Replies

1. 
   LeeEschen | Oct 11, 2002 11:02am | #1

   David,

   That's just the way MDF is. It does not compress like wood does, so when you shoot a brad into it, it's got to go somewhere else other than where the nail is. Predrill and hand nail & set might work if you can match your paint color with a putty to fill the hole.

   I can't for the life of me, though, imagine why anyone would want to use painted MDF for moulding and cabinetry when there's all this gorgeous wood in the world. There's also the fact that a 3/4"x4'x8' sheet of MDF weighs 90#, and it's awkward to boot. I do use MDF, but mostly for jigs and fixtures and for specific reasons, where it will do a particular job better, definately not for general cabinetry.

   --

   Lee

2. 
   archyii | Oct 12, 2002 02:49am | #2

   Search the fine homebuilding site.  After shooting the nails use a chisel to scrape off the hump, fill the hole and use a shellac based primer.  MDF is the way things are going.  We need work with it.  The attitude that mdf is SH* is short sited (sort of like plywood was evil 60 years ago).  Watch out for the dust and MDF is fragile at mitered corners.

1. 
   ChasStanford | Oct 12, 2002 04:07pm | #3

   MDF has no place in building fine furniture, nor does plywood - not on case backs, drawer bottoms, or anywhere. 

1. 
   UncleDunc | Oct 12, 2002 09:33pm | #4

   Thanks for sharing your opinion.

   If you have a moment, could you impart the One True Definition of Fine Furniture, so we can understand how and why plywood and MDF don't fit in?

   As it happens, I agree that MDF is pretty clearly not suitable for prepainted molding that will be attached with a power nailer. But I would argue that, for instance, plywood drawer bottoms are clearly superior to solid wood by every criterion except historical accuracy.

1. 
   ChasStanford | Oct 13, 2002 05:21pm | #6

   My definition of fine furniture automatically precludes the use of sheet goods.  I don't care who uses it, or who endorses it, or who provides an eloquent argument supporting it's use.

   Don't feel bashful, or wasteful, about using all solid wood for your projects (or veneering over solid stock).  The manufactured furniture industry still uses millions of board feet of solid stock each year.  You will use such a miniscule amount (relatively speaking) over your entire lifetime that you should not be worried about it at all.

   The stuff is a bitch to handle anyway. 

   Edited 10/13/2002 10:27:30 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD

2. 
   ChasStanford | Oct 13, 2002 09:06pm | #7

   There is virtually nothing about a solid drawer bottom that is inferior in any way to plywood.  I'm surprised to have to argue the point, quite frankly.  A properly constructed drawer will have a bottom that never splits and holds up well to the abuse a drawer bottom receives.  I can easily visualize a scenerio in which the veneer on a plywood drawer bottom would delaminate over years of use, revealing the ugly inner layers of the material.  This can't happen with solid wood.  I would even go so far to say that a split in a solid wood drawer bottom would be less of an aesthetic problem than delaminated veneer on a plywood drawer bottom.

   Your comment about historical accuracy seems to assume that the use of solid wood bottoms by modern woodworkers is some sort of quaint eccentricity.  It's not.  Or hell, maybe it is.  If so, I'm pleased to be called eccentric.

   I admit that these are simply my opinions.  I'm sorry, but I just don't value plywood as a building material for fine furniture. 

1. 
   gweisenburge | Oct 14, 2002 12:56am | #8

   So, you haven't really provided us with a definition of "fine furniture" except to say that it's constructed entirely of solid wood and that it's not fine if it has any plywood in it. And since you bring up the subject of delamination, am I to conclude that veneered surfaces aren't within your definition of fine furniture? Besides material qualifications, does your definition have any precepts regarding craftsmanship? How about design - oooh, I think it might be fun to go here?

   Seriously, I think you may be a majority of one.

   Gary

2. 
   RSRose | Oct 14, 2002 04:48am | #9

   Gary,

   It's a waste of time. We all had better just acknowledge his superiority in . . . well . . . everything.

   I for one, from now on, will simply wait for his wisdom to be generously dispensed to us low lifes, much like crumbs at his feet.

   Rich

3. 
   UncleDunc | Oct 14, 2002 05:27am | #10

   >> ... am I to conclude that veneered surfaces aren't within your definition of fine furniture?

   Or bent laminated table aprons?

4. 
   ChasStanford | Oct 14, 2002 02:19pm | #11

   It's like defining art Gary, it's impossible.  But it's my opinion only that 'fine woodworking' or 'woodworking as art' do not use plywood anywhere in their construction.  If that goes against your grain then I'm sorry.  It's just one person's opinion - nothing more.

   Yes, veneer over the solid is okay in my book, but not veneer over MDF or premium veneered plywoods standing alone.  Again, just an opinion.

   I'm a traditionalist without apology.  Do you really like working with plywood?

   I enjoy the challenge that working with solid stock presents - accomodating for movement, flattening it, matching grain, cutting it, smelling it, feeling it...

   The few times that I've used plywood always made me feel like I was somehow cheating. 

     

   Edited 10/14/2002 7:27:30 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD

5. 
   gweisenburge | Oct 14, 2002 06:03pm | #12

   To each his own definition, but I don't think a work art has ever been defined by its medium, or the materials. Websters says fine art is "produced or intended chiefly for beauty rather than utility," and that it's "something requiring highly developed techniques and skills." I think fine furniture can be fine art, but then utility may need to be dropped from the definition, however technique and skill must remain. So I take your opinion about what is fine furniture with a small grain of salt.

   For fifteen years I built and repaired wooden boats, and I hated working with both plywood and glass reinforced plastic. My own small craft were traditionally built:  carvel planked, fastened with copper and bronze, fashioned with hand tools, and there wasn't a bit of man made wood in any of them, God forbid any plastic. I loved the work! At the same time, I was lucky to have worked on many of the finest yachts, works of art really, on the East coast. Some of those great ladies had plastic and plywood in them. They were no less fine, in my opinion, than those yachts that were entirely traditional. The latter were my favorites, however they were just older than the former. I sometimes had to make repairs to those "stinking materials (I called fiberglass frozen snot)," because that work paid the bills so I could continue doinjg what I wanted back in my boat shop. There I appreciated working with solid wood. I learned however that the techniques and skills required to work with any material are equal to the quality and hoped for longevity of the end product. I also learned that there are artists in every trade, working with every material.

   namaste,

   Gary

6. 
   ChasStanford | Oct 15, 2002 02:13am | #13

   Well said, Gary.  Good luck with your woodworking.

2. 
   gweisenburge | Oct 12, 2002 10:12pm | #5

   Never? Really NEVER? Wow! I'm eager to hear your fine furniture definition too.