Replies

1. 
   MBL | Apr 06, 2005 06:51pm | #1

   Dear Adastra,

   The INVERTED pin router is another dimension in router use.

   It makes many, many difficult tasks possible, and many rather unsafe tasks safe.

   What you mention concerning the stress being shared by the guide pin relates to safety and accuracy of the cut, and is one of many advantages of the scheme.

   -mbl-

2. 
   RickL | Apr 06, 2005 07:15pm | #2

   Pin routers are great. Used them a lot in my early days in the factories. These were large 10 hp machines with 24" x 36" tables. There  isn't much published about them. FWW barely touched on the subjectin probably the only article they did on the subject many years ago.  Some machines are only covered by being in the trades and learning it first hand. There's quite a few machines you can't find actual how to manuals for. Pretty versatile machines but I couldn't say enough in a brief paragraph. ShopFox has a small bench mount model that's affordable to experiment with.

   You can't build one as good as the ShopFox  for the money. I've got one of the heavier ones I picked up for $200 made by Woodtek. $2000 machine that needed a few repairs. Basically the same as the Grizzly G8030

   http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G0587&gid=0FF0A9F8-E94A-4D74-AAF5-1F3C4DF5B1E1&site=grizzly

   Grizzly G0587 overarm router

   What exactly do you want to know about using a pin router? I've done all kinds of template and copy work. Ours had tilting tables so that added another option most pin routers don't have.  There's pros and cons to having the bit above or below. Personally  I like to see what and where the bit is working. A lexan guard keeps the fingers clear plus you make any fixtures with handles far enough from ther cutter.

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   Edited 4/6/2005 12:22 pm ET by rick3ddd

   
   

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   Edited 4/6/2005 12:25 pm ET by rick3ddd

1. 
   adastra | Apr 06, 2005 09:10pm | #4

   Yes, inverted pin router is what I was thinking of. I don't know advantages of either design, but inverted would be more familiar. However it looks like an overhead could do a plunge cut which could be useful.Mainly what I need pattern work for is doing legs and chair parts. Most of what I do involves curves and I need reliable, small shop efficient ways of doing it. I prefer to follow a template attached to a workpiece rather than follow a line. I like repeatability and find it a lot less fatiguing to use templates as guides rather than following a line by sight.What I like to do is attach a template to a workpiece rough it on the bandsaw with a pattern jig and then take it to a bearing guided cutter to clean it up. Just thought there might be advantages to eliminating the bearing cutter. Might improve quality of cut and safety as well as possible savings with cutters. Thought I might even switch to a spiral cutter and not have to be as concerned about snapping the bit.Eventually I would want to go with a shaper and power feed but that isn't going to happen for at least eighteen months.I found the Shop Fox benchtop but am wondering about what is useful with the pneumatic feed of the router head. Is that an advantage in shaping outside edges at all? Hope you are patient with my curiousity, just am unfamiliar with this tool.I knew that were more common in industrial situations just haven't been in a shop that uses it.ThanksCould you give a little more info.?

1. 
   Tao | Apr 06, 2005 11:02pm | #5

   I had an 9 HP SCMI pin router in one of the factories that I ran.  It had an automatic feed and tilting table. It was good for cutting out small parts, doing pattern routing and cutouts.  I don't think much of the lighter ones on the market because they don't offer a whole lot of rigidity, which is very important.  The Osrud inverted pin routers look pretty interesting, but I never have used one, and don't know anyone who has, so can't comment.

   I will say, however, that unless you are doing fretwork or panel routing or some such on your chairs, that a shaper with a straight cutter and a rub collar would be a lot more suitable for the kind of work you describe.  In my shops, the shapers did everything they could, and we only used pin routers for the things a shaper could not do. (A 2 spindle shaper would be even better, but I'm trying to be practical.) 

   A 3 or 4 inch diameter shaper cutter is going to cut a lot faster and give a MUCH better finish than 1/2" bit in a pin router ever would, and you don't have to worry about bit breakage, or having parts walk loose from vibration. Email me and I'll give you a little tutorial on shaper jigs for chair parts.  I've done a ton of them.

   Pin routers have been pretty much completely supplanted by CNC machines of late, so they might be available pretty cheap.  A quick check showed industrial pin routers in the $1000 to $3500 range.  You can pick up a used Delta HD shaper today for $650.00 without even shopping around, and it will do a lot better job on your parts than a pin router would.  You can run just as small parts on a shaper as on a pin router.  It's all in the jig design.  No power feed needed for this, either.  They're mostly good for straight work, and could wait if you're not doing a lot of panel and sticker work.

   Michael R

1. 
   adastra | Apr 07, 2005 01:43am | #7

   I'll keep this exchange on the board in case someone might benefit from it.We used a bearing rub collar on a shaper in the Oregon shop. Used it to do chair legs and rockers using a pattern power feed. The kind with one big wheel so it tracks odd shapes. For doing even the small runs (12-36 chairs) the power feed was great. Feed it through, turn it around and feed it through again. None of the parts were taller than 1 3/4" though. Used the same cutter setup with a carriage to cut some of the back and crest rails as well as front aprons. These could be as tall as 3" and involved a carriage with the pattern built into it with some toggle clamps to hold the piece. Still had to cut most of the waste on the bandsaw but could trim the last 1/16" or so on the shaper. Was fairly stable. Built them double sided so you could get the inside/outside curve on the same jig. However it did involve doing the inside curve first and then reinserting on the other side of the jig for the outer curve. This was done to make the jig wide enough for stability. Was too tippy if you tried to get both sides of a 1" thick part that was 3" tall. I never had a serious kick using these techniques but a shopmate had a kick that blew out the stop on the carriage but he was unhurt. Other than having the s**t scared out of him.We only used the router table for shapes the shaper cutter had too large a radius to reach.I'm interested in your experience with shaper jigs for chair parts, would like to compare it to my limited experiece. If its too involved for the messageboard then I'll take it off the group.Thanks for the input.

2. 
   oella | Jan 08, 2006 04:46pm | #11

   Hi,  just read your reply regarding a pin router, anyway you seem to strike me as one with real  knowledge in equipment, I inherited some old rockwell delta equip and now want to purchase a shaper to help make cabinets-

   I am not sure whether I should just buy a $800 bridgeport 2 hp spindle shaper or buy a heavy duty 5hp 3 ph at auction or used-

   Can the production shapers accept a chuck for 1/2 router bits do you know?  any advice regarding shapers is appreciated. 

   thanks

    

   Dave

1. 
   RickL | Jan 08, 2006 05:04pm | #12

   The standard HD Delta takes a router collet. I reaaly consider this to be medium sized shaper. The problem is it's too slow to do a really good job. Routers are double the speed of a shaper.
   Bridgeports are nice but limited in a woodshop. Speeds are too slow.

2. 
   RickL | Apr 06, 2005 11:16pm | #6

   The pneumatics are to raise and lower the head. It's a lot simpler to use pneumatics than to rig up a mechanical linkage which is common on a lot of the older big machines here it has a base to put the linkage.

   "One" of the nice things about pin routers is to be able to copy things. You need the head to go up and down in a fraction of a second to do internal cut outs. Picture simple spoked wheel for a tea cart with all it's internal cut outs.

   Plus with one bit and different sized guide pins you can do simple rabbetts by only changing the guide pin. It's really quite sophisticated as to what you can do with a pin router. I've used the overhead type more than the inverted and can make either do what I want. The tilting table of the over head allows you to get different profiles with on bit. A straight bit can do chamfers etc.

   On the big machines some of the heads float so you add another element to the mix. The pneumatic activated heads on the Grizzly, Shop Fox and WoodTek machines do not float but it might be doable with some tinkering and adding a guide shoe under the head and modifying the pneumatics.

   The Veritas might be a possible introductory into the pin router for the money.

   Are you familiar with pattern cutting on the bandsaw?  Then there are pattern sanding techniques but this works fine on simpler shapes. You can certainly do more intricate shapes with the pin router.

   Also the pin router has a turret depth stop to rout at different depths. On template can be made to do a lot of things by changing the size of the guide pin or even as simple as raising the pin to pick up a different profile in the template.

   Woodwiz brings up some good points as well. The CNC has repalced the pin router in large production shops. We had a similar SCMI pin router that Woodwiz described. They are still around in the small shops and I know of an aircraft fabrication facility that used a pin router on aluminum so they are still being used. The interesting thing about woodworking is there are many different ways to do the same thing.

   Edited 4/6/2005 4:24 pm ET by rick3ddd

   Edited 4/6/2005 4:46 pm ET by rick3ddd

2. 
   patternmaker | Apr 08, 2005 02:36pm | #8

   Rick: I cut my teeth in the early forties making tooling for the pin routers at the Stinson Aircraft co.They were used to do all kinds of slots and other cuts on aluminum extrusions for aircraft production. Usually The pin in the table and the cutter diameter were the same and in perfect alignment. There was another machine called a radial arm router. It was used to profile the edges and make cutouts in large sheets of aluminum stock,such as wing and tail coverings.It had a guide bushing attached to the router head thru which the cutter passed.This required a set back to be needed in the guiding edge of the tooling.¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Work safely¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Thank you,Mr.Croney,where ever you may be.

   Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

1. 
   RickL | Apr 08, 2005 03:21pm | #9

   I'm well aware of the different industries that used the pin routers and radial arm routers. A couple of machines that can be picked up for cheap as few people know about them or how to use them. It's like stroke sanders. Sort of kicked to the wayside but still a viable tool especially since you can buy them next to nothing at times. Also used in woodworking and the metal industry, custom metal fab shops and casting shops. Great for plaques.

1. 
   patternmaker | Apr 08, 2005 08:40pm | #10

   Rick: Before my retirement,I had a stroke sander.They are great for finish and touch up work. Just a little pressure on a soft pad puts a polished finish on flat work of all kinds.
   I used mine,with shaped blocks and a scored belt.to sand fairly wide mouldings.When I had to be satisfied with a basement workshop,this sander was one of the pieces that,due to space requirements, I am having to do without.Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Thank you,Mr.Croney,where ever you may be.

   Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

3. 
   forestgirl | Apr 06, 2005 07:17pm | #3

   "Lee Valley makes an arm as an add-on so it may be hard to beat."  No kidding.  At $139, it seems a hands-down winner, and worth not having the aggravation of building one.  I like the inverted design, seems safer than having the router on top.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)