Replies

1. 
   UncleDunc | May 20, 2002 07:06pm | #1

   Bid it real high, and if she picks you anyway, tell her that too many family jobs end up in bitterness and recriminations, and you certainly don't want that to happen between you and her, so you need cash in advance.

   Fix the bid with your colleague. Get him to bid the job low and then you pay him the difference. Think of it as the price of keeping piece in the family.

   Tell her you'd be happy to, but you need a big, expensive tool to do the job right, so if she'll buy you the tool for your birthday, you'll build the piece she wants for her birthday.

   Take the job, but only work on it when you have nothing else to do, and I mean nothing else. All projects delivered and payment collected. Shop swept and dusted. All tools razor sharp. Saw and jointer blades sharpened. Jigs labelled and hung from the rafters. Shorts bin sorted by size and spieces. Etc. This is the technique my brother the remodeler used. Perfectly happy to take family jobs, but they came after his commercial work, no matter how torn up the jobsite or how long he'd left it that way.

   Take the job and don't work on it all. If she complains, tell her about the abnormally short deadline on your current project. Let her be the one to call it off. If you can sense when she's about to break, buy the wood for the project a day or two in advance and use it to whip some guilt on her.

1. 
   sschefer | May 20, 2002 11:48pm | #2

   Thanks for the truth and humor... I'm not sure if any of that would work but it sure would be fun to give it a try.Steve - in Northern California

2. 
   forestgirl | May 21, 2002 12:23am | #3

   Oh, dear!  Sounds like she's trying to put you in the middle of some kind of dispute???   Good on ya for not getting involved.  She should respect your friendship with the other woodworker.  On another note, I'd not tell him about the approach she made to you, though.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   sschefer | May 21, 2002 12:28am | #4

   Ah ha... finally caught up with ya.... Up a little late last night were we ? LOL

   At first I thought I might tell him but I decided it was best to leave it alone. The bad part is that I think she was trying to do me a favor and just didn't realize what a mess it could turn into.Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   forestgirl | May 21, 2002 02:00am | #5

   Yeah, that's information he reallllly doesn't need to have.

   Last night was a significant date in the history of mankind -- the last ever episode of X-Files!!!  Usually, I surf and watch TV at the same time, but not during that one.

   The Truth is Out There...

   Trust No One...

   Believe the Lie...

   Man, were they weird!  It was fun while it lasted though :-)

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   kcg99999 | May 21, 2002 03:29pm | #6

   Hi Steve,

   I’ve actually been on both sides of this issue. I’ve had clients taken away from me and been in the position to take clients. The situation is tricky and complicated.

   In the first instance, I had a friend – a good friend – who took a client from me and didn’t tell me. It really hurt – not that they took the client, but that they didn’t tell me. It was really hard to stick it out and not just walk away. But in the end, they are my friend and that was more important to me than the client, the fee, or my pride.

   In the second incidence, (actually this has happened twice) I’ve been in the position of taking clients from the same friend. I’ve been determined not to let any bad feeling happen over this. In both situations, I’ve told the client that it before I proceed, I need to talk to my friend.

   The one thing you should remember is that the client has the right to contract with whomever they want to for whatever reason - it’s their money. Maybe they’re shopping for price, maybe they like your work more than the other person’s, maybe your sister just wants to give her brother the work knowing you need it – I think maybe she’s trying to do something nice for you. So I think that’s a separate issue from how you deal with your fellow woodworkers.

   When we’ve confronted this issue, both my friend and I agree, that it is better for one of use to keep the client rather than loose them to a third party. So we work something out. We pay each other finder’s fees; we take each other out for lunch; we refer the next job that we can’t do to the other. Currently I have more work than I can do, and so I will subcontract a job that came in yesterday to my friend. This understanding has been good for both of us. But it takes an understanding that “pride is only a feeling”; we're both pros - in it for the money; it’s always better to keep the client between us if at all possible. So I'd recommend talking to your buddy and see what you can work out. 

   Hope this helps,

   Best,

   Kim Carleton Graves
   Carleton Woodworking

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/21/2002 8:51:03 AM ET by Kim Carleton Graves-Carleton Woodworking

1. 
   lwilliams | May 21, 2002 04:09pm | #8

   Kim is right. Talk to your friend. There may be a reason he's dragging his feet on this job and it sounds like that may be happening. Keep it above board and also be up-front with your sister.

   I've competed with one of my best friends for years and even big against him, with his knowledge, on his own designs. I don't mind when he ends up with a job we've competed for because I know the client will get a high quality product.

   The greatest thing you can have in this business is good high-quality competition. Being good friends with that competition can only keep raising the bar and benefit you both.

4. 
   TERRE5 | May 21, 2002 04:01pm | #7

   Steve,

   I'm with Kim on this.  Maybe the client has noticed some workmanship that he/she didn't like.  Maybe they are shopping around.

   I realize that trading with the same individual is traditional, but there are times when you might get upset over how a project goes.  Deadlines that were not met, things said during the design or construction that only one remembers, etc.

   I am currently building a pretty large addition to my house and I am not using one single subcontractor from 6 years ago when I built my house.  There are several reasons-Some I was very unpleased with the work, one stole tools 2 weeks after they were through, and the main carpentry sub "got back to me" 5 weeks after I gave him a set of plans to go over.  I was cutting down trees and moving utilities the day he called.

   Thing is-most all of these people will know that they are not being used on the job-I live on a State Highway that is well traveled around here.

   Do what you feel like is right in your mind and heart.  You'll come out ok.  From the info you provide on here, you seem like a level headed individual.

5. 
   nhlett | May 22, 2002 01:59pm | #9

   Steve,

   Talk about a rock and a hard place! You didn't say why she wants to change. She may have a good reason, like he is hitting on her.

   Some of the strategies I read in the responses have a high potential for coming back to bite you. She is your sister, be honest, I would guess that you have said no to her more than once.

   Regarding your friend, that would depend on the problem. Like I said, she is your sister.

   Good luck!

   Peter

1. 
   sschefer | May 22, 2002 10:56pm | #10

   Thanks for all of the responses folks... I believe that she wanted me to do the job just because I'm her brother. My brother is doing the plumbing but she didn't know that I was going to kick my wood whacking business into full gear after retirement. My brother has already had his share of problems and although the offer was a wonderful gesture, I just didn't feel right about accepting it. My brother bid the job competitively but it was just being handed to me so there's the difference.

   This is a new house, (very high end), that she and her husband are building. The person that is in line for the job has put a lot of time in already and deserves the job. I can do the job and it will be of the highest quality but so can he and to the same or better standards.

   She called me the other day and asked me again if I would do the job. I again declined and armed with advice from you folks my response was that my shop would not be up to speed soon enough. Because I would be late, she would have to expect delays and extra costs from the other sub's. I offered to review the current bidders and assist with the final decision, which she accepted and I did. Even though my friend was a bidder, the others on the list did not compare with his skills or integrity. As a result, even though his bid was the highest, she and her husband accepted the bid and he has the job.

   End Result: Everybody is happy --- Whew .... Thanks again folks.

   Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   forestgirl | May 23, 2002 06:26am | #11

   Steve, my accolades!  Sounds like you handled it perfectly!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

6. 
   sydspal | Jun 30, 2002 02:15am | #12

   The idea of working for family can cause more trouble in the long run.  Once had a very good friend refuse to sell me a car.  Afterward, I found out he liked me as a friend more than he wanted to sell the car.  Made me realize he was a better friend than I thought!  Don't take the chance with family!

   The other part is you should show your friend the respect to be up front with him!  Tell him you were appraoched about the job but, have turned it down for the reasons of family and his friendship.  This will pay big dividends in the long run.  And like someone else mentioned, you may get more work from him because when he's busy, he can tell those who came to him he has a "friend" they can trust to do the right thing.  Should do more to improve your overall situation than you recognize now.