Replies

1. 
   nikkiwood | Aug 29, 2004 06:07am | #1

   Because of the sun exposure, I would suggest anything with UV inhibitors.

   You could use an exterior poly or a spar varnish, but they will deteriorate fairly rapidly with the sun exposure; and this means it will start to flake off. Then, in order to look right , you have to strip off the old finish before you recoat.

   One of my favorites for this type of application is a mixture of oil and varnish. The main advantage is you can simply reapply the concoction (down the line) when the finish starts to wear away.

   I have a recipe which I have given out here several times. If you want it, let me know, and I'll post it again.

1. 
   lesleypf | Aug 29, 2004 07:38am | #2

   Thanks for your quick response. I would be interested in your concoction. I have only used off the shelf products so far, with varying results. (But I majored in chemistry decades ago, so I am willing to cook up a mixture.)

   I am surprised that the exterior products are prone to flaking. I thought the UV protection, etc. would make it more durable. Plus, I am hoping not to have to redo this job too often since it entails a lot of work with removing the windows etc.

   Can you wipe on your product?

1. 
   nikkiwood | Aug 30, 2004 09:53pm | #10

   Les,

   A wipe on mixture can be made with any number of combinations contianing oil, varnish, and paint thinner.

   I like the one below because the materials are easily available (both are Minwax products), and both contain UV inhibitors -- which makes the concoction suitable for any exterior application, or interior surfaces exposed to sunlight:

   THE MIX:

   Minwax Clear Shield (2 parts), with Minwax Helmsman Spar Varnish (1 part), with enough paint thinner to make it easy to wipe (unsually about 1 part).

   Wipe the mix on, let it set for 10-15 minutes, and wipe off the excess. If the material is stickly, you have let it set up too long.

   Let each coat dry overnight, rub down with a Sotch Brite (followed with a tack cloth), and reapply the mixture. About four coats should do the job, but on surfaces that will get more wear (like a window sill), I would probably do 5-6 coats.

   Years down the line, when the finish starts to wear, just clean off the dirt, rub down with Scotch Brite, and reapply one or two coats of the same mixture.

   Hope this helps. Do remember, though, there is nothing magical about this particular combination. You can even make a wiping varnish by thinning down any kind of poly with paint thinner to a wiping consistency. Or -- you can add any kind of poly to an oil, and cutting it with a paint thinner.

   Have fun....................

1. 
   lesleypf | Sep 11, 2004 07:58am | #11

   Hi Nikki,

   Thanks for the recipe! One question: is Minwax Helmsman Spar Varnish the same as Helmsman Spar Urethane? I could only find the latter at my local Home Depot. Also, should I mix the entire batch of wipe-on finish all at once (perhaps in a gallon container) or make smaller batches at a time (and risk being inconsistent with the mix)?

   I must admit that I am getting a bit confused by all the different terms: oil, varnish, poly. Can you suggest any links that explain these terms and also relate them to common products on the market? (Since the manufacturers seem to add to the confusion!)

   Thanks,Les

1. 
   nikkiwood | Sep 11, 2004 10:24pm | #12

   The Helmsman I refered to was indeed the urethane.

   Don't worry about being precise with the formula; you should feel free to mix batches as you use it. I diddle with the proportions all the time.

   You're not alone in being perplexed about all this. I still think Bob Flexner's 10 year old book (UNDERSTANDING WOOD FINISHING) does the best job in sorting out the confusion. He doesn't answer all the questions, but at least he will get you moving in the right direction.

2. 
   lesleypf | Sep 12, 2004 07:17pm | #13

   Thanks for the clarification. After reading more posts about finishing, there seems to be a debate about putting an oil product on top of shellac.  If I understand correctly, the shellac I am using to seal the pine will prevent the oil from absorbing into the wood.

   Since I need to seal the pine to keep any more resin from oozing out, would you recommend a different top coat? Perhaps the varnish alone. Would I still be able freshen the finish without sanding it all off? That is big selling point for me because it is such a big hassle to prep the windows.

   Thanks so much for helping me sort this out. I'm hoping if I do a good job once I won't need to deal with it again for a long time!

3. 
   nikkiwood | Sep 12, 2004 08:13pm | #14

   I am stretching beyond my experience here, because I have never tried to use this product over a surface that has been sealed with shellac (dewaxed). The point of using an oil, of course, is to allow it to soak into the wood itself -- which is obviously not possible if the surface has been already sealed with shellac.

   Unless oozing sap is a hellacious problem (lots of spots on lots of windows), personally, I would skip the shellac sealer. If you eventually find an ooze here and there, it is easy enough to wipe it away with either alcohol or paint thinner with no damage to the finish.

   BTW, with this oil/poly concoction, even though it is a "wipe-on finish," I do apply it with a brush (and then wipe it down after 10 minutes or so, after it has begun to set up slightly). I find it easy to apply an even amount of the the mix on the surface with a brush, and I find it much faster as well.

   Also, when wiping, remember that you you should not "scrub the surface" -- but wipe it lightly to insure that you are leaving behind a thin, even layer. You are looking for a surface build here, and wiping too vigorously defeats this objective.

   All of this is about as easy as it gets; after a single window, I am sure you will get the hang of it. As Nike is fond of saying, "just do it." It is really very difficult to mess up.

2. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 29, 2004 05:45pm | #3

   Les,

   Start with the pine resin/sap. Clean it off with naphtha and seal it in with shellac. Shellac is the best sealer for a variety of "problems" including sap. Use dewaxed shellac under a water-based finish to ensure good adhesion.

   For UV protection, you do want a finish rated for exterior use. The UV blockers will slow the damage to the wood and finish.

   If you want to use a water-based finish for the windows and apply by brush or wiping, a product like Target Coatings Oxford Brushing Varnish is a good choice (click on the link to see the product description).

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard

1. 
   lesleypf | Aug 29, 2004 09:05pm | #6

   Paul,

   Thanks for your suggestions. My local Home Depot has a limited selection of finishing products. So who's your favorite supplier - online or physical store? I see I can order the Target product direct, but the unwaxed shellac may be harder to find. (I think the last time I bought shellac at HD there was no indication if it was waxed or unwaxed!)

   Also, can I use mineral spirits instead of naphtha to clean off the pine resin. (I am trying to keep my collection of flammable fluids down to a minimum!)

   Les

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 29, 2004 10:44pm | #8

   Les,

   I used to order my finishes and have them shipped, but a local finishing supplier that delivers started carrying Target. Check Target's list of distributors to see if they have someone close to you. The only finish I really like from the hardware store is Waterlox varnish; my local Ace/True Value carries it.

   Zinsser makes a dewaxed shellac called "Seal Coat" that a lot of paint stores are stocking. Your local hardware/home center may even have it. Target has a water-based shellac that you can use if you want to stick with the water-based products.

   If you have any type of alcohol on hand, that'll dissolve the sap. Even rubbing alcohol.

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 29, 2004 07:20pm | #4

   My windows are manufactured with hi UV coatings. This effectively prevents UV exposure inside. I thought all the Pella windows were made this way too.

   If so, you need not worry about usng an exterior finish on the inside of the window trim. My new house was trimmed out in pine with a coat of Zinsser primer then standard oil based paint.

   Go to your paint store and find out what is recommended at a sealer coat under the finish you plan. In most cases, pine will ooze sap and a clear sealer coat like shellac is recommended. But, unless it is a dewaxed shellac, you will not be able topcoat it with a varnish containing polyurethane.

   In my experiance, waterborne finishes are not as durable as oil based but some have lots of luck with them. In general they are much thinner and do tend to run. Application on vertacle surfaces can be a challange but wiping on is not always sucessful either.

   Howie.........
1. 
   lesleypf | Aug 29, 2004 09:18pm | #7

   Hi Howie,

   I ordered my windows without the typical Low-E coatings because I live in an area where I need to maximize solar heat gain.

   So tell me more about the potential challenges of a wipe-on finish... I have never tried it before, but it sure seems easier than using a brush. Then again, perhaps I just need the right product and the right technique to get a good brush finish. Any tips?

   Thanks,Les

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 30, 2004 06:33pm | #9

   Les, mineral spirits will dissolve pine sap. I just sawed up three pine trees that came down in Charley. I was covered in sap as were the saws and other tools. Mineral spirits cleaned up everything very nicely.

   As to wipe on, I do not do waterborne finishes very often. I like oil based much better for hand application and particularly for wipe on. Most of my film finishing is wipe on. This, inspite of the fact than I have spent hours spraying in a shop I used to be involved with.

   Brushing waterborne on vertical surfaces is a bit of a challenge. Most tend to put too much finish in their brush. You need to learn the correct amount of finish and then "flow" it on with minimal back and forth brushing. You quickly have to go back and catch drips.Howie.........

4. 
   WayneL5 | Aug 29, 2004 08:54pm | #5

   My house had over 1000 feet of pine trim, finished with dyes and lacquer by a professional furniture refinisher, and it looked beautiful.  Of all that thousand feet, one board oozed sap into little sticky beads.  Denatured alcohol took it off quickly and completely with no harm to the finish.  I don't know if it would cause sap to soak into unfinished wood, affecting subsequent finishing.  I suggest doing some testing on scrap.

   I don't know if UV inhibitors would be necessary.  But, I use Minwax Helmsman for most of the furniture I build because it's a really durable finish and is more flexible than standard urethanes.  It contains UV inhibitors.  All varnish-like finishes seem to produce bubbles on the first coat.  I don't know the reason, perhaps it's the wood outgassing.  Anyway, later coats usually produce nearly none.  Use a good brush and don't work it too hard -- just lay it on and smooth it with minimal brushing.  Very slight thinning help, too.