I just joined this forum and am very impressed with the talent here. I just got some key questions answered in the Machinery section. I would like some of you experienced woodworkers to comment on a decision I am now facing. I will need to ramble a little to set the question up:
I am in the process of freeing up some time and am considering stepping up to a higher level of woodworking than I have previously experienced. I am 65 and retired. I started woodworking in woodshop probably 50 years ago, I am technically competent in many areas and have done amateur woodworking over the years with good results making things as they were needed in my life (including a lot of boating related work) but never getting to projects like furniture or all the classic joints etc. like dovetails. I now have an old 8″ tablesaw, a couple of Makita chop saws (10″ and 14″), a drill press, a router (seldom used), and a fairly new Makita portable planer that has been used once. Plus a large collection of hand tools. I am thinking of “building” a woodshop and including a jointer and a bandsaw. I have a shop building and would dedicate a corner of it to this goal, and I have sufficient funds to buy whatever tools I want. The project of setting all of this up sounds like fun to me. I also plan to take some classes if I can find them in my area. Now the question, I sort of feel that I am putting the cart before the horse — setting up a woodshop prior to really knowing what I will do with it. Sure I have projects I want to build (e.g. wine racks for an unfinished wine cellar) but I could continue as I always have and adapt the project to my tools. As I look into buying a jointer and a bandsaw I over analyze (I always do this) and start considering 8″ rather than 6″, enough clearance for resawing, etc. etc. and I don’t even know what I will do with these tools?? Do you guys think it is foolish to put together a shop and add serious tools without even knowing what you will do with it (and with no commercial goal)? Or, do you think (as I am trying to rationalize) that the fun is really in the journey rather than the destination, and the projects and utilization of the effort will follow. It sounds like I am just looking for support in a decision I have made –but I really am on the fence here and haven’t decided how deeply to jump into this.
Thanks for all your time in reading this, Ed
Replies
Ed,
You are going to get a lot of different answers to this question. Hope you're ready to sort it all out. Here are my thoughts:
With very few exceptions, the ability to take fairly rough stock and mill it square and flat for further work is common to almost every kind of woodworking you'll ever do. So that requires:
- a table saw
- a planer
- a jointer
- a bandsaw for resawing
You'll run into lots of arguments about which order to get these. The right answer, if you can possibly afford it, is to get all four of them on the same day. They all go together.
Set up your shop, if you possibly can, so that rough stock comes through the door and passes through these four tools before moving into the heart of the shop, where you'll make more refined moves.
Now, in addition to all this, think about where you've felt most at home, or most like yourself,or most productive, over the course of your life. Try to recreate that "mood" in your shop somehow. There are great books on how to set up a shop, by Scott Landis, Scott Gibson, Jim Tolpin, Sandor Nagyszalanczy, and its worth getting all of them.
BUT: forget about what other people's shops look like, and don't think that there's a way that shops have to look. Make a shop for yourself.
Rp
Sound advice from Riverprof. Once you make the move from handyman projects to woodworking and furniture, you will want to cut and shape your own wood. These tools will be the basics for getting started. After the basics, any other tools will be like buying drivers and putters for golfers, there will always be a new model that will catch your eye.
Build a new shop workbench with mortise and tenons and pick a design that requires a few drawers so that you practice building boxes with different joints...and have fun!
I discovered an affinity for woodworking while remodeling a house. I didn't have much to speak of for shop machinery, and not much of an idea what I wanted to build. It would not, nor ever will be my occupation (but frequently my preoccupation) or source of livelihood, but I knew that I would always enjoy it immensely! So I began to acquire the tools I needed. Sometimes, I didn't know I needed a tool until I read it in a review or magazine article <G>.
To some degree, I think you've already answered your own question, in that you've discovered that woodworking is an activity that you enjoy. So, your tooling will determine (for the most part) what type of woodworking you can do, and the type of woodworking you aspire to will determine the tools you need. As has already been said, tablesaw, jointer, planer and, possibly, bandsaw are the essentials. However, should you desire to produce hand cut dovetails, then you will also need an assortment of hand tools (marking gauge, dovetail saw, marking knife, planes, etc.).
Michael
Ed,
Have a look at thread 29329.
Lataxe
Ed,
Two things that have not been mentioned yet, are a large tablet of paper and a pencil. If you are going to build fine furniture, you need these. Write every thought down and draw what you want to build. REMEMBER, there is no right and no wrong. Draw what you want to build and make all you layout decisions before you turn on the power.
Jeff
Just to emphasize Jeff's point -- these notebooks go with me everywhere. You can get them at Staples; they're cheap, and the cover can be folded completely back, so they're good for making notes and drawings anywhere.
As another suggested: get them all. That 8-inch tablesaw needs to be replaced also. My humble opinions are based on having had to buy & sell these tools several times. I retired a while back and do just what you are planning.
Here are some opinions: 1.)Buy a Delta 14-inch bandsaw or one of its many clones. Anything smaller is a waste. Its range can be increased at a later date with a height kit for wide resawing. ~$420. 2.)Buy a 6-inch jointer of good quality. If you absolutely won't be satisfied with less than an 8-incher, 6-inchers sell well used. ~$400. 3.)Spend enough on a thickness planer to get one with a head lock. Without that feature, snipes are a persistent problem. ~$320. 4.)You really need a 10-inch tablesaw. ~$600 for a contractor model, $800 for a hybrid, $1000 for a cabinet saw. I have made furniture with lesserr tools than these, however.
You can get decent tools from Lowe's and Home Depot for your purposes. You really should shop their products, especially Lowe's which has begun stocking a good choice of Delta power tools. If you know how to shop by catalog or online, Amazon.com usually has a lot to offer for the money. The Pros will probably poo-poo my advice, telling you to buy more professional tools. Their tools are better, but you and I probably don't need them. Better usually means bigger which needs more space and is heavier. I find that 250 pounds is about as heavy as I need.
Don't forget dust collection. Boxes should work for everything except the planer. It throws a lot of shavings a long way! I have a huge collector, but I judge them as overrated. Mobile bases make good sense if space is limited. Many tools have them standard now. Another item you eventually will want is a router table. I can name other items also, but must stop before depleting your savings.
If you don't get them all at once, get the jointer first, bandsaw or planer next depending on what you make first, then a bigger tablesaw after you get a feel for your own preferences.
FYI, my power tools are Delta tablesaw, bandsaw, scroll saw, drill press, belt/disc sander, & planer; Yorkcraft 8-inch jointer; Ridgid edge/spindle sander; and Performax 10-20 drum sander. Plus other stuff like tenoning jig, mortising chisel set, taper jig, router table & routers, orbital sander, & dovetailing jigs.
See! You could go broke!
Just my humble opinions.
Cadiddlehopper
I would suggest that if possible you take classes that interest you first, and then see If they really interest you enough to upgrade / purchase tools to continue on.
My Dad had always thought turning looked fun. Bought a good lathe, some tools, and accessories. Decided he ought to take a class, because he didn't really know how to accomplish what he wanted. Took the class, decided that he didn't really like it, and sold the lathe setup for about half what he had in it.
Go to the library or book store and browse some books, for projects or tools that interest you. Read those, and see what you want to do, and what tools it will take. I recommend that you read "Woodworking with the Router", by Bill Hylton. The router is one of the most versatile tools you can own, and he does an excellent job of explaining how to ge the most out of it.
Don't rush out and buy the newest whiz bang tool, until you decide if it really makes sense. A lot of people turn into tool junkies. While I like the best tools I can afford, I figured out that it is necessary to separate want from need, and focus on what I need.
Your going to get a lot of Table saw, Jointer, Planer, Router table, Bandsaw suggestions. But if you don't intend to build a lot of case work that requires straight, flat and true boards, you might not want a Jointer, or a Planer, or even a table saw. If you decide that Sam Maloof style chairs is what you want to do, you'll need the bandsaw, maybe a drill press, and a good assortment of files and rasps.
Or you may decide that hand tools are what you love working with, and go into hand planes, shaves, scrapers, chisels, mallets, and hand saws. If you've spent close on a couple of thousand dollars on modern tools, you will have some very expensive dust collectors you don't use.
There are a lot of people for whom the first hand plane was the start of the slippery slope to reverting to a true Neanderthal.
Woodworking is fun, in any form, but all of us have a slightly different thrust in what we enjoy building and how we build it.
Me, I tend to use power tools, and spend most of my time in the shop building "jigs-n-fixtures" so I can use my power tools to build perfect pieces. I enjoy the problem solving more than the actual cutting of wood, and have a huge backlog of half completed projects, because I solved all the problems, and lost interest. When I was younger and living closer to my brothers, and Dad, they would usually finish them up, because they liked the building of things, and the sense of accomplishment that finishing projects brings to most people, (plus I had usually pruchased all the wood and hardware so it was inexpensive for them).
See if there is a woodworking club near you. If so join it, most people will let you come by and use their machines on occasion while your deciding if you want to buy one. I used my Dad's tables saw and drill press, a friends jointer, planer, wide belt sander and hollow chisel mortiser, and another friends planes for years while I was deciding what I wanted / needed to buy, and getting the money together to actually buy them.
Remember to have fun.
Without doubt , you are not on the wrong path. I can tell you for sure because it is a path quite similar to one I have taken. I looked at my impending retirement , decided that woodwork would be the hobby of choice and began accumulating equipment. DO it , if you've a creative enough mind, the tools will drive the results as well as the designs will show the need for tools. I began buying tools about eight years before I was sent out to pasture, no regrets. I have a full stable of stationary tools and get a hell of a kick out of each of them. You must NOT neglect the hand tools , they are a joy to use and are simply very efficient at many jobs, and supply a good dose of satisfaction. I've built a few pieces of furniture and am more than proud of each. Soon I'll get a digital camera so I can post pictures of my work in order to get the critique of the wonderful folks on this forum.
Don't be afraid of not getting just the right tools (currently in vogue on this and other forums) get what you think you want and need. If it does the job YOU WANT it is good enough.
Yea, keep going, and don't agonize over the decisions. LIFE IS SHORT FOR US AT THIS STAGE.
Bend your knees and jump!
As for not knowing what to do with your tools. You already have plans to make those wine racks and just as you start them a hundred different ideas will come into your head about what else to make from magazines, online etc.
The difference being that before when you wished you could try and make soemthing you have seen, you didnt have all the tools to make it and just perhaps forgot about the project. When you have the right tools, you will realise how fast some of these pieces can be made.
Good luck!
edsea,
You are beginning an adventure.
The collected wisdom of those who have already responded to you is considerable.
But, I will suggest that it will be difficult for anyone, including yourself, to answer your question easily -- until you have figured out what sort of things you want to build. That will determine the type and size of tools you need, as well as how your shop is set up.
If you have any good woodworking stores (Woodcraft, Rockler, whatever) go visit. Start networking. Join a woodworking club. Find out who the members are and pick their brains. Keep coming back here to Knots and asking questions.
Your answer will come as you start making things and learning what you enjoy doing and want to do more of. So, simply be ready to change your mind, which can be very good.
If you are a reader, or at least a picture-looker, subscribe to several woodworking magazines, including Fine Woodworking and Popular Woodworking. You can add others, including those in specialty areas for carvers, turners, etc. Others have mentioned the best books.
The Winter 2007 Woodworkers Journal special titled Build the Ultimate Home Shop has an article that I agree with, in general, that suggests your first five tools should be: in the following order, 1. a workbench, 2. a table saw, 3. a jointer and a planer (you almost have to have them both, except in very unusual circumstances), 4. a router table, and 5. a band saw. And, following that article is an article with plans and instructions on how to build Frank Klausz's bench.
You indicate you have enough resources to get good quality tools. I am almost 60 and, although my genes historically have lived into 80s and 90s, I am mindful that I don't want to waste a lot of time with poor quality tools.
I have a 10" General tablesaw, an 8" Bridgewood jointer (sold my 6" within months), 13" Makita planer, large Bridgewood bandsaw, built my own router table using New Yankee Workshop plan (which is first class, and modified to use a Jessem fence), Jet drill press and lathe. Bridgewood is Wilke Machinery in York, PA (I have no connection with them, or any other tool manufacturer or distributor.)
Handtools -- can't get enough of 'em. Lie-Nielsen and Veritas / Lee Valley have great planes. Some of it will simply come down to your preference, at this level of quality. Chisels - L-N. Carving tools -- Two Cherries are probably top of the line, but Pfeil is right there also. When it comes to combination squares go straight to Starrett.
In my opinion - repeat, in my opinion -- the problem with Craftsman and the big box stores is that they don't service their power tools for very long. Craftsman handtools (hammer, wrenches, screwdrivers, etc.) may be good with a lifetime guarrantee, but not the power tools.
And, of course, depending how much fun you have in hunting, some of the older Olivers, etc. from decades ago. The big, heavy, classic machines.
Woodworking is something I have very limited time to do so I (as you said) tend to over-analyze tools to get the best one I can afford.
Number one skill to learn? How to sharpen and hone. Learn the "scarey sharp" system. It's the least expensive and produces about the sharpest edge you can get. The Tormek, IMHO, is the best powered waterwheel when you need that kind of sharpening.
Well, I could go on forever. Whatever you do, enjoy it. Enjoy making sawdust.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 1/7/2007 9:24 pm ET by Planesaw
My advise is the same as all others, get the tools others have stated, but you may want to consider some "used tools". Some of the best purchases I have made were from listings on http://www.woodweb.com, go the the classified section and look in the area that you live, it is listed by the type of tool that you are looking for. Also try http://www.woodcentral.com, same thing, look for the classifieds On this forum, there is also a classified for tools that you can puruse (I bought my bandsaw through this webiste). Also consider a planer, you will need it.
My opinion is that some of the older tools are just as good or better than what you could get buying new. My 5 hp Delta Table saw, $ 800 (circa 1996), Delta 14" Bandsaw $ 450, circa 1994 & included extra blades and extension, Grizzly 8" jointer circa 2002, with new Dayton motor $ 400.
Not bragging or gloating, just pointing out that there is good used machinery out there "if " you have the time to look, and if you buy used you can even talk to the guy who used it, and ask him ( or her) some questions as to how it was used. If they are honest, you can get some feedback, that may been meaningfull, looking at your profile, I assume that you have been around the block a couple of times :-)
Steve
Ed, you got some good advice, but I went another way and never reguetted it. I have always buildt alot of things, house projects, guns, invention type things, and wood projects. Have been in the basement, garage, had excess to a factory shop, and finally built a shop next to my garage. I built it 12x20, which to most of the people would be too small, but I never wanted to get too large knowing that it was just a hobby. I buy want I need and get rid of it if I dont use it. As a matter of fact now I am getting into buying and selling antique tools which just happen to come my way and I have been very successful at it. Before that, a friend and me started buying lumber from small lumber yards and now have four buildings stuffed with lumber. We both build all types of furniture and compare notes each week. The point is there are many facits of woodworking and you never know when you might wonder into a new one. I like to keep loose and keep going. Build a couple of wine cabinets, and who knows, you might want to make some wine. I just got rid of my pots, but that is another story. I started buying farm land years ago so I could hunt quail, now my kids are morgated out to 2035, but I dont worry about where to hunt or buy timber. I usually always have someone cutting down trees and keeping an eye open for special wood. A few weeks ago I looked up a guy to sharpen four very nice old Disston backsaws. He charged me $4.50 each. I quickly sold two. Now I am buying up as many saws as possible. This week it is old Stanley Pocket levels. Last week I had never seen one. I suggest you take the saws and equipment you have and start doing something with them. There are a lot "woodworkers" collecting new equipment, and trying to get that perfect shop, but do not make anything, or a living at it. I say if you don't use it, get rid of it. There are just too many things to build to worry about the layout, duct work, etc.
since it's a hobby, have fun!
other hobbies, like boating, can be even more expensive so enjoy it for what it is...
generally at this level, a tool is bought for a specific need or anticipated need, not for a photo op for a ww magazine...
if you bought a cnc i'd question the reasoning, but all other purchases are basically fair game, as long as your wife gets a jewelry box or rocking chair...
Since you plan to get into this soup for the long haul, here are my simple suggestions:
1. Find a nearby Woodcraft store, and tell them your wishes. They can assist with not only the tool selection decisions, but offer classes as well.
2. Join other woodworking forums to gain a cross-section of ideas, tips and buying suggestions that will be a big help. Layout of tools/shops is a personal decision, but these forums and some books will lead the way.
3. Tool selection: get the best you can afford. Lots of us have regrets in some of the tools we have purchased over the years. A good quality tool will not only provide satisfactory results consistently, but are safer as well. I can still count to 10.
4. And don't forget to get some safety equipment as well. Some folks will consider the SawStop table saw a safety item. Worth considering.
Good luck and watch those fingers.
Hi edsea, After working wood for the past 40 years ...... buy the best tools you can afford. Table saw, jointer, planer. 1, 2, 3, . It's a pleasure to start a project with straight, square stock. Even with curved work it's nice to be able to register the piece if need be.
Have Fun, Paul
Ed: What a great position to be in! Retired, knowledgeable in general, sufficient funds, space to work, know where you want to go (more or less). Here is what I did; retired, sat on my butt for two years, jumped up one day and said out loud: What about the woodworking you always wanted to do more of? I knew right then I was going to be busy, my wallet was going to get lighter and I was going to have a ball getting all the neat tools, bits, blades, how to books. I was going to set up shop (already had a general purpose shop) for woodworking, add more lighting and power, build a lumber rack, read through the books and pick some projects that interested me. Now a couple of years later I'm enjoying myself, building tables for the family and friends (I'm kinda stuck on tables?) built a nice window for my home office and next comes a nice cabinet for my wife. I may have bought a few more tools and router bits then I need but I'll get around to using all of it sooner or later. Like others more knowledgeable then myself have said: tablesaw, jointer, planer, bandsaw unless you plan to do it all by hand tools. Good lighting and a desk or drafting table to draw on, best quality layout tools...........
Have fun, Duke
"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
WOW, thanks to all of you that have responded to my initial long drawen out question!! I never expected so many of you to share your thoughts and experiences to the extent that you did. It makes me think that this woodworking hobby is a little more than meets the eye which is really great. I wanted to give you some feedback and at least let everyone know that I am carefully reading all of your replies, and I continue to learn something from each of them. As a result of this thread and a whole lot of soul searching that i have been doing, I have sort of a plan to proceed -- it will likely get modified as it is implemented which is the neatest attribute to retirement (I have learned that spare time is not part of retirement as everyone that I know and am related to thinks I have unlimited time so therefore I am left with a full schedule). Here is the current plan:
1) I am going to wait awhile before buying the jointer and bandsaw that I thought I needed to get started -- I do still need them but I have enough to proceed initially without them.
2) I am going to start with two activities in parallel, one is to do the initial setup of my shop; two is to start a series of classes.
3) I am setting up the shop in a corner of a 40' x 60' steel builiding I have. I have an office and a bathroom built in one corner, the woodshop will be next to that in an area that is about 20' x 20'. I just installed a woodstove, rough 220/110 wiring is in, I am about to panel the walls with pegboard (or sheetrock?) Will rebuild/refurbish a couple of workbenches, install more lighting, etc. etc.
4) As some of you suggested, taking some classes has many advantages. Not the least of them being that after 50 years of "woodworking" it is about time I learned how to do it. As you rightly said, it will allow me to experience real woodworking and really reaffirm how much I enjoy it. I live in a rather remote area of Northern Calif so I started searching for some classes --nothing locally, found a woodcraft store about and hour and a half drive from here but they didn't seem to have much scheduled. Then I hit the mother lode (at least I think I did). I spend time in Alameda, CA and have a place to stay there (a boat that is another time consumer). They have a store called the Japan Woodworker, at their store there is a woodworker academy (http://www.woodworkeracademy.com). They have a series of classes (Jumpstart Fundamentals 1 thru 4) as well as many other classes and a fantastic collection of machines and handtools to use. I am now in the process of trying to get into these classes ASAP.
5) When I get the shop ready, and complete a few classes, I will start buying the tools I need. Some of you suggested looking at the many good quality used tools that are on the market -- industrial quality etc. While I think that is wise, I probably will stay with new stuff. I spent most of my life so far buying used cars, used boats, used everything and I love a good deal. But, I am now learning to appreciate new things and I don't have the time or energy to deal with finding and researching a good used buy, fixing it up, etc. etc. It may happen, but I'll likely try to find tools that are new, are good quality and that I think will meet or exceed my needs--your help has been great in this area and I will continue to use the forum for this search.
6) Then I'll try to figure out what to build??
Thanks again to all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences and your advice. Ed
Praise for your cleverness! I highly recommend pegboard on the walls, at least from 4 feet to 8 feet above the floor. I believe the decision to buy new tools is a good one also. Most used stationary power tools fetch prices that are way too high plus you usually don't get instructions and a parts list. New prices these days are very good also, so don't wait too long. Best of luck!Cadiddlehopper
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