Hello,
I use diamond stones (ranging from 400 to 1200 grit) and a jig to hone my Stanley Nr.4 hand plane blade. My process involves starting with a 25-degree primary bevel on a bench grinder, followed by refining the edge on the diamond stones at a 30-degree angle. I aim to remove approximately 1 to 2 mm of the blade edge as I progress through the stone grits. Once this is done, I remove the jig, flip the blade and utilize the ruler trick (slightly angling the blade) to repeat the process on all stone grits, thereby eliminating any burrs.
Subsequently, I go to a strop (just a piece of pine with some leather on it) coated with Dialux green compound with 20 strokes. As a beginner I again use jig at this stage so the right angle is maintained. The blade’s back is also polished during this process. Even though I’ve seen numerous YouTube videos depicting identical methods, I’m unable to effortlessly slice hanging paper with my blade. The blade is just not sharp enough and causes me further problems down the road.
I’m seeking insights on what I might be doing wrong.
Thanks.
Replies
How long have you been practicing the art of sharpening? If just starting out, please be patient. It takes time to learn how.
My 35 years experience tells me to focus on three key things.
1. Flatten the back using finest grit.
2. Grind bevel just until you feel a burr.
3. Remove burr again using finest grit.
Whether you use diamond plates, ceramic, wheels, water stones, sand paper or abrasive pastes, the back must be flat, the bevel must be ground until you feel a burr and the burr must be removed.
There are a zillion opinions on best methods and materials but they all must arrive at the same place to be sharp.
Oh and setting up your plane takes practice as well. And did I mention proper planing technique? Practice. Forgive yourself. You’ll get there.
Famous YouTuber Paul Sellers also uses diamond stones and also finishes on a "super fine" 1200 grit that leaves grooves in the steel. He recognizes the blade still needs work so, like you, he takes it to the strop to polish out those grooves left by the diamond stone.
And he pushes hard on the blade. He really leans into it as he strops 20 or 30 times.
Is this the method you are using? If so, are you putting massive stropping pressure like that on the tiny micro-bevel you've created on the back of the blade? That could be the problem.
If I were in your situation, I would add at least one water stone (maybe two) to final-hone the blade and then skip the strop. And I would never let the tiny back-bevel you've created touch a 1200 grit diamond stone.
If you really want to stick with diamond sharpening, you could use diamond lapping paste on a hard surface to final-hone the blade. Brian Boggs showed this method in FWW magazine a few years back.
Mike
Type/brand of steel could make a difference.
Some blades don't take as keen of an edge as others. If your goal is to slice paper, try a different method or different steel.
All my opinion, and from my own experience:
1: 1200 is not fine enough to get a polish. Go to 4000 at least, 8000 is better. Flatten your stones often.
2: Do the work to flatten the back and skip the ruler, it just introduces more places for things to go wrong.
3: A leather strop rounds over your edge because it compresses. If you feel you need to use honing compound (for a straight edge you don't) use it on a hard surface like MDF.
I use diamond stones through 8,000, then a Syderco unrefined ceramic stone. The Spyderco is finer than the 8,000 grit diamond. I use a L-N jig, and everything gets honed at 35 degrees.
1200 is way, way too coarse. Stropping just dubs the edges. The only thing I strop are carving tools.
Don't worry about cutting paper, arm hair, or anything else. Does it cut wood?
The blade is an old Stanley one.
I did a little test today. I went through all grits up to 1200, first I flattened the back and then the bevel.
I found some old piece of sandpaper (Silicon Carbide 1200/4000) and I got polished finish on the blade. I tested it and it was far more sharpen then usually.
Then I took it to a strop and... I just lost that sharpeness.
So I did everything again and this time I polished it further with the fine sand paper. No strop this time and it is sharper.
So I guess the last step on the strop gave the nice polished finish but somehow rounded the tip of the blade. Not sure what I did wrong, but it is not the angle because I did use the jig while stroping.
I have no idea what Silicon Carbide sandpaper actually is, but would try to find finer one, since this is the first time the blade is better sharpened. I guess I have to go to 8000 or 16000 grit anyway.
Sounds like you sorted out your problem. Go to higher grits and skip the strop. Congrats. I really like the methodological approach you took to solve this.
I use a Tormek. Cuts like a razor every time.
As others have said, sharpening takes practice. Part of this is actually knowing what a truly sharp blade feels like so it's a bit chicken and egg - it is stupendously hard to get a great edge without having the advantage of first experiencing one. If you still want to pursue the hand sharpening route, instead of doing the sensible thing and getting that Tormek, then see if you can get your hands on a properly sharpened blade, or preferably have a friend who knows how to do it show you. You CAN do it on your own, but it's easier and more fun with friends.
On the cost of the Tormek - I have easily spent more money on better tools, better systems, different stones, a bad tormek wannabe, gone back to sandpaper, bought diamonds - you get the picture - would have been far cheaper to start with the big T.
What I did to confirm I was getting sharp was I went to a Lie Nielsen tool event. I had Anne of All Trades sharpen my No 5 and then took it home and used it. Was working just as well as when I sharpened it. What you could possibly do is find an experience local woodworker you know and have them sharpen and see how it then performs. If you join a local woodworking club, you will find someone who can help you on this. Lots of ways to get to sharp and all work. As was said by Rob_ss, just need to know what sharp feels like/is.
Robss, That's the best argument for the tormek I've ever heard. I am going to sell my grizz slo-mo wet wheel (my version of the wannabe) and get the tormek. I bought my first festool a coupla years ago and soon had another, same sorta deal. Thanks.
Which model and wheels did you get and would you pick them again?
I got the T8 with the standard wheel. Also bought the woodturners set as it's really easy to get truly razor edges on tools that way and it's good for reconditioning carving gouges.
It's actually faster to get to a guaranteed razor edge once you are used to it.
I agree with MJ post #4
I think the ruler "trick" is overrated and unnecessary.
The best advice on here is to practice. Flattening a plane blades back takes more time than you think. Much more. The better the blade and the better it was cared for, the shorter time it could take. You will try to talk yourself out of continuing, saying things like "maybe I'm doing it wrong" or "well, it's just the last little corner left, it's good enough".
Push through!
I don't find the ruler trick overrated at all. It saves all that time flattening plane blade backs. There's just no reason to spend all that time polishing a big chunk of the back. The edge is the only thing that counts.
Agreed - the "ruler trick" (the creation of a back bevel) makes it much easier to quickly get then keep (with a small amount of re-sharpening) a very good edge on a plane blade. As you yourself practice, I think, a very teeny back bevel even works with chisels, despite what the standard WW dogma says. :-)
Personally I prefer a more substantial back bevel on a plane blade that the ruler trick gives. It is a little more fussing to set up the initial edge and the bevels both sides but once you have it takes very little time to bring back the edge, despite having to work on both sides of the edge.
This bloke has written a good article (available here as a PDF in English):
https://www.fine-tools.com/pdf/sharpening-chisel-and-plane-blades.pdf
that looks at sharpening plane blades with a back bevel.
The fact is that both sides of an edge wear when the tool's used so if you don't have a dead flat and polished blade back so you can remove loads of metal off the main bevel side to get rid of the blade back wear, you need to use a back bevel of some sort. The ruler trick is the least back bevel you can make.
Even the ruler trick does need to have a blade back that's pretty flat. The back bevel produced can take out the potential rag in the edge caused by scratches on the back but it won't help if the blade back is concave or convex to any significant degree, as the back bevel won't be made across the whole of the edge.
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I find stropping a blade that's stopped being razor sharp in it's action does bring back the edge. You can do it two or three times before a more substantial treatment is needed to re-establish a fully sharp edge again. The trick is to strop soon (not when the blade is approaching blunt) and to avoid pressing the edge down into a soft substrate like leather, to avoid dubbing (rounding the sharp edge too much). Five to eight light strokes using green compound on chrome leather or an MDF block does it for me.
Lataxe
Unless it's a paring chisel that needs to be dead flat, I also put a teeny back bevel on bench chisels. It doesn't affect their utility at all. But don't tell everyone else -- the internet will explode.
Ha ha - I mentioned it in this very forum in about 2007 I think it was .... and got roundly told-orf for heresy. But the proof is in the pud; or, in this case, the ease of producing a very good chisel edge that works just as well as one without a teeny back bevel for all chiselling tasks.
In practice, even a paring chisel can have a very, very slight back bevel (enough to remove the wear bevel - the dubbing and micro-scratches from working - as the chisel loses sharpness) as long as that back bevel really is very tiny. It raises the edge above the plane of the chisel back by so small an amount that there's no obvious effect when paring other than that the edge is very sharp indeed.
When paring, the stuff to be pared-off is usually some degree higher than the part of the workpiece on which the flat back of the paring chisel is being jigged, so any teeny back bevel will leave an unpared amount too small to measure, see or even feel.
I agree with john_c2. Ruler trick works...just make sure it is a thin one. I, like him take my blades up to 8000 ...they are O2's from Ron Hock. I also use a L-N guide. I tried stropping in the past but found it ran the risk of rounding over the edge. Also BE SURE your stones are flat, particularly water stones. Chris Schwarz has an excellent book on this "Sharpen This" Lost Art Press.... Ron Hock's book "The Perfect Edge" is also a great resource.
I'll just say that I've taken some classes at North Bennet Street and elsewhere and none of the professional cabinetmakers that I learned from use the ruler trick. Really, once you flatten the first 1/2 inch or so of the back when you get the blade, you should be done with that. Just some light passes to take the burr off each time you resharpen the bevel. YMMV
Strop should be 60k grid, but I am not sure. So I would see once I am finished with diamons plates I would go to 3000/8000 water stone and then finish on the strop.
The problem is that I managed to blunt the edge using strop. So I am not sure how to hold the blade. Obviously I am having the wrong angle or I pushing to much on the strop so I produce rounding.
Per the Tormek comment above, that is one of the merits of the Tormek. You get a hollow grind, and the makes it easier to place the blade down on a leather strop w/o grinding the edge off. You learn to rock the blade slightly until it rests on the front and back edges of the bevel, and then strop. I personally don't often use the Tormek on plane blades, because it takes a long time, but for chisels I find the combo of the Tormek hollow grind and an oil stone a good way to stay sharp w/o spending a lot of time. For turning tools, I tend to use a slow speed dry grinder w/OneWay wolverine, but I have also used the Tormek to good effect.
I'm not sure why you are removing 1 to 2mm as you go through the stones. That's way more than needed probably by a couple of orders of magnitude.
I also started out with a set of diamond stones and a strop and was never fully satisfied with the results. I now use a set of the Norton water stones (1000, 4000, and 8000). Progressing through the three is quick and results in a sharp polished edge very quickly. I use the coarse diamond stone to flatten the water stones.
I suspect even the extra fine diamond stone I own wasn't fine enough and the strop wasn't able to smooth out the relatively large scratches. Likewise I think your 1200 grit stone isn't fine enough. As far as I know those are more appropriate as the final stone on kitchen knives where you want a bit of tooth to help slice some vegetable skins like tomatoes.
This subject draws crowds, EH? You can spend a lifetime getting to “The Best Method”that works for you.
Check out this video from David Weaver.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=99iJImnA-eg
It’s inexpensive, simple, easy and “It Works”!!!! Now I go from “not sharp enough” to “Ultra Sharp” in less than a minute, all by hand, not including removing and reinstalling the blade. However if you’re interested in using all kinds of “Guides, Waterstones, Strops, ETC.” I have a bunch of it for sale. I use the a single stone and the buffer for all my sharpening, including chisels, carving gouges, etc. It ain’t pretty, nor “elegant” but it works. I no longer worry about sharpening. Also, David weaver has several other sharpening video’s which he refer’s to as “Unicorn Sharpening”. His video’s are not to promote him or any particular products.
Here’s another link that explains the “Unicorn Method” more scientifically. https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/the-unicorn-sharpening-method/
Try it, all your sharpening issues will be solved and you’ll get to “worry” about other challenges in this “Against the Grain” world we call “WOODWORKING”.
Good luck and remember “No Blood on the Wood”.
Here’s an old link from FWW where D Weaver adds sensible value to this “Discussion”
https://www.finewoodworking.com/forum/unicorn-sharpening
I did watched a lot of videos on this topic since I do not have access to some woodworking shop.
So far I understand that it is not that important how the sharpness is archieved until lets say 1500 grit. It is honed to this point and this could be done with any means (water/oil stones, diamons stones, sandpaper, etc.)
However, the polishing is important either by stroping or using buff wheel. I did a little bit of watchmaking as a hobby, and when it comes to the polishing watch cases nothing beats the buff wheel (of course, case makers go even further and use different kinds of polishing paste, different buff wheels, etc.)
So I guess bringing the edge to about 1500 grit and trying to polish it using buff wheel is the next thing I will try.
Maybe I do not need water stones at all, if my diamons stones work fine until 1500 grit.
You're on the right track. I would not incorporate stropping, just the buffer. Stay with it and it will save you a ton of labor, $$'s, and yield more success. Good luck.
A buffing wheel or strop wraps around the edge as it polishes, degrading the edge and rounding the back out of flat. To see it, just drag a kitchen spatula across a couch cushion. Why do all that work to get sharp and throw it away? If you want a polished edge go to a finer and finer stone until you get there. My final grit (shapton) is 10,000.
The ruler trick was probbly invented by someone trying to recover from a strop or buffing wheel.
@MJ--- The key to success with the buffer is to "Not" to push the cutting edge into the wheel at a perpendicular angle, but at a 45 degree angle from the bottom of the wheel. Doing so does not affect the back. It "will" round the top of the bevel but not the edge and removes virtually all scratch marks leaving a cleaner stronger cutting edge but does not affect the bottom. This makes the cutting edge stronger. The rounding acts like a "Chip Breaker" which helps to give you cleaner cuts. You will find that you can make more cuts and cleaner cuts. Come on, give it a try. However, if you want, I have a couple of Shapton 16,000 I would gladly sell you. With the unicorn method I sharpen less often and get better results, especially in figured woods, and to me that's all that matters. More working wood than toiling with maintenance stuff.
PS: The drill sharpener works great. Thanks. Hope all is well.
So you actually "pull" the plane blade to you while maintaining 45 degrees to the floor, right? How hard do press on the buff wheel? Thanks.
Regarding pressure, you'll get the feel for it but don't be afraid to make firm contact. Just be sure to work on the bottom side of the wheel for safety reasons. This technique also works to touch up a blade without going to a stone. I keep my buffer on a bench while David prefers to have it on the floor. Both positions work. I also use the buffer to finish sharpening my kitchen knives.
Barbers seem to think strops are good for getting sharp blades.
The strop method works great, if you do it correctly.
The ruler "trick" works great, if you do it correctly too.
You can also sharpen an axe with a rock, and strop a blade with a suede shoe.
If you do it correctly.
Stopping a razor is completely different than stopping a woodworking tool. Razors don't slice the way our tools do, it's more of a scraping.
Hi Bob, hit me with a $# on email, I may take one of the 16k off your hands. Glad the drilldoc is working for you, In its drawer space now lives a nice little trim router.
I assume you have to reply to the last post otherwise your post will fall in the middle somewhere. Anywho, I think Rob Cosman's method is worth looking at for new comers.
“[Deleted]”
Here is the results using 600, 1000 and 1200 diamond stones, followed by buff wheel with green compound (old piece of Dialux I have). This is actually the thinnest shavings I got so far. The blade is really sharp, so far I never got to this level of sharpness.
Here are some test shavings: cherry, oak and pine from Stanley #4.
"Halleluiah". Can I have an AMEN!!!!!
NICE. 😁
Now you can put this task behind you and get on to the world of "Working in Wood" with less downtime for sharpening. Once your blades are sharpened you can go straight to the 1200 and then to the buffer for a dull blade or directly back to the buffer for a "touch up".
Thanks for giving it a try.
After working some time with hard wood (wild cherry) I wanted to sharpen again, so I went directly to the buffer.
Well, it did not work. It could be that I "arrived" too late to the buffer, once the blade was already dull.
So I went again to 600 and 1200 diamond plates and then to buffer. Worked like a charm, just like last time.
I guess next time I will try to go to 1200 plate and to buffer.
The problem that I have is that the secondary bevel is getting bigger and bigger. So at certain point of time I will need to cut primary bevel but I am not very good at it. I do have a small bench grinder but since I do not have proper jig for holding it at 25 degrees, the cut is very wavy. But I guess it does not have to be perfect. What do you do for your primary bevel? Going through 600 diamond plane to archive a primary bevel takes ages.
It may be worth your while to look at the info on this website as well as others of good repute to see how best to sharpen plane blades. There are numerous techniques but all have a certain baseline of being able to produce bevels and blade backs of any and all kinds accurately.
If you lack a means to produce one element of an accurate blade edge, that element will undermine the making of all the other elements. For example, a good technique for making a secondary bevel won't work if the technique for making the primary bevel is flawed such that it gives a mis-shapen result.
Many can and do sharpen entirely by hand. But this isn't as easy as the experts at it make out! Best to employ some form of jig or guide. There are many, for grinding wheels and belts but also for use with all kinds of hand shaping.
Primary bevels can need a lot of work but modern "sandpapers" made for shaping very hard materials work well in their very rough grades. Consider 3M stuff on a float glass or MDF surface as an inexpensive option.
It still takes time and effort, mind. Also, it's best to use a jig. The less expensive kind can be good enough if you find a decent quality kind. Avoid the really cheap ones with wobble and dolloped-on paint.
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If you take the time to read up on blade sharpening, you'll find techniques that use secondary and tertiary bevels in such a way that re-shaping of the primary bevel should be a relatively rare need - unless you're using a plane 7 hours a day for 5 days a week.
As an amateur maker, I find I have to re-shape a primary bevel once in a blue moon. Stropping then reshaping (tiny) secondary and tertiary bevels takes very little time and doesn't need a new primary bevel for months or even years.
On the other hand, I do have a lot of planes sharing the planing jobs. :-)
Lataxe
So if I understand you correctly, when your blade is dull, you just go and sharpen the secondary bevel, and once it is too long, you go up another degree or two and produce a tertiary bevel?
I have three planes: Stanley 4, Stanley 6 and Stanley 4 1/2. 4 and 6 have spare blades.
What kind of 3M sandpaper would you recommend to use when trying to remove a lot of steel quickly?
Hi Starideda,
After years of trying every sharpening technique and gubbins I could find, I ended up having most plane blades with a ground (and left relatively rough) primary bevel with a +1 degree secondary bevel and a +2 degree tertiary bevel, as well as a single and very tiny back bevel on dead flat but not super-polished blade backs. It helps to buy blades sold as already dead flat, such as Veritas and Lie-Nielsen.
The +1 and +2 degree bevels suit my use of a Veritas honing guide which easily allows those small changes in angle to be kept via its eccentric roller device. You can achieve a similar effect by sharpening secondary and tertiary bevels using two thin substrates 0f different thickness under an ordinary honing guide wheel.
The advantages are that the primary bevel needn't be remade for ages and can be made relatively unpolished to start with, as the secondary and tertiary bevels are what get highly polished to form a good cutting edge free of scratch-pits or other deformations.
The secondary and tertiary bevels are kept as small as possible, to enable faster re-honing and re-sharpening with no need to remove lots of metal. The secondary bevel needs to big enough to remove any scratches still present on the primary bevel at the blade edge.
The back bevel is necessary because taking only teeny amounts from the tertiary bevel means that the wear on the blade-back side of the edge won't be removed by just sharpening the top bevel. The blade back needs it's own teeny bevel to remove that wear-bevel.
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Others have different approaches, from resharpening the whole of one bevel (removes a lot of metal and therefore doesn't need a back bevel if the back is polished and flat) to using a hollow-ground primary bevel as a guide to hand sharpen a secondary bevel (which also tends to remove a lot of metal and therefore obviates the need for a back bevel if the back is flat and polished).
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3M sandpapers I use are these sort:
https://www.workshopheaven.com/search.php?search_query=3M
Lataxe
I also got thinner shavings once I sharpened the blade of my old Stanley 4 1/2 which I guess will be used as a smoothing plane from now on.
“[Deleted]”
I think Tormeks are great for some things. Just offering a different experience. My Tormek has sat in an outbuilding, unused for years. Too slow, too messy, too much fiddling with all the accessories.
That being said there was a time when I had Tormek jig arms on my grinders and was set up to go from grinder to Tormek without adjusting much. It really sped things along. Once I moved shops I found I could get sharp quickly and reliably with a few stones and a jig so I never set the wet grinder up again. I really ought to get it to someone who will use it.
I sold my Tormek a couple of years ago, in a shop purge. It also had been colle ting dust, for the same reasons you mentioned. Bench stones are much faster and much better for planes and chisels. Turning tools get sharpened on a regular grinder with CBN wheels.
sjeff70 | Aug 12, 2023 09:21am | #25
.......I think Rob Cosman's method is worth looking at for new comers.
I transitioned to the Cosman method a couple years ago, after many years using scary sharp then abrasive film on glass. I'm a believer. It's quick and effective. I added a 6,000 grit intermediate stone between the 1,000 and 16,000. The 1000 doesn't get much use other than refreshing a primary bevel or repairing a damaged edge.
32 seconds ain’t bad either 😊
So how do you find new posts when a member doesn’t respond to the last post in a thread. You scan every post in the thread and analyze dates and times for the most current?
Yup.
It’s clunky but on my browser I go to URL bar at top and type #49 (for example) and a little dialogue box shows and at the bottom of that it says “find on this page” and that brings me right to the most recent post (assuming that post is #49)
@ Starideda:
Regarding your request for 3M papers. Here in the US you can get them from Taylor Tools. https://taytools.com/collections/brands-3m-abrasives-lapping-microfinishing-film
For quickly removing metal you can use Porter Cable adhesive backed roll sandpaper. Stick it to a known flat surface like the table saw or such. David weaver demonstrates one method here. Using 80 grit works well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOMjSwcEnsU
Good luck and glad you're getting great sharp edges now.