the bends accurately as had estimated before and came up short 3') it is a non issue to me. Even with the thick, re-enforced CVD pipe with it's spirals that are not smooth on the inside, I wouldn't want my lovelies beloved little calico cat to pass by the open end of the in-let pipe for obvious reasons. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

5. 
   Bruce B. | Apr 23, 2007 08:07pm | #34

   Good afternoon Sarge,

   I took some photo's of my PennState system. Now that it has been up for a couple of years the only change I need to make is to extend the last drop on each side. Although the spiral duct (5" & 4") along with the "y" fittings are pretty pricey they provide the least resistance, Wish they had the one you bought when got mine. That aluminum impeller is more efficient and a lot easier on the motor. Good luck with yours.

   Cheers,

   Bruce

   
6. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 24, 2007 07:20am | #35

   Morning Bruce...

   Nice set up you have in what appears to be a nice, spacy shop. Nice job on the ducting also. BTW... nice job on router table ducting specifically as I saw the pics of that from Forest Girls thread.

   I am almost ready for the "shock test" with the DC. I already know that the set-up I used with 6" all the way from cyclone to machine without a reduction will deliver the power to the end of the single line I am using on one machine at a time. This week-end should produce some hard core evidence one way or the other on whether it will filter the dust properly.

   I see from the other thread that you finally got a digital camera. I am a cell phone "hold-out" and hope to have the inscription on my tomb-stone on boot hill, "He made it through life without a cell-phone". :>)

   But... with that said, you're gonna love that digital. They take excellent pics even with a novice as me and they are extremely easy to operate and put on-line instantly to illustrate what you say.

   I guess they are easy to put in the computer? I just take the pic and my lovely has it on in a heart-beat. She won't show me how to do it on "her" computer as she knows I am a dangerous man with electronics and that's under-stating the point. ha.. ha...

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt  

7. 
   Bruce B. | Apr 24, 2007 07:54pm | #36

   Good afternoon Sarge,

   Thank you for the compliment. My shop is 11' x 22' x 7' and also serves as a garage under the house. 3 1/2 years ago it was just a dark, dank concrete space. Amazing what some lights, paint, a new floor and some electric upgrades will do. Everything is on wheels and gives a lot of flexibility to layout. Caught the woodworking bug when I built an entertainment center down in the cave and after using my lungs to filter the air (even with those stupid paper dust masks) decided to get serious about dust collection/air filtration. Huge difference in the air quality though I still wear a good dust mask when cutting MDF. I use the RAS for crosscutting and the dust collection setup works very well (about 80% effective).

   Keep us posted on your "test" this weekend.

   Cheers,

   Bruce

   P.S. I'm with you on the cell phone (I have one supplied by work but only turn it on when I'm at a job site. The digital camera is great and easy to load/crop/resize on the computer. If you would like to see the whole shop "stored" and "set-up" I will post pics.

8. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 25, 2007 08:14am | #40

   Morning Bruce...

   I can't think of one reason "not" to see pics of your shop. It looks larger than that from the pics. You did a nice job of set-up and mobility adds space as it allows flexibility with what fixed space is physically present!

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt