Hi Folks,
Woodcraft has the Pfeil Professional Carving Set, Set of 12 for $250, including some slipstones, roll, mallet, etc.
Most folks have advised against buying a set burt rather buying individual tools as needed. This set seems to have most if not all profiles that are recommended so it sounds like a good deal for me.
Anyone care to chime in with their thoughts?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/12/2007 3:29 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Replies
I think that is the same set I bought when I got into carving. It worked well for me, gives you enough variety to get a good start. Once you get into a project, you'll quickly learn what different sweeps and sizes you need to add. I have about 25 different gouges now, collecting the things becomes addictive.
Good luck and have fun!
Jeff
Jeff,
Yeah I know it's addictive. Seems like I already have the addiction and I'm just getting started. Oh well, could be worse I suppose. Besides, they're always nice to get for Christmas, birthday, any holiday if you're so inclined, right?
Look out, here I come,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/12/2007 4:03 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 11/12/2007 4:03 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob
I have to agree with the other Jeff. I started with the Pfeil set back when Woodcraft was selling it with Plum handles, and I have since been adding to it as need necessitates. You will quickly discover, depending on the carving that you are doing, what other chisels/gouges you will need.
Jeff
Bob,
In my humble opinion -- there are many answers -- all dependent on what sort of carving you wind up doing!
If you have the money, want to do a variety of types of carving, then go for it. If you wind up doing a particular type of carving you may find you will only use a few of the tools in the set and will need to buy others more specific to your type of carving. In this case you may have lost significant dollars.
So, the question becomes, will you use all, or almost all, of the tools? If so, then you may have saved some money by buying the set. If not, then you may have actually spent more for tools that you will never use.
Now, my quandry in these sorts of decisions is -- by buying a set I know I have saved money rather than if I bought these items individually. And, maybe because I have the variety of tools I will experiement with carving, or whatever, that I wouldn't have otherwise.
I don't think there is a right answer -- or at least you won't know the answer until it is too late. You could buy the set, then, when you have been carving for a while and know which, if any, you won't use, you can sell them on ebay.
Alan - planesaw
Bob,
Wben I got started in 1968, I ordered a 12 gouge set of Two Cherries. I used them til 2007 when I started buying Pfeils. Of the set of twelve, there were about six that I never found a need for, and a few that I used a lot.
When you start carving something, there is no set of directions on which gouge to use for each cut. You can do most things in a number of ways. So each carver gets his style of using certain gouges for certain things, which may be quite different from how other carvers would do the same thing.
I sent you the research that I did on finding sets of recommendations from all the well known carvers, and you saw that there is little commonality among them. THat was a real learning experience. What I learned was to not look for a perfect set. Just get some and start using them. As you get more experience, you will find that you will want more different gouges to do different things.
After a few years of carving, you will have acquired the gouges you need to do most of the stuff you are interested in.
Dive in. The Pfeil set is a nice one. It is as good as any.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Folks and thanks for responding.
The set appeals to me in that for starters I plan to carve frou frou (Lataxes favorite) and possibly branch out from there. Also, the little woman wants to get back into carving, i.e. relief and small sculptures.
So I thought this set offered a lot of flexibility and the price isn't obscene, albeit not cheap either, but seems like the quality is there. Also recommended by several experienced woodworkers here as well as personal acquaintenances.
I can't wait to get started. Then of course I'll need a carving bench, a new vise, sharpening gear, a computer aided spectron micro-scope,........... :-)
Actually while driving in to work this morning I was thinking of using my 1" belt sander. I'd make a fixture so I could mount it in the bench vise upside down so the belt would be running up instead of down. That way I could hone the blades. Any thoughts on this idea?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/13/2007 7:29 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
You mentioned honing your gouges on a belt sander.
I would avoid that at all costs. It is much too aggressive unless you have a leather belt on the sander.Spyderco makes three grades of ceramic honing stones. The grey one is for sharpening. Then there are two white ones which are close to each other in grit size. When you buy a chip carving set, you get two stones, the grey and the superfine stones. Wayne Barton and others sell these. They are small and only good for chip carving knives. I recommend the full size ceramic ultra fine Spyderco stone for honing gouges. I keep the stone on my bench and use it quite often. Of course, with a gouge, you need to do the inside of the blade as well. You can use a dowel with leather wrapped around it with honing material rubbed on it. I bought the Spyderco set of four honing sticks which are of the ultrafine variety. I use one of them on the inside of the gouges, and the big flat Spderco ultrafine stone on the outside.
When you get your Pfeils, they will feel sharp, but a quick sharpening will really make them cut nicely. I used to use oilstones. A soft arkansas stone followed by a hard arkansas stone work nicely. You can use oilstone slips for the insides if you want to use oilstones.
I use the fine and extra fine CMT diamond stones. You can go to the CMT website to see how to do it. You can also see Joel's page on http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com which feature oilstones, but it also works for diamondstones or ceramic stones. So when I get a new Pfeil gouge, I start with the Fine CMT diamond stone, then go to the extrafine diamond stone, and end with the Syderco ceramic stone, which puts a mirror shine on the edge.
Most modern carvers put an inside bevel on their gouges. I have tried it both ways, and I like the inside bevel. The bevel is not very long and not very steep. I have a DMT sharpening cone and I use that, and follow it up with the Spderco ceramic slip.All I can say is that this works for me. I like the diamond stones because they work at a reasonable rate, and they only use water, and they don't break and you can use them to flatten other stones, etc. They don't give a mirror shine. People who stick to only diamonds finish up with a diamond paste on a piece of hardboard. I like the ceramic stone to do the same thing.Hope that helps.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I have to politely disagree with your comment on avoiding the belt sander for sharpening carving gouges. You are spot on about it being too aggressive, but that's only true if you're using the wrong grit to start with. I first heard about this method of sharpening in Leonard Lee's excellent book 'The Complete Guide To Sharpening'. IMHO, this is one book no woodworker should not be without.I use a LV 1" x 42" belt sander/grinder that I rigged to an old AC motor (stepped-down to reduce the rotational speed) to sharpen the out-cannel bevel of my Pfeil gouges. The belts I use come from LV but are of the 15-micron variety so they are not aggressive at all. I also use a leather belt coated with honing compound on this rig to help in the finishing process. My Tormek leather wheel does a good job as well.In regards to developing the in-cannel bevel on carving gouges, what I have done in the past is to use hard felt bobs charged with honing compound, but I think your ceramic slips is an excellent idea. I will definitely look into these at Syderco.There are many ways to get to sharp. I use to use ceramic sticks to sharpen knives with but the ones I have glaze over too quickly then need to be de-glazed before they will work properly again. I think good ceramic is superior to water stones - less maintenance. I use a Bester 1K ceramic stone and I really like it because it stays flat. These ceramic slips may be perfect for sharpening parting tools. I love what you can do with these tools, but sharpening them can be a nightmare.Regards,
Phillip
Philip,
You are absolutely right that I was wrong in saying that the 1" belt sander is not a good way to go for sharpening gouges. I am very familiar with Leonard Lee's book. I have LV 15 micron belts. I never bought the leather belt. I know Bob, and I was writing to him about getting started in sharpening and using gouges. He and I have been having this conversation for a few months. He is having a hard time deciding which gouges to start with. When I said that the belt sander is too aggressive, I left out some things. I should have said that I think that it is too aggressive for a beginner. There is far less chance of damaging good gouges, and there is a far better chance of getting the bevel angle right if you use a slower method that permits more control - like oil stones or diamond stones or ceramic stones. I recommend that a newbie learn on stones, and then graduate to the belt sander, using Lee's method, if they want. I have not found the need to go back to the belt sander. The method I described works fine for me. I enjoy it and it is risk free (almost). I hope that explains it.
Thanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I was not saying that you were wrong at all. Quite the contrary. I was only trying to say that there are many ways of getting to sharp and we each have to find out what is best for each of us. We can only listen to the advice of others ... and read a lot on the subject, then set out on our own to find out what works for us. Your ceramic slip stone idea was a great one for me. I have water stone slips, but these just don't have the feel that I know the ceramics will. Thus, I never use them because they are just too soft and how do you true up a slip stone? Forget that.After I bought my Pfeil gouges I was amazed at how they cut. Once the edge wore off, I had to face the fact that I had to learn to sharpen these bloody things. Yikes! All those nooks and crannies? This is what nightmares are made of. As time goes by, we all find our path to those scary sharp edges we used to dream about. In truth, some edges come easier than others, but we should learn from each session. I keep a log and refer to it as necessary.And, I have to agree with you that it's much better to go slow when you're just starting out. Funny, but I was very slow when it came to even start sharpening. I think I was wishing my gouges would stay sharp forever. Boy, was I wrong. You either learn to sharpen or you don't carve.Take care.
Phillip
Phillip,
I believe we were writing to each other at the same time tonight. I enjoyed both exchanges -- gouge sharpening and wooden planes. I hope you enjoy the ceramic slips. I start with the DMT diamond cone/slip and then go to the ceramic slip. You said something about the ceramic slip glazing. I clean my ceramic stone and slips each time I use them, or sometimes every other time I use them, and they have stayed good. I use the diamond cone to make a back bevel, and the ceramic to polish the back bevel and "chase the wire". Sometimes I use a dowel covered with leather and charged with green rouge to get rid of the wire. I find that the ceramic stone and slip give me a shinier finish (and thus hopefully sharper) than when I also use the leather. Anyway, I am glad we got acquainted. Please let me know how your slips work out.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I would just buy what you need. I just checked the set out. I have a little over 50 carving chisels, and only half of the ones in the set are in my collection. So I would have wasted $125 on the set.
But the pfiel (swiss made) chisels are great!
Hey Folks,
My internet connection has been down since 11 AM yesterday so I been out in da woods, so to speak.
Anyway, I came across this idea for sharpening: http://www.carvingpatterns.com/sharpening-2.htm. Would you folks be so kind as to weigh in with your thoughts. As Mel has told you, I'm a noob at carving so I need all the help I can get. It looks like it would work for me for the gouges anyway. I also have a hunk of jewelers rouge with access to many different grits. Any suggestions here?
As to the belt sander appreach that I was thinking, I suppose that would only work on the outside edges and that slips would be required for the gouges, etc. Also, I would use a very fine grit and very light stroke as well. Also have some rather worn 180 & 220 belts (read packrat that dreams a lot). The set comes with both soft and hard Arkansas slipstones so I can get started.
Now that I'm back on the Inet, I will be scouring same for info. and patterns for frou frou, shells (convex & concave), acanthus leaves, fans, etc. Anyone know where there are some good ones. I have access to all of FWW and have found quite a few here already.
Appreciate all the help a,d with my lack of skill this discussion may surpass the 600+ one now currently getting longer all the time.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
About the belt sander;;;
When you get the Pfeils, they will be quite sharp.
The belt sander is great for refreshing the entire bevel, or changing the bevel. You can also use it for honing but to me, that is like taking a Maserati down to the corner store for a gallon of milk. For me it is a bit of trouble to lug out, and put the right belt on.
You can do well just by honing the Pfeils for quite a while, unless you hit a nail or drop one on its edge. For me, it is far easier just to pull out a stone or two.
Just a thought.
More important thought is: as Yoda said, "Don't try. Do."
If you have a few old gouges, I'd practice on them first. See what various grits will do on the edges. Try the belt sander on them. Then when you get the nice Pfeils, you won't be experimenting with a belt sander.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
I have been souring the WEB and am finding that the jist of what you have said to be true, not that I was in any way questioning your wisdom.
On one WEB site it showed and told of taking a board and incising the various profiles on one edge of the board. Then you could coat the profiles with jewelers rouge, etc for honing the inside edge of the gouges. That looked to me like a good way to get these sides sharp. What do you think of this as an interim step until I decide on what stones to get.
CFO says I've spent enuf $ for now, and I'm kinda feeling guilty about it too. With all the other stuff for the woodshop I'm a little tapped right now. Holidays are around the corner too.
Let me know what you think of the board suggestion, OK?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Rob,
I don't have wisdom. I have a history of errors that I try not to make again. You asked about making a stropping board which is customized to a specific set of gouges. That is an old thought. Flexcut even sells a small version of it for the small Flexcut gouges. I made a few of them but, to me, they get kind of unwieldly. I have more than 40 gouges and the board would be six foot wide. :-) And that just isn't necessary. All you need is two slips: One a fine grit and one a super fine grit. The superfine grit might just be a dowel with leather glued to it and green rouge applied to it. I use the DMT diamond honing slip and finally the Spderco ceramic superfine slip. That pair will put a reverse bevel on and polish it, and get rid of the wire. For the outside, I just use two stones, finishing up with the Spyderco superfine stone, which really puts a mirror finish on the blade. So with just four items, I find I don't need a big board with areas for each specific gouge. Hope that helps.
These are just the ways that work for me.
Everyone finds their own.
I used to use oilstones. They work just fine, but I like my new way better.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel and Bob:
I've used MDF instead of wood and it works well. I also ran into a trapper when we were in Denver last summer. He was showing pelts and other interesting mountain lore and he had a couple of what I would call shoe sole leather skins. Well long story short I bought one and have made a bunch of different shaped and sized strops by contact cementing the hide to shaped sticks or blocks. They make a real nice final polish.
Tell the CFO that the Pfeil set is a business expense and have her get the accountants on it right away! The end of the year is coming and the budget won't be renewed at current levels next year if you don't use it all up this year....oh wait that's the government approach....
Madison
Madison,
Hey, that's a thought about the government approach. But on this one I went in a different direction. You see, she likes to carve and actually she was interested in getting a $9.99 set from those junk catalogs we get in the mail.
I told her I wanted to carve furniture, i.e. shells, fans, acanthus leaves on 18c. furniture so she told me to pick out a set and get it! That might have been a mistake. :-)
So far I've done pretty good about not buyin stupid junk although the Board Buddies I just got may break new ground. What about the push sticks!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well Bob now you're talking! If the girl likes carving buy her the Pfeil set for Christmas and you guys can whittle away the hours together! Some time back there was some discussion about the girls not understanding and I told the fellas that they really need to get their ladies into the shop for some serious together time. My hubby and I are elbow to elbow almost everyday in our shop and it doesn't get better than that.
How about you collaborate on the period furniture? You do the case work and she does the shells, scrowls and the like! We do stuff like that all the time. I love veneer and inlay work he loves laminating and bending and we share the case work. You know after almost 30 years it still amazes me how excited our clients get knowing that the two of us share the fun! Course I do need to set them straight now and then about who runs the show, after all it was me that got him involved in wood working after giving him a nice little block plane for Christmas the year we met.
Madison
Madison,
My hubby and I are elbow to elbow almost everyday in our shop and it doesn't get better than that.
No way! We'd end up in divorce court! That would make tool costs insignificant to say the least. I'm just phunnin ya on that.
The truth is that she's the artistic one and I'm the picky ol' fart. Opposites attract!? I will end up doing the frou frou cause it's a goal I have set for myself. The wife wants to do some sculpture like horses in relief, maybe a dog or three, as we have two horses and three collies.
So I think all the chisels in the set will get used. I'll most likely end up doing the sharpening as she cuts herself looking at knives in the kitchen. Imagine that, and she's a cook by profession!
I'm on a course for retirement next August so the past couple of years have been spent getting the shop in order. As for the wife, we're redoing a room in the house for a studio for her crafts and such. She also does toll painting.
Oh yes, there will be a lot of corroboration on many things. We're both making a another batch of birdhouses currently. I don't know about others but the woodshop is my sanctuary, and sometimes I need the theraputic benefit that it provides.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Madison,
I have to start hanging around with more trappers. You lead a more interesting life than I do. I have three leather coated pieces of wood that I use. I make em as I need em. I think you can tell that I am nuts about carving, but not about sharpening. I only sharpen so that I can get back to carvin. It is even more enjoyable when the gouges cut nicely. The only reason I ever found out about these Spyderco ceramic stones is that I taught myself to do chip carving, and the chip carving sets come with two of the ceramic stones. The superfine one is SO good, and so fine, that stropping with the green rouge is a step backwards. I was flabbergasted when I experienced it. So I bought a big superfine ceramic stone and a set of slips for my gouges. To borrow a line from the NRA, the only way you'll ever get them away from me now is to pull them from my cold dead hands. Yuk Yuk
Great to hear from you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
Out here we call em road trips and the excitement is always a mile or two past where all the tourists stop! The trapper is from up near Estes Park and makes his living selling stuff to the tourists.
Madison
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