Hi All,
I recently mentioned to my father that I would like to get some hand planes and learn how to properly use and care for them (as I’ve been a power tool guy ’til now). He mentioned that he had a couple planes that I could have, but didn’t know what they were. He brought me a Stanley 110 block plane and what I believe is a Bailey No. 4 bench plane. I’m not 100% sure about the ID of the bench plane because Bailey is cast into the base, but it says Stanley on the chipbreaker. I’m guessing that someone put a Stanley chipbreaker on a Bailey plane. I’m particularly curious as to when these planes were made. Are there any markings on them that would allow me to make this determination?
Also, what is the best way to “clean up” these planes and get them ready for use? It’s apparent that at one time someone planed a painted surface with them. Is there anything in particular that I should absolutely NOT use on them? Are blades still available? Are there any parts that should be replaced as a matter of preventative maintenance? Other things to look out for?
As I said, I’m new to the hand tools. Any help y’all could give me to get these planes up and running would be appreciated!
Thanks, Bob
Replies
Hey Bob,
I just crossed over to the hand tool spectrum also. Good luck...as newbies to hand tools, it kinda sucks having to learn all the "stuff" that's out there.
Jeff
My understanding is that 'Bailey' was the inventor and orginal maker of planes. Stanley bought him out and continued to use the 'Bailey" name for the type of planes they were making. 'Bailey' has become a kind of descriptive term of all iron planes. It is not uncommon to have a Stanely plane with a 'Bailey" marking on it as well. There are some web sites that can be very helpful IDing planes.Dan Carroll
Bob
It is quite common to have a Bailey plane with a Stanley lever cap. Stanley bought Bailey quite a while back. I'm not a historian, and don't wish to be inaccurate, so I'll leave that story to someone else.
Welcome to the slippery slope of handtools. Once you slide down, there's no turning back. Before you know, you'll have planes for various functions hiding in every corner of your shop!
I am of the ilk of mixing power tools with hand tools to make the best furniture I can at the fastest pace. There are many functions that a well tuned hand plane can outperform a, well, to borrow a term from Mr. Wallace, "woodmuncher with a tail." (that's a footnote to you, Mike! no plagerism here!)
If you really want to learn alot, I highly recommend The Handplane Book, by Garrett Hack, published by our hosts, Taunton. I've read them all, and in my opinion, this is the best one out there on the who's, what's, where's, when's, and why's of hand planes. You'll use the book as a reference guide for years to come, and it discusses all types of planes, as well as how to tune them.
Have fun. I'll leave the other 99% that needs to be said to your future reading, as well as what my fine comrades here will bring to the forum.
Enjoy,
Jeff
Go to http://www.supertools.com and look there. Patrick has info for dating most of the Stanley & Bailey planes. There are some obvious things to look for and they will be included in the site's text and photos. If you can post a photo, someone here can probably determine the date, too.
Also, if you do a detailed search here, there is a lot of info and lots of threads on restoring these planes.
Since I haven't seen anyone say it yet, Welcome to The Dark Side of woodworking, or 'handraulics', as one put it.
I restore Stanley planes all the time. As others have pointed out, your Baileys are Stanleys. Leonard Bailey manufacturered hand planes and invented the frog mechanism for adjusting the blade. Stanley Rule and Level Co bought his company out and put his name on the front in rememberance to him. There's more to the story but I'll stop there.
To clean the plane take the whole thing apart and clean the body with WD-40. Take 220 grit sandpaper soaked with WD-40 and sand the rust off the sides of the bed. Flatten the sole by gluing 150 grit sandpaper to any flat service like glass (a piece of laminated MDF works well for me) and sand the bottom until the entire thing is flat. Clean the rest of the plane with a wire wheel or a rust remover disc sold in auto supply stores in a drill press. Make sure you're not too aggressive with the disc or you'll put scratches in the metal that you won't be able to get out. Once you have all the metal cleaned up with the disc, go over it again with 220 grit sandpaper soaked in WD-40 to clean up the fine scratches.
To take the paint chips off the plane all you need is a flat head screwdriver and poke them off. The jappaning underneath the paint splatter should be strong enough not chip away from the bed. Clean the handles of your plane with steel wool and put some oil or shellac on them if you want. If your rear handle is cracked you'll need to reglue it with woodworkers glue. A Bessey clamp works well for this. Sharpen the blade or buy a new thicker Hock or Lie-Nielsen blade and reassemble the plane. Mess around with the blade adjustment until you shave off paper thin shavings and you're back in business.
The story goes...
1869 - Stanley Rule & Level Company purchasee Bailey, Chaney and Co. of Boston Mass. Bailey was producing planes based on his own patents. Stanley acquired the right to manufacture tools under Bailey's patents.
Early 1875 - Justace Traut working for Stanley, patents the No.110 block plane Stanley has had in production for several months. Bailey claims sales of the plane cut into his royalties and the contract between Bailey and Stanley is terminated.
Summer 1875 - Leonard Bailey begins development of the 'Victor' plane line to compete with the Stanley/Bailey planes still in production by Stanley. Fighting between Bailey and the Stanley Co. over patent infringement is bitter, Stanley makes every attempt to stop Bailey from producing the Victor line of tools.
July 1884 - Stanley purchases the remains of the struggling Victor Plane Co. from Leonard Bailey along with manufacturing machinery and remaining inventory which they offer in their catalogue of that year. LEONARD BAILEY ends more than 30 years as a carpenter's tool inventor and manufacturer and spends the rest of his long productive life in the manufacture of copy presses.
Stanley Rule and Level Co. continues to produce tools many of which are invented and developed by the brilliant plant superintendent Justus Traut. Stanley eventually sells the remaining stock of Victor and Defiance tools and in 1906 after Bailey's death, commemorates Bailey by casting his name in their standard line of bench planes.
This was exerpted and paraphrased from a piece by Philip Whitby that appeared in the 1996 Toolshop Auction Catalogue and reprinted at the antiquetools.co.uk site
Best Regards,
David C
Thanks David, I knew it was complicated. Thats why I didn't even try.
It's not difficult at all, just a "little" elbow grease, some glass, sandpaper and lots of BRAKLEEN and/or WD-40. It's not exactly fun and can be rather messy, but the rewards are more than worth it. And, you'll know that plane like the back of your hand. See my post on the Stanley #4 Bench Plane thread in here.
When you see that wispy see through shaving peel off the wood the first time................OH MY!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"I restore Stanley planes all the time." I'm hoping Bob won't mind if I address a few question to you, then. I just went through a bunch of planes that have been sitting around since my auction days years ago "Keep" "Toss" "Keep" "Toss." I have a few ?'s. First of all, who-all made planes like the Stanleys, but unlabelled. I know Craftsman did, 3 of the planes have Craftsman blades, but are remarkably like the Stanleys (measurements, design). Anyone else? One blade says "Dunlap approved" on it.
Did Stanley make any of the Craftsman planes?
Also, of the planes that are broken or missing too many parts to bother with (and they're unmarked), 3 have good blades on them -- not chipped, seemingly close to the original length). What's a good destiny for these blades? Find a body? Make my own plane? I just hate to toss 'em.
Thanks. (Sorry Bob)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
That's a good question forestgirl! I have heard that Stanley private labeled some planes for other companies but which companies they were or whether it was just the parts of the plane ie; brass adjustment screws, threaded rods, lever cap..etc.. I'm not sure. I know Fulton and Dunlap were sold under the Sears Roebuck company and later became known as Craftsman. Maybe that's where all your planes came from.
Basically when it comes to collectable bench planes the ones that are most desired that look like a regular Stanley plane are Keen Kutters, Millers Falls and just recently, Record has been gaining some interest. Every other plane manufacturer like Craftsman, Fulton, Dunlap, Montgomery Wards, Shapliegh Diamond Edge, etc... don't seem to attract many buyers for them to be considered collectable. As far as the unmarked plane blades you have, you could list them all at once on eBay and you may get $10-20 for all three blades for someone who just wants a good deal on spare blades.
Thanks! I'm not so interested in collectibility -- more in how good the planes are to use. I'm guessing that the old Craftsman planes were probably pretty good, no?
One of the planes I have is a Craftsman rabbet/filletster plane, almost exactly like the Stanley #78 (very slight discrepancy in size, based on Patrick Leache's info.) It has all its parts, and the blade is in great condition. The only concern I have is that the post that holds the fence wiggles a little in the hole it screws into. Questions are (a) does that matter when putting plane to wood (e.g., will the wood pretty much force it into a stable position and (b) is there anything I can do about it?
The other ones that are on the "keep" list are a Craftsman Jack Plane, corrugated sole, slightly rusty but certainly restorable; a Stanley 60-1/2 block plane (the 60-1/4 is missing 1 part; not as well-designed anyway, but much older); a Craftsman block plane that's a bit bigger; a no-name #4 smoothing plane that needs a blade and lever cap.
The Bed Rock 605 will probably go to eBay, or to a local auction that's coming up soon (if the same guy shows up as to the last auction, maybe I'll get $200, ROFL!!). There's even an old Bailey 24 transitional plane, not in too great of shape though.
Final question: Is there a source for parts info that would tell me, for instance, if I have a lever cap that's got the numbers 307 and 306 stamped on it, what plane it belongs to, and if I have a blade that's 2" wide x 1-5/8" long, with x number of grooves in the back, what it would fit?? Nah, I'm not asking much, eh?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
J, $225+ for the bedrock if it's a clean user more if it's mint like. Time and day of sale is everything. The 306 thing sounds like sargent as mine and a fulton have similar #'s. the ladder back slots (just like your #78 should be) are for iron adjustment, ask Ron Hock or see if there is one specified in the LN list of non LN replacement irons. BTW I have a flat top #608 with a plain (no name) stanley cap.
I am curious, what do you have for a #5 if you are selling the #605? All the best, Paddy
Hi, Paddy. Ahhh, if I'm selling the 605. Therein lies the question. If I can find a tote and a blade for it, it will be complete. Doesn't look like they're going all that high these days though (eBay of course). Although, there aren't any Type 6's in the completed list at the moment. Looks like the fractional ones (605-1/4) are hot though.
The 605 is a jack plane, and I have an old Craftsman jack plane that might work just as well. Sounds like the 605 is pretty easy in it's adjustments? I'm mostly into "what works well" not what's collectible. I dunno, whadya think???forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
J, the knob and tote can be had for $30 with instructions for fitting (if necessary) from Hyland hardware and it fits #4 to #8. You could also chat with the LV elves who have a "bench planes" set for $17.50 to see if its for the old stuff as all their other listings say Veritas but #05p40.03. The iron is either a Hock or LN non LN replacement iron .
But ya should wait and see what the other fella has from his grand dad's broken #605. I would keep the #605 over the other for it's weight and chatterless qualities if it is cleanable and has a cleanable mouth. Oops I forgot to ask. Is it with round or flat top cheeks on the sides? Round is older, flat top is a better frog adjustment. But then you knew that if you looked at the "blood and guts" site. I didn"t look up type 6 , have to go make supper. Paddy
Edited 1/11/2007 7:08 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
Hi, Paddy. It's a flat-top, Type 6A from what I can tell at Bob Kaune's site. You and my friend Len have pretty much convinced me to keep it, but I'd love to get close-to-original parts on it!
The Craftsman plane is wider, seems like I could put a blade in it that's ground to be more of a scrub-plane blade couldn't I?? (hope that wasn't a dumb question)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
fg, Craftsman planes are just as good as Stanleys. Stanleys are mainly more collectable and hence, worth more money, simply because of the product breadth and depth Stanley had as well as a couple of different books written by Allen Selvins and John Walter that help identify and value the different models that were available in the marketplace.
Your 78 is fine as long as the fence doesn't move when you use it. As far doing anything about the wiggle, depends on how much wiggle you got. Threads may be a little stripped and the bolt won't tighten properly but like you said, if it doesn't move when you use it I wouldn't worry too much about it.
As far as a source of info on plane parts, the only suggestion is to find the Stanley Tools Guide to Identity & Value second edition by John Walter. His book goes into detail about different characteristics on planes that will help you narrow down what you're looking for. The only problem is that the book is out of print and copies fetch over $200 on eBay.
Thanks, MV. Actually, I "fixed" the wiggle. Must have been half-asleep when I put it in the box last night, retightened it this afternoon and it was fine.
Hah, hah, hah -- I ain't spending no $200 on a book about planes. Thank heavens I'm not the "collecting" sort. I did find that an early #18 that has a broken body came equipped with a Sweetheart blade, gives me a little cheer.
I'm on the hunt for a tote and blade for my Bed Rock 605, Type 6......see ya.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG
I've got a busted up 605 that was my grandfather's. The only things not broken on this plane are the blade, cap iron and frog. You are welcome to them if you want. The rest of the plane needs to be pitched. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
That'd be great! Is it the Type 6? The cap just says BED ROCK, no Stanley on it?? May not matter -- I think the iron size is the same unless you have one of the fractional models.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/11/2007 7:13 pm by forestgirl
I don't know what type it is, but the blade will fit. It's at my Dad's house, and I'm going out to see him tomorrow. I'll pick up the pieces and bring it home. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Thanks, Tom!! Drop me an email.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forestgirl,
I would recommend saving the planes for parts to repair other planes you might get in the future. The blades, if they are the right size, can often be fitted into planes made by other manufacturers. Both Millers Falls and Sargeant planes were as good as or even better made than the Stanleys, other brands I'm not so sure.
Most of the Craftsman planes were actually made by Sargeant and are very good tools. I own at least a dozen planes and only a few of them are Stanleys, most are Sargeant or Craftsman, a couple are Millers Falls. If you are going to scrap the Craftsman planes, talk to me first and give me a price, I might have you add them to the package you are sending me, I'm restoring a Sargeant plane that could use new handles.
John White
Bob, to date your plane go to this site:
http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/dating/
It has a flowchart that you use to determine the "type" or period of manufacture of your Bailey by looking at key design features. Great resource.
Others have given you tips on what to do. If they are not badly rusted it doesn't take much time, just some elbow grease. I prefer a nylon brush wheel in my drill press to remove light surface rust and it nearly polishes the surface. I use that for all the pieces after disassembling it. Garret Hack's book is a great resource (go to bookcloseouts.com and get it half price)
The big issue is to make sure there is little or no pitting in the sole, lap it smooth on a surface that is flat (low spots will show up quickly when they don't get smoother), and no chips around the mouth. Hack's book will go into more detail of setting up and tuning the plane (frog, lever cap, chip breaker, etc).
Jake
Hi Bob.... If it's a Stanley # 4, it should be 9" long (A #3 is 8" and a #4 1/2 is 10" long). Although knobs and lever caps are interchangable, here are three quick dating items.
1 Look at the front knob. If it is short and squat, it is pre 1922. 2 Check the lever cap. If the 'keyway' is straight, it is pre 1933. After '33 they went to the 'kidney shaped' keyway.
3 Also, Stanley put the 'Stanley' name on the lever cap in 1925.
For the block plane... If the knob is rosewood, it dates from 1925 top 1947. The nickle plated lever cap was 1939 to 1958, Dark blue with grey cap Aprox 1962.
The #4 was produced, starting in 1870 and the #110 Block plane started in 1876.
Hope this helps.... SawdustSteve
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