Hi Folks,
I’m making a case with the sides mortised and tenoned into the legs (cabriole) at the corners.
My question is, which is the best grain orientation – vertical or horizontal with regard to seasonal movement. I also plan on pinning the M/T’s with riven oak pins.
The inside surfaces I plan on finishing with shellac, the outside I haven’t yet decided on a finish.
A major concern of mine is expansion/contraction from seasonal changes in temp/humidity. The piece will reside in our home in northern NH. Fairly wide swings seasonally.
Any/all suggestions will be most welcome.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob,
Most Queen Anne case pieces have their ends with grain running horizontally, and tenoned into the vertical grain of the legs. So, seasonal movement is an issue, and as a result most of the old examples have split ends as a result. (Shoulda used Breck!) Typical construction involves cutting multiple mortises in a row down the length of the leg, and putting an interrupted tenon (series of tenons) on the case end. Sometimes, a shallow (1/4-3/8" deep, x tenon thickness) groove is run down the leg (in line with the mortises) as well, and the haunches between the tenons are not pared back to the shoulders, so they engage in the groove and help with alignment.
The question then becomes, do you glue all the tenons, and risk a split, or just one or two; and if leaving some unglued, which ones? Gluing the one(s) centrally located in the end will divide the movement in two, but is that what you want? Or you could glue the topmost tenon(s), and let the rest float in overlong mortises. What happens to the ears, or kneeblocks that extend the legs and finish their curves at the tops of the cabriole? If glued to the case end, they will rise and fall with the seasons. If glued to the legs, under the ends, the will show a gap, or be pushed off by the movement of the ends. Hm, if glued at the bottom, the kneeblocks are safe, but the attachment of the case top may be problematic. This may be overcome by attaching the top to drawer framing (mortised between the legs) instead of the case end. And quartersawn stock for the case ends would help reduce movement. If pinning the tenons, dry fitting and drilling for the pins, and then dis-assembling the joint and elongating the holes in the tenons, will let the pins hold the joint together, and still allow for movement.
Va Craftsman, a shop where I once worked, built a highboy whose ends were vertical grain, edge glued with a tongue and groove joint for alignment, to the legs. It was the only QA piece they built that used this construction, and I was told it reproduced the construction of an original. Of course, provision for the whole ends' swelling and shrinking must be allowed for in the attachment of drawer framing in this instance, as you would do for a solid end chest of drawers.
Ray
Ray,
My inclination is to float the top and glue/pin the bottom preserving the integrity of the kneeblocks.
I have some ideas about how to go about it but they need more gray mater applied first.
Thanks for the insights, most helpful. I definitely do not want the sides to split/crack. I also thought about running the grain vertically on the sides and am strongly considering this. It would potentially eliminate a lot of problems but also introduce problems with connection of the top.
More gray matter need to be applied.
Oh what fun this is!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Last year I built a Chippendale dressing table and had the same problem. In the end, I just glued them all because that's what the old ones did.
I certainly know this may crack sometime in the future, but I'm ok with it. If it were for a customer I would probably glue the bottom as you said to keep the knee block connections intact and hide the potential gap at the top with molding.
I don't think I would go vertical, to me it would not look right, even if Ray says there are period examples of this (he outta know).
Cal
Well Cal,
That was hearsay. All I saw was the repro, that I was told was a copy. Wouldn't hold up to Perry Mason's X-examination.
There I go, arguing again. With myself, yet!
Hope you and all your kin are well.
Ray
PS Reminds me of Wallace Nutting's remark about a spurious piece's existance. He said it was like the preacher's speaking of the children of an old maid, at her funeral:"If such there be, we have not seen them!"
Edited 9/13/2007 1:24 pm ET by joinerswork
Ray, I love the old commentary by Nutting. Vol III is a great read!
The Hobbs are doing well. We are trying to get our January trip to NC organized to build a Charleston Double Chest at my Dad's (same group as you met earlier this year). Way too much work for one week, but we'll give it a run.
Keeping yourself busy? CH
Cal,
Yeah, gearing up for the Waterford Fair. Bet your dad and mom miss going to that! I'm just hoping for a dry show; last two yrs were raining cats and dogs :-((
Take care,
Ray
Hi Calvin,
I just recently finished Vol. I & II, and am about ½ way through Vol. III.
He certainly has some entertaining tales from the past. Totally agree, his writings are not only informative but entertaining to say the least.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:
I've built several Queen Ann pieces over the last 6 - 7 years glued tight with the grain running horizontally and so far none have cracked. They were all mahogany, which is relatively stable. They may not stay that way over the next century or two, but by then they'll be antiques and the cracks will be considered a mark of authenticity. That aside, you could consider using plywood with a thick veneer running horizontally, using floating tenons. The thick veneer will provide a little leeway for scraping them level with the legs, allow the edges to be eased, and look right if you need to leave a little exposed at the top (for a highboy) where the molding is applied. If you are shaping the bottom, some of the ply will be exposed but a little artful staining would take care of it. I think only purists would object.
Tom
Tom,
The panels for the sides and top are already made of solid wood so I will use them instead of plywood. I want to use traditional joinery as much as possible and solid panels.
Also this wood holds a special meaning to me. It came from my deceased parents property. Every time we look at it we will be reminded of all the good times we had.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Wouldn't a vertical grain (front rail at least) rail have to be cut from an incredibly wide board?
If you have a board in the shop that wide, I wouldn't use it for rail stock.
PB,
I'm sorry but I don't understand.
If you're talking about the sides, they are not raised panels, just solid wood panels glued up from wide boards. There are no styles or rails. Obviously I'm missing something but I don't know what it is.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I was wondering too....
If you needed a board 30 inches long, but wanted the grain to run vertically, then how wide do think the board you cut the workpiece from would need to be?
Pan, and Taun,
Bob referred to "sides" in his originalpost, which I took to mean "ends", not rails. Horizontal rails won't be a source of concern over expansion and contraction with seasonal changes in humidity, you're right.
Ray
ALL,
Is it a case of semantics or am I using the wrong terminology?
When I look at a case I in front of me I see a front, a back, a top and bottom and two sides. The only rails I see are on the front along with stiles.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/14/2007 1:05 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Horizontal rails will run crossgrain to the cab. legs, at least if the grain on the rails is, well, horizontal and I don't see how it could be anything else unless one was willing to make rails from some really wide boards in order for the grain to run up and down.
But I'm getting dizzy.
Edited 9/14/2007 2:12 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Duh on me!
You're dizzy? I fell off my chair! Thanks for the input.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/14/2007 2:27 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Why not cut a sliding dovetail instead, and pin it just in te center of the panel or side? That's how I do all my solid case joinery here in the rain forest.
But qsawn H. Mahog or an equally stable wood solves a lot of those problems by itself. Oak and others move severalfold as much seasonally.
Edited 9/14/2007 2:44 pm by BobSmalser
Bob, my wife and I have been thinking of picking up and moving to the Mt. Washington area of NH. What's it like now? What's the air quality like? It's been years since I've been and my wife has never visited NH. We're vacationing there at Christmas, but I'd love to hear it from the horse's mouth.
Edited 9/14/2007 2:50 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Charles?, :-)
I'm about 90 miles north of there. Today up here it's 73°F, kinda windy (14 mph)but sunny. Humidity is 51%. This time of the year it gets down to around 40° at night; had frost on the windshield a couple times last week! No skeeters to contend with!
In the Mt. Washington Valley area (Conway) it typically is 6-10° warmer year round.
Ideal time to be in the woodshop. No heat required, yet.
The foliage hasn't started but will in the next couple of weeks. Spot trees here and there are full bloom now.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/14/2007 3:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 9/14/2007 3:01 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Sounds heavenly.
I just looked at the article you mentioned. I'd built it just like Randal did (his method represents orthodoxy) - multiple tenons instead of one large one. The lower case sides and rails do in fact have the grain running horizontally so a crossgrain situation does arise in the joinery between the sides, rails, and the vertical cab. legs. I'd do the multiple tenons, make sure they fit well, and just drop a dab or two of Elmer's white glue on them. I don't usually leave any tenon unglued but that doesn't mean that leaving the upper and lower one unglued isn't the best strategy (how about that for a fudge?).
I imagine that my wife and I would be quite an anomaly in New Hampshire - the both of us being native Southerners.
I imagine that my wife and I would be quite an anomaly in New Hampshire - the both of us being native Southerners.
I don't really think so. I was born and raised here. Left for Boston to pursue my career (computers) after high school '64. Returned back in '95 and my little town had not grown all that much.
In the 12 years since I returned it has grown nearly 50% and not just because of long cold winters! :-) Many new faces in town.
Real estate is reasonable, taxes are, well taxes are............everywhere! Real estate in the Mt. Washington Valley is expensive! But these are regional things and you might find differently. What I mean is they might be a lot less than where you are from.
http://www.furnituremasters.org/auction.cfm
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/14/2007 3:25 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
ALL,
What I'm planning on doing for the case construction is based on the joinery details Randall O'Donnell used to build his Curly Cherry High Boy - Part 1 in FWW #117.
I may modify it slightly, i.e. dovetail the top rail on the front into the tops of the legs but am not sure yet.
Hope this clears things up.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/14/2007 2:51 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
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