Replies

1. 
   SgianDubh | Apr 16, 2006 01:49pm | #1

   Pure oils, and I'm assuming perhaps wrongly that's what you used, such as tung oil and linseed oil give off a rancid, sweaty sock smell that tends to linger for decades if used on the inside of cabinets. I'm not sure the smell ever goes away if the oil is not sealed off somehow-- I haven't lived long enough yet to find out, ha, ha.

   Oil based varnishes, again made with tung oil or linseed oil as constituent parts also tend to smell somewhat iffy for a long time-- months usually, maybe a year or two-- if used inside enclosed cabinets.

   The best way I know to reduce or hopefully get rid of the bad smell of pure oil finishes used inside enclosed cabinets is to seal the stuff off with shellac as you've done, but it doesn't seem to have done the trick entirely in your case.

   I wonder, for one, if you've missed some areas that ought to be done. Secondly, you might need additional coats of shellac to build a better film barrier. The shellac trick doesn't always work though in my experience.

   The safest bets I find for finishing the inside of enclosed cabinets, i.e., ones with doors, drawers, fall flaps, tambours and the like, and to avoid such nasally challenging odours is to leave them bare, apply shellac, or use one of the sprayed nitro-cellulose family of polishes. I don't use water based polish/varnish, but some people reckon these are safe (stink wise) for the inside of cabinets, but of course (as a non user) that's outwith my experience.

   These recommendations don't take into account any debate regarding balancing the polish requirements of wood on the inside and outside of a cabinet. That's a different discussion. Slainte.

   Richard Jones Furniture

1. 
   JayS | Apr 16, 2006 07:58pm | #2

   Regarding the upper cabinet, I really only used this method on the inside of the frame and panel doors.  It was pure tung oil, not varnish.  On the lower desk, I used it on the gallery drawer fronts and the writing surface.  I sprayed 3 or 4 coats of shellac to build a base film  and then French polished.  I too was under the impression that the shellac should seal ion any residual odor emanating from the oil.  At this point given the current situation, is there anything I can do besides leaving it open all the time? Thanks.

   Jay

1. 
   SgianDubh | Apr 16, 2006 09:29pm | #3

   Jay, I can't think, without perhaps examining your piece of furniture, of anything useful over and above what you've already done, unless you've missed some patches of the pure oil.

   Shellac is a very good sealer for these sorts of stinky problems, but as I said earlier it's my experience it doesn't always work.

   Hopefully someone else can come up with a better solution than you leaving the thing open as much as possible, but I'm stumped for a solution now.

   I suppose one lesson learnt is that you'll never finish the inside of a cabinet again with a pure oil finish. Sorry about learning it the hard way, but perhaps you'll be reassured somewhat to know that I did the same thing once nearly thirty years ago-- only once though, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

1. 
   JayS | Apr 16, 2006 10:32pm | #4

   Thanks.  Obviously the writing surface (which becomes enclosed on the inside of the cabinet as the desk top is closed), needed the grain filled. I didn't want to use a different method for that surface compared to all of the exterior surfaces, thinking it wouldn't match.  I guess I should have used another filler. I have had problems in the past with pores turning white from pumice dust with shellac, alone. (The so called "tradtional method" of French polishing.)  Just letting you kow my reasoning.

   Jay

1. 
   SgianDubh | Apr 17, 2006 11:57am | #6

   That's one of the problems with using pumice as a grain filler during the french polishing process. It does usually turn white later and shows. I guess for the future you'd be best to use one of the proprietary fillers in a can for the grain filling of interior parts and polish over the top.

   Ready canned grain fillers come in oil based and water based versions. Both work (or you can make your own out of plaster of paris as I do when the mood takes me and colour it with water based powder paint.) You can buy the colour you want in a can or modify the colour using compatible pigments. UTC's (Universal Tinting Colours) are good for this. If you want to colour your own you can buy a neutral colour-- often an off-white cream colour. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

2. 
   Floss | Apr 17, 2006 03:01am | #5

   Jay,

   Have you noticed if the piece is "sweating" any oil at all? It is possible that the polish has very fine cracks since the oil may not have been totally dry. Now the oil is slowly coming out, or maybe just the smell.

   Sometimes if you wash the surface with some soapy water and a little pumice that may help solve the problem. Then pad on a coat or two after to bring back the shine and fill the cracks.

   There is another method of rubbing on a "polish reviver" which consists of 1 part raw linseed oil and 1 part vinegar. It may take several applications but I have never tried it. I found the recipe in an old polishing book by Charles Hayward. Another "reviver" recipe is 1 part raw linseed oil, 1 part vinegar, 1 part denatured alcohol. I suppose you can only try at this point.

   J.P.

   http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
1. 
   SgianDubh | Apr 17, 2006 12:11pm | #7

   JP, one problem I envisage with using the polish revivers you suggest is that they contain linseed oil, either boiled or pure.

   I'd be concerned that this would only add to the obnoxious stink that Jay is trying to deal with now. I have used such polish revivers-- Haywood goes back a long way and I'm just about old enough to remember him as the editor of The Woodworker back in the 60's. Those revivers worked okay on old furniture that was oiled/waxed in the first place. They didn't work very well on old shellacked surfaces as I recall there being too much oil that hung about that really needed to be spirited off.

   Some of his reviver tricks seem to have been found to be less than ideal. I'm struggling to recall where the memory is coming from but it's in my head somewhere that those mixtures he suggested have some deleterious long term effects on polished surfaces. I wish I could cite an authoritave  reference, but I can't, so I'm afraid this note of caution will have to be taken as mostly hearsay. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 17, 2006 02:43pm | #8

   That "reviver" practice and similar "feeding" of the wood with linseed oil, is one of the sources of the black grunge finishes so beloved of the "Antique Road Show" twins, and so reviled by museum conservators.  I definately would not compound the odor problem with more, smelly, linseed oil. 

   I would do a small experiment before doing anything really drastic.  First, I would brush on several coats of 2 lb. cut shellac over the internal areas which had the oil underneath.  Before rubbing these out, I would see if this undisturbed shellac as the desired odor blocking effect.  If so, then you can rub them out to bring them back to being close to the French polished look, albeit a bit thicker.  They will be in different planes of light than the exterior surfaces so the difference can probably be made satisfactorily small. 

   Part of the magic of French polish is how it enables a very thin coating to be applied and smoothed. It just perhaps hasn't been sufficient to seal in the odor from the tung oil.   I would have thought your approach would have worked, but the reality is that for some reason it hasn't.  

    

1. 
   SgianDubh | Apr 17, 2006 03:22pm | #9

   "one of the sources of the black grunge finishes"

   Ah, thanks Steve for telling us what it was that was deleterious about those oil based polish revivers. Yes, it was the overall long term darkening.

   At least my fuzzy memory of a problem prompted someone (you) to bring some light to the topic-- or should that be dark, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture

2. 
   Floss | Apr 17, 2006 04:43pm | #10

   I can't really say one way or the other as to wether or not the "revivers" would have any positive or negative effect on the smell. I assume that the addition of the vinegar is to aid in the overall removal of the oil. Then the remainder is worked off as the final polish is applied and the finish cleared as usual.As well I have not tried these methods and offered them only as a possible remedy. I also would think that if there were a few coats sprayed and then the polishing afterward, that there would be a sufficient layer of shellac to mitigate the smell. One thing I find interesting is that I have used a tung oil mix and applied shellac right over the oil after I wiped it on and then rubbed the whole surface with steel wool. The smell lingered for a few days then it was gone. I only brushed on 1 coat of 2 pound cut shellac so maybe the film was thin enough to allow the oil to cure and the smell to dissipate. Maybe the shellac Jay applied was too thin to seal and too thick to allow the oil to cure fully since the pores were basically packed with oily dust.I suppose he could just strip it and start over since it is only the inside of the lid.By the way how do you pronounce the words Sgian, Dubh, and Slainte?Thanks,J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

1. 
   JayS | Apr 18, 2006 08:10am | #12

   It would be the inside of the lid, the portion of the writing surface in front of the gallery, the inside of the sides of the slant top desk, and the drawer fronts of the gallery, as well as the inside surfaces of the frame and panel doors on top.

     When you say "strip it", it would be easy enough to remove the shellac with alcohol, but the partially or fully cured oil packed into the pores, mixed with wood dust, would be impossible to remove.  Remember, my initial mixture had japan drier, which I really think causes the oil to dry faster.  How would you "strip" that without sanding deep into the bare wood?  (and by the way, the inside of my desktop, and the doors are veneered with crotch walnut, which can only take so much more sanding beofre they get sanded through.)

    

   The whole prospect makes me sick, since I devoted several months just to the finishing of this project.

    

   Thanks.

   Jay

1. 
   joinerswork | Apr 18, 2006 05:11pm | #15

   Jay,

   I wonder if it would be helpful to try placing an open box of baking soda in the desk interior for a while.  (hints from Heloise!)  It has helped me in the past to eliminate odors in antique furniture drawers and cabinets.  Worth a try, and won't harm anything.  Don't know much about carpet odor removers, or the pet odor removers available at pet shops, may be worth looking into.

   Traditionally gum benzoin, alcohol soluble like shellac, was used for cabinet interiors. It has a spicy aroma.  But as has been said already, may be adding fuel to the fire, to pile more on top of what you have there already.

   Good luck,

   Ray Pine

2. 
   JayS | Apr 18, 2006 06:46pm | #16

   I like the baking soda idea.  I'll try it.  By the way, I used extra virgin olive oil for the actual french polishing, as a lubricant.  It worked beautifully and did not fog the finish at all, whcih has happenend to me in the past with mineral oil and paraffin oil.  This was a recommendation I got from a paper on french polishing guitars.  I "spiritied it off" with a pad loaded lightly with mostly alcohol and a little shellac, but it was odorless, so I doubt that is related to the smell isssue.

   The piece is currently in place at the top of a staircase in my house, and required 3 people to carry it up.  It will be a major pain if I have to detach the upper case from lower, and move it back downstairs to refinish.  I especially want to avoid spraying anything since the droplets from overspray would basically mandate that I re finish the entire piece.  I might be able to live with brushing.  Thanks for all the thoughts.

   Jay

3. 
   user-126535 | Apr 19, 2006 05:28am | #17

   Hi Jay;

   I really feel for you...all that work and having it smell like gym socks!  I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.... IF you don't have any bleeding taken place and everything has completely cured than I agree with spraying more shellac over the problem areas if all else fails. I believe if you could spray the entire piece it would be even better.. As for the over spray, you can try tapeing off all areas not being sprayed...I've done this numerous times and it works well. 

   One area that has not been addressed is the Olive oil you used as the padding lube.  Could that have become rancid? I've never used Olive oil. Also, this might be one of those that is hard to determine what was the cause. There's a lot of different things that could have gone wrong... depending on how old, how thick or thin the tung oil, weather conditions then and now along with other possible factors.

   This might sound strange, but has worked for us in several simular situations-  Place an opened bag of bar-b-que charcoal inside of cabinet if it will fit.  If not, place charcoal in small open containers and close cabinet doors.  Leave it as long as you can without disturbing it.  The charcoal will suck up the fowl odors well.  I hope you find a solution Jay....Good Luck,

   Steve

    

    

4. 
   JayS | Apr 20, 2006 03:54am | #18

   Steve,

   Thanks for the thoughts.  Now I can try baking soda and charcoal together!  The amount of olive oil used was miniscule.  Literally 1 drop at a time, whereas the tung oil was brushed on and sanded in.  I am certain the olive oil is not the problem.  The finishing was done in Atlanta over the winter, at the time of year when the humidity is the lowest, although the humidity here is certainly higher than in other cities.  If the adsorbents don't work, I may remove the lid and re-spray it's inside, remove the gallery drawers and re-spray their fronts, remove the top cabinet doors and respray their inside.  IN that case, the only thing to be "taped off" would be the writing surface.  Perhaps I can tap on a piece of cardboard to protect the front of the cabinet.  I'l let you know what happens.

   Jay

3. 
   joinerswork | Apr 18, 2006 05:03pm | #14

   Richard,

   Just so.  In a visit to the duPont Winterthur museum in Del in the '70's, one of the docents told us that their practice from the 30's up to the 50's  was to polish with a linseed oil, vinegar and turpentine mixture.  They stopped when they realized the stuff was turning black, and there was no effective way to remove it.

   This was confirmed to me by the head of the Smithsonian's furniture conservation lab.  He said that the problem was that linseed oil only partially "cures" and while it continues to darken, it also attracts and holds dirt and dust.  The polymerization of the oil keeps it from being re-dissolved unless it is heated to above 400 degrees F, and wood ignites at 451-- not much room for error there!

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

2. 
   JayS | Apr 18, 2006 08:01am | #11

   I have not seen any sweating or cracks, and I think linseed oil smells alot worse than tung oil.  If the reviver mixture includes alcohol it will destroy the finish and mixing in vinegar,which also stinks, would I think create an unbelievable odor of its own.  I am reluctant to try it.  I could try the soap and water which might leave the finish basically intact.  Is there any chance that it will just air out anfter a few months?

   Jay

1. 
   Floss | Apr 18, 2006 03:25pm | #13

   I am not sure as to the effectiveness of the revivers however what I think the alcohol is supposed to do is to help soften the finish slightly while the oil allows you to glide the pad without disturbing the finish and the vinegar possibly helps force the oil out. I cant say for sure since I have not tried it. Just threw it out there as a possibility. French polishers still use linseed oil as a lubricant for padding on shellac. At least there is a fellow in my area who was taught using linseed oil and still uses it. So I guess it is a matter of technique as to how well the oil is removed in the final stage. I use mineral oil or paraffin oil so it really doesn't stink too much.I don't know why the tung oil smells so much. I think linseed oil smells so much worse than tung oil so that part is a mystery. I suppose if you use soap and water then just use a damp cloth and dry thoroughly. Is it possible to remove the lid and spray a couple of coats on it and see if that doesn't seal it, then re-polish. What kind of oil did you use for polishing?I don't think it would hurt to leave it for ####little longer. I would consider stripping only after I tried to re-seal with a little more shellac and after I let it sit for a few months like you say.As far as stripping, once the polish is removed the filler will most likely come out as well. I had to strip a top that I used the behlens oil based grain filler on and once I removed all the shellac I wiped the top with a clean rag and alcohol and basically all the filler was gone. So I don't think you will have to sand to remove the filler.I wonder if you sand the inside pieces lightly with 320 or 400 grit paper and let it sit for a couple of weeks then spray and re-polish, if the sanding would allow the oil to dry a little more? It is hard to say. Also, is the surface totally dry? Not oily to the touch at all. If you drag your finger across the surface does it leave a smear? I'll try some of the reviver out today and let you know how it works. I have a small piece in here that I can experiment on.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com